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France12785 Posts
On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral.
Why bm me in the spoiler?
I thought it was pretty clear, Maru trashed him at WESG which happened probably around GSL S1 so acting like players at GSL S1/2/3 avoided him is stupid because he was actually losing during S1 times (and maybe S2?)
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On November 05 2018 08:53 Fighter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts. Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case.
For that matter, Maru, also mentioned that he (Maru, not Serral) had to win Blizzcon in order to be considered among the all time greats.
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On November 05 2018 12:58 LordYama wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 08:53 Fighter wrote:On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts. Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case. For that matter, Maru, also mentioned that he (Maru, not Serral) had to win Blizzcon in order to be considered among the all time greats.
But he won the GSLs, the tournament based in the country where he resides. Since Serral hasn't fundamentally changed his life, moved to another country, and competed in that tournament, he clearly can't be considered the best.
Right?
(not directed at you, to the other "Serral has to win GSL" people)
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I would suggest that people should just stop responding to those who still downplay Serral and keep moving the goalposts. Their position was obviously made way before, is completely immovable, and no amount of winning will convince them to change their stance. At this point, they're an extremely loud minority. Let them live in denial.
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On November 05 2018 08:53 Fighter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts. Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case.
Didn't he say he's considering going to Korea in 2019?
Still no info on next year's WCS?
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On November 05 2018 21:29 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 08:53 Fighter wrote:On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts. Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case. Didn't he say he's considering going to Korea in 2019? Still no info on next year's WCS?
Maybe when WCS is not announced, there won't be any hard decision as to which region to compete in 
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On November 05 2018 03:40 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 02:18 xongnox wrote:On November 04 2018 11:15 TheDougler wrote:On November 04 2018 11:12 Alchemik wrote:
Serral is boring to watch. People are only excited because he's a foreigner. Plain and simple racism.
Every top-korean from last 8 years could have done the same as him : win WCS without others koreans, win 1 Korea weekender and a Blizcon. (Rogue, Life, etc.). Versus Koreans not knowing his play-style. And a Blizcon with a very good group and drawing (ZvZ obv his best MU vs koreans ) Lol, that's straight-up delusional. Ignoring all the ridiculous stuff afterwards, what about his play do you find boring? Well, everything in his play is boring. He plays near perfect, but a boring near perfect. Fundamentally, he plays a patchzerg style, his strategy from the start to the ultra late game already carved in stone before the game begin, and a classic macro one. His mindset is something along the line : as long as i'm not dead, i'll follow my plan and proceeds to auto-win. Watching him win everything, you can't help but feel Serral is right; when Z is played right it's the best macro race ever with no need at all for varied play. Still, himself see he's predictable, and when finals comes, mix a all-in or two. He usually looses them, because he his super bad at them. Beyond all-ins, he seldom take on-the-go strategic opportunities and nearly always plays the safest way ( more macro), rarely taking even a little risk. More than 9 times out of 10, you exactly know how he will play before the game even start : perfect macro game until opponent throw himsef out of the game. He never invented a meta, a move, a signature trick, nothing, it's simply the perfect generic foreign zerg. Rogue, Dark, Life, Reynor, Leenock... are way, way more fun to watch (but yeah worst than Serral atm). You know something weird, novel or dangerous can happen. While watching Serral is like watching a (old school) bot. The few good games with Serral is when a top opponent brings himself a bit of chaos (Neeb, Maru, Reynor, some Stats games, etc.). Imagine Serral playing his clone. Would be the most boring game ever, each one camping with lurker.... Like, if Serral is boring to watch you might just not enjoy watching SC2. I guess only zergs players really enjoy watching Serral. He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. Then after a few games watching a bot is not fun. I can tell just from this post that you haven't watched very many Serral matches. You call him bad at all-ins when he used 2 all-ins to beat Stats at GSL vs The World. In fact, his game 7 win was an all-in. You say he's strategically predictable when he pulled a non-standard SH strategy in the finals at Blizzcon and also opted for ling muta in ZvZ, something Serral didn't do much before Blizzcon. You say he just plays macro until his opponents fall to his play, but if you had actually followed Serral's games this year, you'd know he played a lot of long macro games where he clawed out of the very jaws of death. It wasn't his opponents crumbling to him in long, drawn-out macro games he could have finished 10 minutes ago, it was him being resilient and persevering until he could win. I'm Protoss and I love watching Serral. When he takes a lead, he ruthlessly and methodically pulls his opponents apart. When he's behind, he makes the impossible possible. When he looks caught off-guard, like with the nydus game at Blizzcon, he quickly swats it away like he knew it was coming the whole time. It honestly sounds like you watched a handful of games from Blizzcon, filled in the blanks with these easily disprovable assumptions, and decided to write about how boring the world champion is because reasons.
Watched nearly every Serral game since months, thanks.
Basically all your augments support my description. SH strategy are standard EU meta on some maps for months, ling/muta in ZvZ too. *he* didn't play it for long (and struggled vs muta plays) because he opted for only 1 style of play. He now diversify a bit his play...by opting for popular EU ZvZ strategies.
Fine move from him, but not the most innovative players on earth, eh.
People in awe are people watching only a handful of games from Serral. But when you follow the scene he becomes boring to watch : first of all, versus foreigners you know the result before the match even begin, then he plays boringly the same over and over again, and when finally he vary his play it's only for a slightly-less-orthodox, well know meta variation, or some super standard all-in.
Serral is good, on the level of top koreans Blizzcon champions, no doubt. But people are not forced to like his style, mindset, or play.
Serral show something about current zerg witch is a bit disappointing : no need for varied play, mind-games, creativeness or aggressiveness in this race, in total opposition to the two other.
Of course it's not his fault, but we, as fans and casuals players, can dislike that about the state of the game, too.
Btw, Serral, with his korean-like skill, also show that in last years, EU Z meta > KR Z meta, and not only in ZvZ.
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Every player in the world wishes they could play like serral.
Players usually create different playstyles because the standard does not suit them not because they want to be popular with the fans lol
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On November 05 2018 13:56 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 12:58 LordYama wrote:On November 05 2018 08:53 Fighter wrote:On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts. Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case. For that matter, Maru, also mentioned that he (Maru, not Serral) had to win Blizzcon in order to be considered among the all time greats. But he won the GSLs, the tournament based in the country where he resides. Since Serral hasn't fundamentally changed his life, moved to another country, and competed in that tournament, he clearly can't be considered the best. Right? (not directed at you, to the other "Serral has to win GSL" people)
Well, after this edition and the very low number of top-level games or even good games, it's difficult to consider Blizzcon not below a GSL, from a skill/level/etc. standpoint.
Blizzcon is actually 8 koreans, with maybe some not in shape, plus Serral, plus 7 foreign meat.
GSL is at least the 16 top Koreans in shape atm.
Plus format difference not helping Blizzcon imo (maybe too much stress doesn't help either)
You can put $$$, storylines and prestige to blizzcon, that doesn't change that reality : we have seen way more high-level games in every GSL this year than at Blizzcon (thanks Special, TY, Stats for the few good games).
Tbh due to luck/bracket/random shit happening, that was a very poor edition.
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"Blizzcon is actually 8 koreans, with maybe some not in shape, plus Serral, plus 7 foreign meat."
lmao some not in shape.
280k usd first, 140k usd second.
Nah bru gotta rest for that GSL 30k win.
"You can put $$$, storylines and prestige to blizzcon, that doesn't change that reality : we have seen way more high-level games in every GSL this year than at Blizzcon (thanks Special, TY, Stats for the few good games)."
There's way more games in GSL, there's a bunch of trash games in GSL.
Dark vs Gumiho so bad.
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Could you BE any more upset that Maru didn't win?
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On November 06 2018 01:01 terribleplayer1 wrote:
"Blizzcon is actually 8 koreans, with maybe some not in shape, plus Serral, plus 7 foreign meat."
lmao some not in shape.
280k usd first, 140k usd second.
Nah bru gotta rest for that GSL 30k win.
"You can put $$$, storylines and prestige to blizzcon, that doesn't change that reality : we have seen way more high-level games in every GSL this year than at Blizzcon (thanks Special, TY, Stats for the few good games)."
There's way more games in GSL, there's a bunch of trash games in GSL.
Dark vs Gumiho so bad.
I think with not in shape he means that some players lock in their blizzcon spot early in the year and then don't have any notable results for the rest of the year (e.g. Rogue)
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Rogue was still getting ro8 on GSL, can't have every player peaking at the same time, that's impossible someone has to lose.
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sOs was in the best shape he was all year... and I can't think of a single game with sOs at blizzcon that was not terrible.
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The prize money in Blizzcon alone makes any arguments about its significance laughable. Anyone doing this for a living, I don’t even know what they are doing if their motivation, if qualified into it, to win Blizzcon isn’t higher than any other tournament. But sure, GSL, Starleague, whatever.
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On November 06 2018 01:18 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Rogue was still getting ro8 on GSL, can't have every player peaking at the same time, that's impossible someone has to lose.
This is actually the key reason why many people hold GSL is such a high regard and why stuchiu got so much flak for arguing that some old weekenders were equally important because "many good Korean were there". The one thing that sets GSL apart from any other tourney is that all the good Koreans are there. If some of them don't have their best day, it doesn't matter, because there are many others to step in. SC2 isn't a game of "player X beats player Y and he beats player Z all the time", it is a game of high variability. That's why the level a of certain tourney isn't determined by the toughest player to be there, but by the sum of good players present.
That's also why you shouldn't judge the importance of a player's run in a tourney just by the list of their opponents - which is again a thing people do. Ironically, people do it now, with this very tournament, against Serral, so to say, when they speak about not him meeting Maru. Honestly, that just doesn't matter, he was in a tournament with Maru and did better, that's all that matters.
Now for the rest of the discussion.
Seriously, I am disgusted with how much "partisanship" has gotten into this discussion. There is a group of people blindly supporting the case for Serral being the best player now/this year/ever (hope not) and any argument against that is being presented as "being against Serral". Have you people been visiting the US politics megathread too much lately to get into this kind of needlessly heated rhetoric? Can you even imagine that it is possible that other people just have opinions without "pushing an agenda" or did the current political climate completely destroy the ability of people to discuss anything in a civil way"?
I still believe that GSL is the ultimate test of SC2 skill. I have nothing against Serral, I was pumped to see his play and him making history and thoroughly entertained, especially by his games against Rogue and some of the finals games. Some people in this thread seem to have no ability to grasp that those two things can even be combined.
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On November 05 2018 05:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 03:55 Sakat wrote:
Talking how Serral is predictable when Maru literally proxied almost every single game he played this year until it slapped him in the face, and the ones he didn't he mostly lost anyway. I don't know if people have bad memory or they just don't pay attention. Maru barely proxied in seasons 1 and 2, as well as all the events he did well in earlier in the year (katowice, wesg). One proxy per series at the most usually. He only started proxying to an obnoxious degree in season 3. Which was arguably his least dominant run out of all of them.
Yes, Maru, while still having a tendency to fall for proxy and aggression, is the most complete (terran) player ever in SCII.
Best TvZ proxy ? Maru
Best TvP proxys ? Maru
Best TvT proxy ? Maru
Best TvZ late-game (either during the last raven meta or after) ? Maru
Best TvT late-game ? Maru (hell yeah see TY vs Maru BCs game)
Best TvP late-game ? well difficult to say, except one TY game we didn't see that since a year or so lol. Maybe even with TY.
And i guess i don't even need to talk about mid-game aggro (his old HoTs style where he still shines), his sick speedshee/cyclone play, or Maru reinventing the TvP meta 5 times in a year.
The unique domain where he is not the best terran ever is Mech, where Gumiho probably better overall.
Serral is another kind of player, Innovation-style, emotionless bot (maybe remote-controlled by Deepmind ?). But better decision making than Inno tho.
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Yeah Serral is unique but of existing players his approach to the game seems most similar to Innovation to me.
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On November 06 2018 01:47 LordYama wrote:
The prize money in Blizzcon alone makes any arguments about its significance laughable. Anyone doing this for a living, I don’t even know what they are doing if their motivation, if qualified into it, to win Blizzcon isn’t higher than any other tournament. But sure, GSL, Starleague, whatever.
Well, money dosen't do everything.
WESG is the second prize money of the year. It's widely regarded as way less prestigious than GSL and even some foreign weekenders because of the qualification process. (hint : only 2 top Koreans, not even all the best foreigners).
The Korean qualifiers for the WESG spots is way better/more skilled/hight-level play/difficult than the main event itself (where only one korean mirror match import)
Blizzcon is lot of money, but thanks to qualification rules it is not the top 16 players in the wold competing. (when they did that there was like 15 Koreans qualified for 16 spots... ). Plus very strange format.
FYI sOs won it two times.... but never ever won a GSL. sOs can also probably win WCS-without-Serral multiple times with random BS builds.
It's still a very big tourney but making it like it's the world cup and the winner is the best player of the year/ever/bonjwa is plain false, and we never considered it that way last 8 years.
For last 8 years everyone considered GSL the most difficult tournament. Code A players smashed foreign hopes. But now a foreigner Blizzcon win so every metric we use since years to measure players should change, i guess. Haha. How about ending the great separation and watching ? Only way to know for sure.
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On November 06 2018 01:01 Ej_ wrote:
Could you BE any more upset that Maru didn't win?
Friends, love the reference!
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EPT
