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@Oppiska
" The one thing that sets GSL apart from any other tourney is that all the good Koreans are there. "
This was probably a valid argument in 2013/2014, who would win Blizzcon if not Serral or one of the 8 koreans that went there?
Gumiho?Innovation?soO? I can't think of anyone else who I'd give a 1% chance of winning.
Code S in 2013/2014 is completely different than Code S now, Korea is extremely top heavy, which is why even Foreigners who aren't even that great in WCS can qualify.
It's really hard to argue Serral isn't the best player now, you can argue he wasnt the best across the year, but right now it's a bit silly.
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On November 06 2018 04:11 terribleplayer1 wrote:
@Oppiska
" The one thing that sets GSL apart from any other tourney is that all the good Koreans are there. "
This was probably a valid argument in 2013/2014, who would win Blizzcon if not Serral or one of the 8 koreans that went there?
Gumiho?Innovation?soO? I can't think of anyone else who I'd give a 1% chance of winning.
Code S in 2013/2014 is completely different than Code S now, Korea is extremely top heavy, which is why even Foreigners who aren't even that great in WCS can qualify.
It's really hard to argue Serral isn't the best player now, you can argue he wasnt the best across the year, but right now it's a bit silly.
Honestly looking at this year's GSL, you might have a point here that the variance in GSL playoffs has gone down and the subset of suspects has gotten smaller, in particular looking at the last two Ro4s for example. On the other hand, I disagree with this approach of "who do you think would win" where you try to arbitrarily pretict skill of players. Do I need to remind you that Seed, Snpier and Roro each have a GSL trophy? That is what has always mattered, the depth. It is possible that we lost it, but I would still prefer that to be explicitly proven by foreigners coming in and being able to take it head on.
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On November 06 2018 04:33 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 04:11 terribleplayer1 wrote:
@Oppiska
" The one thing that sets GSL apart from any other tourney is that all the good Koreans are there. "
This was probably a valid argument in 2013/2014, who would win Blizzcon if not Serral or one of the 8 koreans that went there?
Gumiho?Innovation?soO? I can't think of anyone else who I'd give a 1% chance of winning.
Code S in 2013/2014 is completely different than Code S now, Korea is extremely top heavy, which is why even Foreigners who aren't even that great in WCS can qualify.
It's really hard to argue Serral isn't the best player now, you can argue he wasnt the best across the year, but right now it's a bit silly. Honestly looking at this year's GSL, you might have a point here that the variance in GSL playoffs has gone down and the subset of suspects has gotten smaller, in particular looking at the last two Ro4s for example. On the other hand, I disagree with this approach of "who do you think would win" where you try to arbitrarily pretict skill of players. Do I need to remind you that Seed, Snpier and Roro each have a GSL trophy? That is what has always mattered, the depth. It is possible that we lost it, but I would still prefer that to be explicitly proven by foreigners coming in and being able to take it head on.
Scarlett made ro8 lmao
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On November 06 2018 01:50 opisska wrote:
Seriously, I am disgusted with how much "partisanship" has gotten into this discussion. There is a group of people blindly supporting the case for Serral being the best player now/this year/ever (hope not) and any argument against that is being presented as "being against Serral". Have you people been visiting the US politics megathread too much lately to get into this kind of needlessly heated rhetoric? Can you even imagine that it is possible that other people just have opinions without "pushing an agenda" or did the current political climate completely destroy the ability of people to discuss anything in a civil way"?
I find this so funny, because politics have adopted the mentality of sports teams competing against each other with all the entertainment that comes with it, and that's the environment populists are thriving in right now. You making fun of esports drama by comparing it to politics is like we've come a full circle.
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im late to the party. Congrats to Serral. what an incredible year. But looking at the brackets. Wouldn't winning a GSL be much harder than winning Blizzcon? Not taking anything away from Serral.
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On November 06 2018 07:18 tofupandas wrote:
im late to the party. Congrats to Serral. what an incredible year. But looking at the brackets. Wouldn't winning a GSL be much harder than winning Blizzcon? Not taking anything away from Serral.
Looking at the bracket alone? sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats, is approximately as difficult as the average GSL bracket these days I'd say.
I can appreciate arguments about the format and preparation involved in a GSL vs the Blizzcon Format, but as far as the competition goes, I don't think that's a valid argument here.
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Serral is definitely the best player of 2018.
I'd argue it was the best single year of any SC2 player.
I'd also argue he needs a strong (doesn't have to be AS dominant) year next year to make him the best SC2 player of all time.
I think this is a pretty fair assessment.
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On November 03 2018 23:50 buffzerg33 wrote:
Serral 2-0 sOs
Serral 2-0 Zest
Serral 3-0 Dark
Serral 3-0 Rogue
Serral 4-0 Stats
Best player in history of SC2 is not from Korea.
that was kinda close man xD
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On November 06 2018 07:36 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 07:18 tofupandas wrote:
im late to the party. Congrats to Serral. what an incredible year. But looking at the brackets. Wouldn't winning a GSL be much harder than winning Blizzcon? Not taking anything away from Serral. Looking at the bracket alone? sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats, is approximately as difficult as the average GSL bracket these days I'd say. I can appreciate arguments about the format and preparation involved in a GSL vs the Blizzcon Format, but as far as the competition goes, I don't think that's a valid argument here.
Nearly all the Koreans are better suited for a GSL style tournament, and honestly it's their best chance against Serral at the moment. I think in any weekend tournament Serral is the favorite right now, if he wins a straight GSL we have an actual legend on our hands.
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On November 05 2018 04:23 LordYama wrote:
People have become so used to Koreans always being the best players that they can't wrap their minds around a Westerner becoming the best player for even one year and their brains broke, apparently.
There's nothing genetic about Koreans why they should be the best players in SC/SC2. I always assumed it was due to the fact that they had the biggest competitive scene with money tournaments dating back to Broodwar giving a large group of players incentive to train and practice really hard to refine their skills.
The most impressive thing to me about Serral is that he was able to reach a level to compete with and beat these players without having to train in Korea for an extended period of time.
Impressive yes. But best player of 2018 no. One only need to rewatch all of Maru's 3 Code S GSL runs, especially the first two.
without having to train in Korea for an extended period of time
Indeed. Maybe foreigners have stepped it up. Maybe those who trained and lived in Korea for years now gave Serral his practice.
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On November 05 2018 09:13 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral. Why bm me in the spoiler? I thought it was pretty clear, Maru trashed him at WESG which happened probably around GSL S1 so acting like players at GSL S1/2/3 avoided him is stupid because he was actually losing during S1 times (and maybe S2?)
It's not like Serral was even bad then though. He beat Classic 3-1 to get 3rd at WESG. So he placed two places behind Maru at WESG, he tied Maru for 3rd/4th at IEM Katowice, he placed 2 places higher than Maru at GSL vs the World, and he placed 5-7 places higher at BlizzCon.
So, I dunno if we can point to ONE tournament where he got "trashed" (IE: placed 3rd out of 64...) and declare that that result disqualifies him.
Just my two cents.
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Serral 2:0 sOs
sOs 3:0 Maru
= Serral 5:0 Maru
Clear math right here 
On a more serious note:
Serral is the best in the world right now, but he wasn't all year. I mean he is world champion. That title kinda indicates that.
If the only thing against this is a year old tournament, then sorry korean elitist ppl. No. Just no
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On November 06 2018 04:11 terribleplayer1 wrote:
@Oppiska
" The one thing that sets GSL apart from any other tourney is that all the good Koreans are there. "
This was probably a valid argument in 2013/2014, who would win Blizzcon if not Serral or one of the 8 koreans that went there?
Gumiho?Innovation?soO? I can't think of anyone else who I'd give a 1% chance of winning.
Code S in 2013/2014 is completely different than Code S now, Korea is extremely top heavy, which is why even Foreigners who aren't even that great in WCS can qualify.
It's really hard to argue Serral isn't the best player now, you can argue he wasnt the best across the year, but right now it's a bit silly.
but still Serral is just one player who is peaking now, maybe he will fall as hard as rogue after blizzcon or even if he keeps playing like now, the rest of WCS is not as good as the last koreans players that still remains.
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France12875 Posts
On November 06 2018 16:00 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 09:13 Poopi wrote:On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral. Why bm me in the spoiler? I thought it was pretty clear, Maru trashed him at WESG which happened probably around GSL S1 so acting like players at GSL S1/2/3 avoided him is stupid because he was actually losing during S1 times (and maybe S2?) It's not like Serral was even bad then though. He beat Classic 3-1 to get 3rd at WESG. So he placed two places behind Maru at WESG, he tied Maru for 3rd/4th at IEM Katowice, he placed 2 places higher than Maru at GSL vs the World, and he placed 5-7 places higher at BlizzCon. So, I dunno if we can point to ONE tournament where he got "trashed" (IE: placed 3rd out of 64...) and declare that that result disqualifies him. Just my two cents.
Losing 0-3 means being trashed by an opponent, placing badly means underperforming at an event.
Just as Maru got trashed by sOs at BlizzCon, Serral got trashed by Maru (and Classic earlier before) at the beginning of the year so it would be utterly stupid to think Serral would have won GSL S1 (and a bit delusional for S2/S3 but S3 was a bit more probable)
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It would be pointless for Serral to go to Korea mid season, whereas at the start of the year he wasn't good enough to hope for a GSL win; i agree that he could have won GSL 3, but he has plenty of time for that.
Staying home and practicing in WCS environment while winning everything was the most logical solution, one that paid off very well in the end.
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On November 06 2018 19:57 Poopi wrote:
Losing 0-3 means being trashed by an opponent, placing badly means underperforming at an event.
Just as Maru got trashed by sOs at BlizzCon, Serral got trashed by Maru (and Classic earlier before) at the beginning of the year so it would be utterly stupid to think Serral would have won GSL S1 (and a bit delusional for S2/S3 but S3 was a bit more probable)
Serral got "trashed" by Classic, then 13 days later beat him 3-1. If you want to use the term "trashed" to describe losing 3-0 thats fine, but dont think it implies that the same result is inevitable if the games were repeated.
I am sure Maru could easily win vs sOs if the series was repeated today, in fact I would probably say he would be a favourite in such a repeated series? Do you think it is "utterly stupid" to think Maru would win a GSL held now because he lost that series to sOs?
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France12875 Posts
On November 06 2018 22:10 rjpageuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 19:57 Poopi wrote:
Losing 0-3 means being trashed by an opponent, placing badly means underperforming at an event.
Just as Maru got trashed by sOs at BlizzCon, Serral got trashed by Maru (and Classic earlier before) at the beginning of the year so it would be utterly stupid to think Serral would have won GSL S1 (and a bit delusional for S2/S3 but S3 was a bit more probable) Serral got "trashed" by Classic, then 13 days later beat him 3-1. If you want to use the term "trashed" to describe losing 3-0 thats fine, but dont think it implies that the same result is inevitable if the games were repeated. I am sure Maru could easily win vs sOs if the series was repeated today, in fact I would probably say he would be a favourite in such a repeated series? Do you think it is "utterly stupid" to think Maru would win a GSL held now because he lost that series to sOs?
I'm just saying that acting like Maru would never win 3 GSL if Serral competed in it is plain stupid
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As you said, no contest for GSL 1. Most likely GSL 2 as well but not sure; GSL 3, totally debatable since Serral was already the one who won BlizzCon.
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On November 06 2018 19:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 16:00 TheDougler wrote:On November 05 2018 09:13 Poopi wrote:On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral. Why bm me in the spoiler? I thought it was pretty clear, Maru trashed him at WESG which happened probably around GSL S1 so acting like players at GSL S1/2/3 avoided him is stupid because he was actually losing during S1 times (and maybe S2?) It's not like Serral was even bad then though. He beat Classic 3-1 to get 3rd at WESG. So he placed two places behind Maru at WESG, he tied Maru for 3rd/4th at IEM Katowice, he placed 2 places higher than Maru at GSL vs the World, and he placed 5-7 places higher at BlizzCon. So, I dunno if we can point to ONE tournament where he got "trashed" (IE: placed 3rd out of 64...) and declare that that result disqualifies him. Just my two cents. Losing 0-3 means being trashed by an opponent, placing badly means underperforming at an event. Just as Maru got trashed by sOs at BlizzCon, Serral got trashed by Maru (and Classic earlier before) at the beginning of the year so it would be utterly stupid to think Serral would have won GSL S1 (and a bit delusional for S2/S3 but S3 was a bit more probable)
Serral lost to Maru at WESG because Ravens were OP. When they played on a proper patch Serral always won easily (Katowice qualifier and GSL vs the world).
The impressive thing is that he does it with the weakest race (no GSL win in LotV) while Maru plays the strongest race (5 GSLs in a row won by a terran) and still doesn't have anywhere the results of Serral.
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On November 07 2018 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 19:57 Poopi wrote:On November 06 2018 16:00 TheDougler wrote:On November 05 2018 09:13 Poopi wrote:On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral. Why bm me in the spoiler? I thought it was pretty clear, Maru trashed him at WESG which happened probably around GSL S1 so acting like players at GSL S1/2/3 avoided him is stupid because he was actually losing during S1 times (and maybe S2?) It's not like Serral was even bad then though. He beat Classic 3-1 to get 3rd at WESG. So he placed two places behind Maru at WESG, he tied Maru for 3rd/4th at IEM Katowice, he placed 2 places higher than Maru at GSL vs the World, and he placed 5-7 places higher at BlizzCon. So, I dunno if we can point to ONE tournament where he got "trashed" (IE: placed 3rd out of 64...) and declare that that result disqualifies him. Just my two cents. Losing 0-3 means being trashed by an opponent, placing badly means underperforming at an event. Just as Maru got trashed by sOs at BlizzCon, Serral got trashed by Maru (and Classic earlier before) at the beginning of the year so it would be utterly stupid to think Serral would have won GSL S1 (and a bit delusional for S2/S3 but S3 was a bit more probable) Serral lost to Maru at WESG because Ravens were OP. When they played on a proper patch Serral always won easily (Katowice qualifier and GSL vs the world). The impressive thing is that he does it with the weakest race (no GSL win in LotV) while Maru plays the strongest race (5 GSLs in a row won by a terran) and still doesn't have anywhere the results of Serral.
that Katowice qualifier game is completely meaningless and i still can't believe people bring it up to try to prove some point
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EPT
