Axiom eSports is proud to announce our next in-house tournament featuring the LOTV custom mod!
5 Axiom players and 3 current/former players who has lived in the Axiom Team house will join together to battle it out on the custom mod made by fans. The winner receives a team house coupon that allows them to be treated to a meal from the other members, as well as exemption from chores for a week.
I really hope that players will try out this mod first before going to play it in this tournament. Majority of the times when something like this happens we don't even see something new...
On January 04 2015 21:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: I really hope that players will try out this mod first before going to play it in this tournament. Majority of the times when something like this happens we don't even see something new...
We saw some use of the new units in House of the Swarm.
Hey TB do you have the map set already? I mean do you have Gameheart and the new mineral setups set up correctly, both of them can't be set up with triggers nicely (won't be readily available if you use the LotV extension mod) So i would like to know if you need help on that regard, i'm on the mapmaking group on skype hit me there.
On January 05 2015 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: I don't see any issue at all with changing the maps around frankly, if one of them is awful.
It'd be really cool to either see some newer community maps, or some old fan favourites (like Frost, Whirlwind, Habitation Station, etc). I'm not too sure about these newer ones, especially Secret Spring.
But regardless of the maps, I'll definitely be watching.
On January 05 2015 15:47 Darksoldierr wrote: I think the matches should be played on current map pool, so the focus can stay on the new changes rather than the maps too
That'd change nothing, or at least not have the effect you want it to have since the old maps aren't designed for 12 starting workers and lower minerals.
On January 05 2015 15:47 Darksoldierr wrote: I think the matches should be played on current map pool, so the focus can stay on the new changes rather than the maps too
That'd change nothing, or at least not have the effect you want it to have since the old maps aren't designed for 12 starting workers and lower minerals.
Regardless, can't wait to watch this!
I actually think LotV would work fine on maps from now. I worry that in the future, mapmakers will make 3rd, 4th, and 5th bases way too easy to take and ultimately lessen the effect of the new economy. One of the things I was really excited about with the announcement was that it would help a lot with the deathball problem since players wouldn't be able to have the equivalent of 3 mining bases for most, if not all, of the game, and thus have fewer units and not reach the 200/200 deathball. But if mapmakers make 4+ bases really easy to take and defend, it would be a lot easier to keep on that equivalent 3 base economy and thus I think we would see a lot more of the maxed supply deathballs.
I still think it'd be cool to see it on (HotS) fan favourite maps like Whirlwind or even newer ones like King Sejong or Overgrowth. Viewers already know these maps and tend to like the games they produce, so it would avoid the possible problem of playing on new maps that may not produce very good games.
Olimoley if you need we (TL Mapmakers) can set up a map pool for you to use, it would be very easy to do, but we would need to know what you are searching for, what kind of map pool (standard maps, non-standard maps, or a mixture), how many Blizz maps/Ladder maps would you like to keep and what not.
Also if you have need of cool or good maps you can always reach to Lefix (OP in the MotM threads), me or any other mapmaker and ask him for which maps he thinks are good.
I would love to see a map tournament specifically for lotv used for this tournament, which means higher number of bases, and some features that are better for the new units. Although community maps are always fun to see, and the lotv map pool in the arcade has been really awesome for the most part.
After discussing with the players involved in this tournament, we've decided to increase the map pool to 5 maps and changing the maps to a mix of community and old ladder maps. Thanks for your input everyone, the map pool is:
Whirlwind Isomer Graveside Habitation Station God's Garden
On January 08 2015 11:46 olimoley wrote: After discussing with the players involved in this tournament, we've decided to increase the map pool to 5 maps and changing the maps to a mix of community and old ladder maps. Thanks for your input everyone, the map pool is:
Whirlwind Isomer Graveside Habitation Station God's Garden
Excellent! I like this map pool a lot. I'm looking forward to this so much.
On January 08 2015 11:46 olimoley wrote: After discussing with the players involved in this tournament, we've decided to increase the map pool to 5 maps and changing the maps to a mix of community and old ladder maps. Thanks for your input everyone, the map pool is:
Whirlwind Isomer Graveside Habitation Station God's Garden
On January 09 2015 13:47 olimoley wrote: TRUE will be replaced with Miya due to an unexpected extended stay at his family house where he does not have access to a computer.
On January 09 2015 13:47 olimoley wrote: TRUE will be replaced with Miya due to an unexpected extended stay at his family house where he does not have access to a computer.
On January 09 2015 13:47 olimoley wrote: TRUE will be replaced with Miya due to an unexpected extended stay at his family house where he does not have access to a computer.
Miya's playing again? I thought he retired.
He's as retired as TheSTC
Though, at this point, STC is only slightly more retired than Choya.
On January 08 2015 11:46 olimoley wrote: After discussing with the players involved in this tournament, we've decided to increase the map pool to 5 maps and changing the maps to a mix of community and old ladder maps. Thanks for your input everyone, the map pool is:
Whirlwind Isomer Graveside Habitation Station God's Garden
Oh cool. Would love to see some games on Isomer and happy Graveside is in there too!
On January 04 2015 21:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: I really hope that players will try out this mod first before going to play it in this tournament. Majority of the times when something like this happens we don't even see something new...
On January 04 2015 21:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: I really hope that players will try out this mod first before going to play it in this tournament. Majority of the times when something like this happens we don't even see something new...
I will just quote myself here...
Alica definitely did, however Candy(Miya) on the other hand... Hopefully after the first round, everyone is out who didn't looked into yet so we can have decent matches
On January 04 2015 21:25 Ramiz1989 wrote: I really hope that players will try out this mod first before going to play it in this tournament. Majority of the times when something like this happens we don't even see something new...
I will just quote myself here...
Alica definitely did, however Candy(Miya) on the other hand... Hopefully after the first round, everyone is out who didn't looked into yet so we can have decent matches
I mean, Miya tried Swarm Hosts and Lings, which you can say is something new since Swarm Hosts are significantly changed but he looked completely lost against what he was playing...
On January 11 2015 23:31 SixStrings wrote: Haha, this chat is so pointless. Is that how progamers actually communicate during games? And why do they speak English?
On January 11 2015 23:31 SixStrings wrote: Haha, this chat is so pointless. Is that how progamers actually communicate during games? And why do they speak English?
On January 11 2015 23:31 SixStrings wrote: Haha, this chat is so pointless. Is that how progamers actually communicate during games? And why do they speak English?
On January 11 2015 23:31 SixStrings wrote: Haha, this chat is so pointless. Is that how progamers actually communicate during games? And why do they speak English?
It's for our benefit.
'Benefit' being used rather loosely here.
Whoa unrustle those jimmies
They're having fun, they want to communicate, and sometimes when they play for fun they do write English instead of Korean.
On January 11 2015 23:31 SixStrings wrote: Haha, this chat is so pointless. Is that how progamers actually communicate during games? And why do they speak English?
It's for our benefit.
'Benefit' being used rather loosely here.
Why so negative, they are just having some fun...
So am I, watching good players, a great caster and LotV. Didn't mean to be negative, I was just questioning the chatter.
On January 11 2015 23:40 Goibon wrote: Is this the map with that Scarlett v MVP game?
I don't think so. I believe that was a 2012 map. This is the map from the Scarlett and Bomber game. And a lot of other great games. Habitation Station is probably my all-time favorite SC2 map, judging by how fun games on it are to watch.
On January 12 2015 00:01 ivancype wrote: Was the mod updated with the latest blizzard ideas or is it still the Blizzcon build?
It has been updated.
On January 12 2015 00:04 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Can ravagers hit air with their bouncy ball? As it comes from above. Wonder if they could have killed the fleeing cc
I absolutely love the new Corruptor ability, but I definitely feel like the numbers need adjusting. In particular, I think the early hits, before the damage ramps up, needs to be lowered, both so that it's less useful against mobile units and so that it doesn't get into CC-killing territory quite so quickly.
On January 12 2015 00:15 Pontius Pirate wrote: I absolutely love the new Corruptor ability, but I definitely feel like the numbers need adjusting. In particular, I think the early hits, before the damage ramps up, needs to be lowered, both so that it's less useful against mobile units and so that it doesn't get into CC-killing territory quite so quickly.
I think the ground attack range might be lowered to balance it.
On January 12 2015 00:18 Darkdwarf wrote: That first TvZ game was awesome.
It was very cool, yeah.
I don't think that Corruptors are "imba", maybe they need to be tweaked but I don't think that they are nearly as good against Bio. They don't have ground attack, they have ability, and you have to constantly use it to switch targets.
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS. Keeping +1 Range on the Banshee would be the better choice though and buffing the Missile Turret and not removing shared upgrades ... but yeah Blizzard thinks its a good idea to remove unit upgrades. Which is stupid especially for Zerg, since their tech switches hurt so much, that the first switch must be delayed so the opponent can prepare production for it. And you do that by adding upgrades to a unit.
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
so? you're still using banshees with mech, and you use it to put some pressure on the Zerg (or just kill him straight up with hellbat/banshee), while being safe at home
it's not like every unit is supposed to be used in every part of the game
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
I think they just want to see more banshees in TvP. If photon overcharge is back to hitting air they need some edge over mine drops.
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
I think they just want to see more banshees in TvP.
In that case, removing Cloak isn't the solution at all
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
I think they just want to see more banshees in TvP.
In that case, removing Cloak isn't the solution at all
Removing the stalker would be a great solution for more banshees!
The new Terran units, indeed, feel like they're added just because for the sake of adding new units. The new Zerg units/ abilities seem to make a lot of sense though
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
I think they just want to see more banshees in TvP.
In that case, removing Cloak isn't the solution at all
Removing the stalker would be a great solution for more banshees!
To be honest the banshee is like the tank, every protoss units that can attack it counters it
On January 12 2015 00:31 Penev wrote: The new Terran units, indeed, feel like they're added just because for the sake of adding new units. The new Zerg units/ abilities seem to make a lot of sense though
On January 12 2015 00:20 Alchemik wrote: is there any kind of reasoning behind making banshee have cloak by default
Banshee was pretty bad and needed a buff since access to HotS anti air and detection were super easy to access ? Especially Zerg was buffed extremely in that regard with HotS.
so? you're still using banshees with mech, and you use it to put some pressure on the Zerg (or just kill him straight up with hellbat/banshee), while being safe at home
it's not like every unit is supposed to be used in every part of the game
The Banshee is an AvG unit thats all it is and it was okay in the WoL build, but in the HotS build alot of things got an range or speed buff that deal with the Banshee. So it got to weak to be played apart from a few situations and even then it usually just works because the players choose to ignore it. And Terran has alot of units that don't work anymore in a normal engagement.
I like the cyclone idea as a mobile single target unit if they nerf it's damage somewhat. It's like a 'medium' mech unit that currently doesn't exist. Also another mech AA option
On January 12 2015 00:34 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I like the cyclone idea as a mobile single target unit if they nerf it's damage somewhat. It's like a 'medium' mech unit that currently doesn't exist. Also another mech AA option
Just make the Thor that 2 supply medium mech unit, no need to add something else when you can rework what exists to fulfill the desired purpose
While I like where the cost, HP, and ability of the Ravager are at, I think its standard attack could really use a nerf. Maybe 8 + 8 armored, rather than 16 flat damage, particularly given the fact that it has faster attacking rate than the Roach anyway. It shouldn't have higher DPS against all targets than the Roach, but it's alright for it to cut through either light or armored units better.
So far (I know it's very early) the new Terran units feel weird. When do you make them? They don't really fit with the game plan compared to the Zerg additions which usefully be added into any army composition.
On January 12 2015 00:49 Pontius Pirate wrote: While I like where the cost, HP, and ability of the Ravager are at, I think its standard attack could really use a nerf. Maybe 8 + 8 armored, rather than 16 flat damage, particularly given the fact that it has faster attacking rate than the Roach anyway. It shouldn't have higher DPS against all targets than the Roach, but it's alright for it to cut through either light or armored units better.
Indeed. Most of the players were criticizing Ravager for being just a better Roach, and I agree. Banelings aren't better Zerglings, and Lurkers aren't better Hydralisks, they have their roles that are different. But Ravagers really are just better Roaches, the only downside being their size as they are slower than Roaches and buggy, and not being able to move underground but that is about it.
I'm really not sure about getting 15 roaches and making them all into ravagers. I'm feeling a 50/50 setup much more, using vanilla roaches to tank and letting the raviolies hang back and nuke. I think they could work incredibly well with infestors as well. Fungal + ravioli carpet bomb = lulz.
On January 12 2015 00:45 RaFox17 wrote: Did banshee get a range increase?
They did but it got changed back
Unfortunately. I would have much preferred the increased range instead of the free cloak. TvT sound horrible with free cloak.
TvT would be even more horrible with Banshees having range 7. Stats-wise the current Banshee is fine, they just have to change the costs from 150/100/3/60 to 125/75/2/50 and basta
On January 12 2015 00:49 Pontius Pirate wrote: While I like where the cost, HP, and ability of the Ravager are at, I think its standard attack could really use a nerf. Maybe 8 + 8 armored, rather than 16 flat damage, particularly given the fact that it has faster attacking rate than the Roach anyway. It shouldn't have higher DPS against all targets than the Roach, but it's alright for it to cut through either light or armored units better.
Indeed. Most of the players were criticizing Ravager for being just a better Roach, and I agree. Banelings aren't better Zerglings, and Lurkers aren't better Hydralisks, they have their roles that are different. But Ravagers really are just better Roaches, the only downside being their size as they are slower than Roaches and buggy, and not being able to move underground but that is about it.
On January 12 2015 00:53 Squat wrote: I'm really not sure about getting 15 roaches and making them all into ravagers. I'm feeling a 50/50 setup much more, using vanilla roaches to tank and letting the raviolies hang back and nuke. I think they could work incredibly well with infestors as well. Fungal + ravioli carpet bomb = lulz.
Yes, Blizzard made them with that in mind, Fungal + Bombs are destroying everything.
However, later in the game when you have the resources, just going pure Ravagers instead of mixing them with Roaches is better.
On January 12 2015 00:45 RaFox17 wrote: Did banshee get a range increase?
They did but it got changed back
Unfortunately. I would have much preferred the increased range instead of the free cloak. TvT sound horrible with free cloak.
TvT would be even more horrible with Banshees having range 7. Stats-wise the current Banshee is fine, they just have to change the costs from 150/100/3/60 to 125/75/2/50 and basta
Aren't cyclones able to deal with 7 range banshees?
On January 12 2015 00:55 Idiocracy1 wrote: MMA should've had medivacs to pick up his sieged tanks and avoid the ravager shots. Oh boy, LoTV is so coool!
I think that's an upgrade. I expect it will be a long time before players remember that medivacs have non-useless upgrades.
On January 12 2015 00:55 Idiocracy1 wrote: MMA should've had medivacs to pick up his sieged tanks and avoid the ravager shots. Oh boy, LoTV is so coool!
I think that's an upgrade. I expect it will be a long time before players remember that medivacs have non-useless upgrades.
On January 12 2015 00:53 Squat wrote: I'm really not sure about getting 15 roaches and making them all into ravagers. I'm feeling a 50/50 setup much more, using vanilla roaches to tank and letting the raviolies hang back and nuke. I think they could work incredibly well with infestors as well. Fungal + ravioli carpet bomb = lulz.
I'm a bit too bad of a player to do this reliably, but when I've pulled it off, I swear I feel the dying marines in my prostate.
On January 12 2015 00:55 Idiocracy1 wrote: MMA should've had medivacs to pick up his sieged tanks and avoid the ravager shots. Oh boy, LoTV is so coool!
I think that's an upgrade. I expect it will be a long time before players remember that medivacs have non-useless upgrades.
It isn't an upgrade, it was in Starbow, here it is free unless they changed something they didn't tell us about.
On January 12 2015 00:53 Squat wrote: I'm really not sure about getting 15 roaches and making them all into ravagers. I'm feeling a 50/50 setup much more, using vanilla roaches to tank and letting the raviolies hang back and nuke. I think they could work incredibly well with infestors as well. Fungal + ravioli carpet bomb = lulz.
Yes, Blizzard made them with that in mind, Fungal + Bombs are destroying everything.
However, later in the game when you have the resources, just going pure Ravagers instead of mixing them with Roaches is better.
Yeah I was thinking about these early pushes. I think having 10ish vanilla roaches is probably good in that scenario. In the super late game, when you have huge banks, all the upgrades, static def and creep spread, I could see mass ravioli + infestor being pretty nuts.
On a side note, I really want to see zergs make use of the fact that their static def can move in LotV, leapfrogging the crawlers to protect new expansions.
On January 12 2015 00:55 Idiocracy1 wrote: MMA should've had medivacs to pick up his sieged tanks and avoid the ravager shots. Oh boy, LoTV is so coool!
I think that's an upgrade. I expect it will be a long time before players remember that medivacs have non-useless upgrades.
Medivacs have an upgrade? :p
This is slightly off-topic, but I'd really like to see Caduceus Reactor be made useful for the first time in LotV. Maybe if they increased it's starting energy from 50+25 to 50+50 or 75+50, or if they lowered the cost from 100/100 to 50/50. Another cool upgrade idea I had was "beam splitters", which would allow them to heal two units at once. With the added energy cost of healing two at once, it might actually make Caduceus Reactor more of a useful upgrade to have.
Crank reminds me of guy from Vietnam I used to train with. He wanted me to teach him English, and whenever I taught him something new, he'd just randomly repeat the phrases in the most inappropriate contexts. Once, he just called me motherfucker for like two weeks, regardless of what I said.
On January 12 2015 01:07 TheDwf wrote: What a terrible spell, triggers one click agony with no energy management...
Yeah, I don't see the point. At least there is a good amount of micro when you look at Disruptors and Ravagers, considering their abilities. This is just shoot-and-forget kind of ability. Looking forward to see what will they change with Tempests.
The most retarded thing is how fast they made the Tempests.. I mean, giant deathball of flying Ferrari, shooting everything all over the place from 500 range, seems like a thing you want to have in competitive RTS, yeah..
Everything I've seen so far in LotV looks fun, except Tempests and the bullshit "lul u ded now" ability. Most of the new stuff is OP, but it has lots of potential once the game is balanced. I see no potential for interesting gameplay from the stupid tempest DoT at all. Just can that shit imo.
I've decided that I really like Hercs, but I'd rather they replace the upgrade that gives them splash damage with an upgrade that just really boosts their single target damage.
On January 12 2015 01:09 Solar424 wrote: We want to add micro to LotV. Also, here is a spell that makes a unit die. That's all it does.
Isn't it like able to only hit ground units or something?
The Tempest got changed to where it can only attack ground, but moves about as fast as a banshee and has a DOT spell that deals 500 damage over 50 seconds that can hit anything, even buildings.
Tempest ability reminds me of the alchemist ulti from wc3 :D. Not as devestating since you don't get money and it's not instant, but you can have 20 tempests.
On January 12 2015 01:09 Solar424 wrote: We want to add micro to LotV. Also, here is a spell that makes a unit die. That's all it does.
Isn't it like able to only hit ground units or something?
The Tempest got changed to where it can only attack ground, but moves about as fast as a banshee and has a DOT spell that deals 500 damage over 50 seconds that can hit anything, even buildings.
Does dot have a range limitation? 500 damage is crazy
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Well, just for the fact that Irradiate costs energy and this doesn't means that their designs are different... Irradiate also had low range to cast and you were in danger when casting it, this is just... fire and forget ability that kills 90% of units in the game.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
irradiate was on a non combat unit this one still has a tempest gun attached to it.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
One click, stuff dies. No counter-play possible, no energy needed, no drawbacks.
Sure, it should have an enegry cost. No counter play is false, you can repair/heal
Completely unrealistic amount of control and micro and support units required just so your T3 units don't keel over and die to one spell. Counterplay involves some amount of equilibrium between the aggressor and the defender. It's the same thing with FF and TW.
Yeah big thanks to TB boosting the viewer numbers Also QXC is doing a great job! Hopefully more of theses tourneys will come in the future. Apart from the balance being totally weird I like it!
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
It would be cool if it worked like plague: health goes down to 1 hp but you can't kill the unit. Maybe that will make the spell useless though haha.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Which terran is going to bring a train of 5-10 SCVs (or Queens in case of Zerg) with him every time he moves out on the map just to make sure the medivacs and vikings don't die? Granted, the Tempest is a late game unit, but Protoss late game is strong enough as it is.
From a personal point of view, the last thing Protoss needs is another "one click, massive damage"-type of spell. They already have that in the High Templar.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Irradiate was designed with no "smart"casting around and attached to a defenseless body, with actual energy management. It also enabled cool micro tricks such as 2 Vessels casting Irradiate on each other
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
On January 12 2015 01:36 noobPride wrote: impressive viewer count... much higher than many wcs premier tournaments - i'm guessing this is because TB and not SC2/LotV?
It's both I think, but I'm sure the viewercount wouldn't be that high for the same tournament with HotS.
On January 12 2015 01:40 Spect8rCraft wrote: Does this mean PvP will now become T(empest)vT(empest)? Because that ability will simply wreck anything from the robo or twilight route.
That ability is going to be changed very soon after Beta begins or even before that.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
It's a terrible spell design for Tempests. If the spell was on the oracle or observer (for example) I think it wouldn't feel so bad (people mass Tempests, not so much Observers or Oracles) as the ability becomes more and more powerful the more units you have that can cast it (in a similar way to the ravager ability, but at least the ravager ability has some counter-play).
Pretty scary how fast those Tempests are moving also, did they get a speed buff for LotV?
On January 12 2015 01:40 Spect8rCraft wrote: Does this mean PvP will now become T(empest)vT(empest)? Because that ability will simply wreck anything from the robo or twilight route.
I'm fairly sure certain timings will completely destroy the player who is switching to Tempest. Plus with this Phoenix opening could become standard
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Irradiate was designed with no "smart"casting around and attached to a defenseless body, with actual energy management. It also enabled cool micro tricks such as 2 Vessels casting Irradiate on each other
Don't get my wrong, i think irradiate is more interesting too, i just said they are kinda similar. I just do't think dot is "bad design" at all, the current concept might not be 100% interesting (and final), but i don't wanna say it has no place in sc2. (which is the point of a lot of posters if i interprete it correctly)
I don't know if that tournament is such a great idea. A lot of what is featured here won't even be in the beta. It's fun and quite ridiculous, but I'm not sure it makes me want to play LotV rather than HotS.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
Yes.
how? Protoss in HotS isn't OP, but it's dumb, because there is stuff that is easy to execute and hard to counter
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
500 damage is balance complain
easy to play and hard to counter is design complain
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
The balance of the damage is designed to take out nearly anything, which is why it needs 500 by design.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
But the spell itself is design. Protoss has enough lame crap as it is. They don't need more cheese abilities.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
Repair/heal/Transfuse
Only Protoss has a guaranteed loss.
At 10 damage per second to counter 5 temepest you would need like 15-20 SCV just to counter the unit spell
1 or 2 I suppose. It depends on the unit, but a cyclone takes what, 45 seconds for 200 HP? That means it'll take slightly more than 2 SCVs to repair the spell away.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Irradiate was designed with no "smart"casting around and attached to a defenseless body, with actual energy management. It also enabled cool micro tricks such as 2 Vessels casting Irradiate on each other
Don't get my wrong, i think irradiate is more interesting too, i just said they are kinda similar. I just do't think dot is "bad design" at all, the current concept might not be 100% interesting (and final), but i don't wanna say it has no place in sc2. (which is the point of a lot of posters if i interprete it correctly)
Obviously the Tempest spell is inspired by Irradiate, but even perfectly similar spells such as Storm have different behaviours because the environement has been completely modified.
The concept of DoT isn't bad per se (I could for instance see something like Plague in SC2), but like every spell it has to be weighed carefully. For example, Yamato would be a disaster if some midgame unit could cast it.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
The balance of the damage is designed to take out nearly anything, which is why it needs 500 by design.
fair enough, how is the dps rate? that could also change (for easier heal/repair). I just don't agree that this spell is nearly as bad as you guys say it is, even though no energy requirement is funny indeed.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
The balance of the damage is designed to take out nearly anything, which is why it needs 500 by design.
fair enough, how is the dps rate? that could also change (for easier heal/repair). I just don't agree that this spell is nearly as bad as you guys say it is, even though no energy requirement is funny indeed.
Meh, was not a fan of irradiate. And that one seems even worse because it isn't balanced around splash and diminishing damage by pulling the unit out of your other stuff. To be honest, the first playstyle that comes to mind with that thing is that you turtle and mine out the map while killing your opponent for free over time. Especially because the Tempest is the ideal turtle unit with its range and now with its speed is incredible good at not being punishable when casting the spell.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
The balance of the damage is designed to take out nearly anything, which is why it needs 500 by design.
fair enough, how is the dps rate? that could also change (for easier heal/repair). I just don't agree that this spell is nearly as bad as you guys say it is, even though no energy requirement is funny indeed.
500 damage over 50 seconds, 1 tick of 10 damage every second.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
On January 12 2015 01:29 DJHelium wrote: That damage over time spell is crap design
What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
I disagree. It is bad design. Its fast, hits hard, long range, decent hp and has a ability that hits air. The unit itself has no flaws. The only drawbacks is its relatively expensive cost and fleet becon requirement. Both of which are not substantial enough to prevent massing them.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Well, it was the Blizzcon version too and some things are worrisome (stupid eco growth, obviously problematic abilities...) and should be mentioned.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Never pretended this was a definitive version so I don't see your point
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Never pretended this was a definitive version so I don't see your point
On January 12 2015 01:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: [quote] What is your reasoning? "bad design" is such a meme these days
I think is had to do with, "well it hit, I guess I'm fucked", theres no counter play it just hits and its a certain kill every time
thats just not true at all though, you can heal/repair. Sure, right now it isn't perfect (no energy, probably too much dmg), but the concept itself is similar to irradiate, was that "crap design" too?
Dude, it's 500 damage (repairs will cost a lot), and while the damage is being done, you can just stutter step the tempests while even doing more and SCVs will have a hard time running and repairing.
Even if the damage gets reduced, it's still a terrible designed because it's extremely easy to play.
That's more about balance and not design (most of the complaints here tbh). Which is exactly my point, "bad design" is a meme without any real meanign at this point, which is why i asked for the reasoning
being "too easy to play and too hard to counter" is a balance thing?
The dmg of 500 is balance, yes
The balance of the damage is designed to take out nearly anything, which is why it needs 500 by design.
fair enough, how is the dps rate? that could also change (for easier heal/repair). I just don't agree that this spell is nearly as bad as you guys say it is, even though no energy requirement is funny indeed.
Meh, was not a fan of irradiate. And that one seems even worse because it isn't balanced around splash and diminishing damage by pulling the unit out of your other stuff. To be honest, the first playstyle that comes to mind with that thing is that you turtle and mine out the map while killing your opponent for free over time. Especially because the Tempest is the ideal turtle unit with its range and now with its speed is incredible good at not being punishable when casting the spell.
Hehe yeah that was kinda the exciting part of irradiate, wasn't it. I agree that this dot doesn't have this kind of counterplay potential, healing/repairing isn't really "exciting". Well turtling itself will get a lot harder, so i am not sure if it is doable that way, we will see though
Games are quit poor but actually, I'm quite enjoying this. We should have a tournament like this every time blizz pushes out changes for LotV just to see what games will look like between pro gamers
On January 12 2015 01:59 sudete wrote: Games are quit poor but actually, I'm quite enjoying this. We should have a tournament like this every time blizz pushes out changes for LotV just to see what games will look like between pro gamers
That would be quite pointless I think. Clearly the people who are playing now are not taking it all that seriously.
On January 12 2015 01:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: Really not sure about cloak built in. Looks like one of those "let's see how broken we can make something" moves.
Yeah forces things way too much, a bit antifun imo.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Never pretended this was a definitive version so I don't see your point
"standard"?
3 HERCs can destroy a Bunker in a matter of seconds (without a Bunker, SCVs/Marines are inefficient against such a strong body), and they can grapple the SCVs repairing to enter the base and wreak havoc from there, so yeah, in the current state of things the HERC seems very dangerous in early game TvT and I can see it bulldoze most builds on 2p maps. And if there is no "counter" among the new builds it might end up being standard indeed, which hopefully doesn't happen
So far I don't see any of the new units solving any problem of HotS or having any exciting feature an already existing unit couldn't have had. In fact, HERCs, ravagers or the new tempest kinda seem to introduce new problems rather than solve ones.
They should really prioritize ground units over air units, so much of the RTS goes out of the window, when you have big flying shit killing everything all over the map.
The sooner the beta, the better. Some of the ideas have potential, but such heavy tweaking will be needed I wouldn't even be surprised if the beta had to last eight months for the game to be playable.
Next timt TB says "devastating", I will likely devastate something.
That aside, I really love Ravagers, that's such a cool unit. Both the Tempest and Corruptor abilities will likely need to be changed, otherwise the whole game with P or Z will revolve just about them and having all games air-only won't be much fun.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Never pretended this was a definitive version so I don't see your point
"standard"?
3 HERCs can destroy a Bunker in a matter of seconds (without a Bunker, SCVs/Marines are inefficient against such a strong body), and they can grapple the SCVs repairing to enter the base and wreak havoc from there, so yeah, in the current state of things the HERC seems very dangerous in early game TvT and I can see it bulldoze most builds on 2p maps. And if there is no "counter" among the new builds it might end up being standard indeed, which hopefully doesn't happen
Does it take reapers too long to kill it? Because when I played the mod, a Herc wasn't able to grapple and then also hit a (fast?) moving unit. So a reaper shouldn't take any damage from a Herc and eventually kill it.
On January 12 2015 02:24 purakushi wrote: LotV? Last chance, Blizzard.
I don't know, I'm not a fan of giving an air superiority unit straight ground abilities (phoenix or viking do have some ground influence but it's really subtle, I like them). Basically colossi don't exist anymore in PvZ. Maybe for the greater good, but I'm really sceptical.
I remember reading that in BW they designed air so that air to ground was much weaker than ground to air to avoid massing units that destroy everything and instead they have to use their mobility to get more use from them
On January 12 2015 02:24 opisska wrote: Next timt TB says "devastating", I will likely devastate something.
That aside, I really love Ravagers, that's such a cool unit. Both the Tempest and Corruptor abilities will likely need to be changed, otherwise the whole game with P or Z will revolve just about them and having all games air-only won't be much fun.
I think it's early to call PvZ air-only games, these builds are not even close to optimized. I do expect some changes to tempests through.
On January 12 2015 01:49 TheDwf wrote: Yeah OK, proxy Herc is the standard TvT build... Pathetic
You have some good points from time to time, but man.. Come on! Stop being so negative all the time. This is just an alpha fan mode and people are fucking around.
Never pretended this was a definitive version so I don't see your point
"standard"?
3 HERCs can destroy a Bunker in a matter of seconds (without a Bunker, SCVs/Marines are inefficient against such a strong body), and they can grapple the SCVs repairing to enter the base and wreak havoc from there, so yeah, in the current state of things the HERC seems very dangerous in early game TvT and I can see it bulldoze most builds on 2p maps. And if there is no "counter" among the new builds it might end up being standard indeed, which hopefully doesn't happen
On January 12 2015 02:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't know, I'm not a fan of giving an air superiority unit straight ground abilities (phoenix or viking do have some ground influence but it's really subtle, I like them). Basically colossi don't exist anymore in PvZ. Maybe for the greater good, but I'm really sceptical.
Yeah, but I'm not sure on it. When I was trying it, it didn't feel that good. Keep in mind that those were 20+ Corruptors. If there are 20+ phoenixes, mineral lines, spawning units and even smaller armies evaporate too.
On January 12 2015 02:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't know, I'm not a fan of giving an air superiority unit straight ground abilities (phoenix or viking do have some ground influence but it's really subtle, I like them). Basically colossi don't exist anymore in PvZ. Maybe for the greater good, but I'm really sceptical.
Yeah, but I'm not sure on it. When I was trying it, it didn't feel that good. Keep in mind that those were 20+ Corruptors. If there are 20+ phoenixes, mineral lines, spawning units and even smaller armies evaporate too.
Yeah, maybe it's not that strong. But I don't like the idea anyway.
Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
I like the concept of Roaches morphing into something, but as noted some pages ago, the current Ravager just feels like the kind of unit you can mass without much drawback, and that's not a good thing. Also feels there's too much spam going on with that spell, I have the impression I'm watching a MOBA fight
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
They are not well made but I like the fact that they can destroy FF, also the skill seems to never hit anything, I just don't like that its a spam ability
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
Let's be honest here, which LotV addition/change really convinced you, like "yeah, that unit/tweaking was needed, such a clever change" ? As far as I'm concerned, none.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
HotS turned out a lot better than HotS beta was
What if the Ravager ability had less of a delay but wasn't smartcast?
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
On January 12 2015 02:32 TheDwf wrote: The ability of the Ravager just feels too spammable
They should just make it their standard attack and remove the normal attack they have. (And obviously balance for it)
They can hardly hit anything that moves... that would make them really bad. The standard attack is too good right now though
Nah, that would just make them not spammable ; they would become an anti FF specialist unit. They'd lack a role in ZvT, but I'd prefer it over that version.
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
They are not well made but I like the fact that they can destroy FF, also the skill seems to never hit anything, I just don't like that its a spam ability
You can harass mineral lines, attack buildings and control space somehow. I am ok with it. It's hard to know how strong the ability actually is since Alicia played really bad.
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
Let's be honest here, which LotV addition/change really convinced you, like "yeah, that unit/tweaking was needed, such a clever change" ? As far as I'm concerned, none.
So negative... I think everything bar the tempest changes is a pretty interesting idea with some (heavy) tweaking
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
On January 12 2015 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Am i the only one who thinks ravagers are "bad design" :D
I like the concept of Roaches morphing into something, but as noted some pages ago, the current Ravager just feels like the kind of unit you can mass without much drawback, and that's not a good thing. Also feels there's too much spam going on with that spell, I have the impression I'm watching a MOBA fight
That's pretty much everything i like about ravagers :D Ok destroying forcefields is neat too, but i am not sure if you even have to destroy ffs, why not just the sentries and army? :D I like the zerg concept of morphing units, but the ravager is too close to the roach imo and the ability is WAY too spamable (and kinda too close to a "zerg storm") I really hope they will change the ravagers massively
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
yeah I'm playing HotS but I still feel like barely anything HotS added was good for the game in the end : medivac speed turned TvT into a travesty of what it used to be (and forced the msc to exist), mothership core/tempest/oracle well should I say anything more, widow mine are random and needed so much rebalancing it tells of the problem they were, and muta regen swarm hosts are like the worst things that ever happened to SCII. Maybe viper was OK, ultra/phoenix/infestor changes were needed and good. But overall I'm not convinced HotS was as great a step forward as it should have been.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
yeah I'm playing HotS but I still feel like barely anything HotS added was good for the game in the end : medivac speed turned TvT into a travesty of what it used to be (and forced the msc to exist), mothership core/tempest/oracle well should I say anything more, widow mine are random and needed so much rebalancing it tells of the problem they were, and muta regen swarm hosts are like the worst things that ever happened to SCII. Maybe viper was OK, ultra/phoenix/infestor changes were needed and good. But overall I'm not convinced HotS was as great as a step forward it should have been.
widow mines are not random at all. Widow mines were a very good change imo
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
yeah I'm playing HotS but I still feel like barely anything HotS added was good for the game in the end : medivac speed turned TvT into a travesty of what it used to be (and forced the msc to exist), mothership core/tempest/oracle well should I say anything more, widow mine are random and needed so much rebalancing it tells of the problem they were, and muta regen swarm hosts are like the worst things that ever happened to SCII. Maybe viper was OK, ultra/phoenix/infestor changes were needed and good. But overall I'm not convinced HotS was as great as a step forward it should have been.
widow mines are not random at all. Widow mines were a very good change imo
OK widow mines aren't just random, but take back muta regen and widow mines aren't needed anymore and the game is better.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
On January 12 2015 02:48 PinoKotsBeer wrote: im glad we can already play around with this lotv mod. i hope the beta etc will adjust a lot, because i dont like what i see.
Hopefully ! We still don't have any date for a closed beta do we ?
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
On January 12 2015 02:36 Spect8rCraft wrote: What's the DPS on the ravager's standard?
About 12.3. It doesnt look high considering the cost (100/100 total)
Hmm... Seems a little high given its additional abilities. Maybe toning it down to 10 or so would push it back to a more support/control role?
I kind of like how it fires faster, but it definitely needs some sort of role tweaking. I'd like to see it optimized against either light or armored units.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
They just want to add a new unit, i don't see any other reason for Herc, and even Cyclone feels a bit weird
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
Sieged tanks pick ups are worse than colossi, it's power and mobility with no downside at all.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
We've seen it used in a pvt earlier, it allows the terran bio to attack sentries to deny forcefields, and they can jump on collosus to distract them from the other bio forces. I thought it was pretty neat. They are too strong in early game though.
That being said, I wonder if Ravagers have room simply because the 100/50/2 Hydralisk with the power of SC2 larva production failed so much. They should really work on the Hydralisk, but I fear they will just let it in the gutter as an obsolete iconic unit
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
Sieged tanks pick ups are worse than colossi, it's power and mobility with no downside at all.
They just need to look at Starbow, they have that for a while now and its work really well
I feel like picking up sieged tanks should unsiege them. It wouldn't make the positioning game so punishing for the opponent, and could give Terrans some interesting applications in bypassing the unsieging cooldown.
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
Sieged tanks pick ups are worse than colossi, it's power and mobility with no downside at all.
They just need to look at Starbow, they have that for a while now and its work really well
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
Sieged tanks pick ups are worse than colossi, it's power and mobility with no downside at all.
They just need to look at Starbow, they have that for a while now and its work really well
On January 12 2015 02:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Of course nothing is final, of course a lot of things will be tweaked, but I see no sign here that LotV will be the "far better and more entertaining than HotS" game everybody is trying to sell.
Tbh if you saw a tournament played with WoL or HotS alpha I'm pretty sure you would be thinking "wtf is that terrible game" too. Yet you're playing HotS now.
Of course the games will look dumb and all since no one knows how to play, but the concepts don't give me much hope
I dunno, the idea of a Zerg unit that morphs from the Roach and can control space is pretty cool to me, as is the idea of making Corruptors actually decent, just like the SH change + lurker addition, just like a Protoss AoE unit that can actually be microed looks good. Terran additions sucks though.
The Zerg changes indeed seem the best
I like the speed upgrade for the banshee, the tank pick up for medivac and the cyclone, they allow mech to be a more mobile aggressive force, right everything is all over the place of course but mech looks much better than in HotS.
I have no idea what they want with the HERC tho
Sieged tanks pick ups are worse than colossi, it's power and mobility with no downside at all.
They just need to look at Starbow, they have that for a while now and its work really well
On January 12 2015 03:02 TheDwf wrote: Really dislike the "distant pick up" from the Prism
Yeah it's horrendous and will become increasingly more problematic as players become better with it -and it already looks insane. I don't think that ability, as cool as it is, can stay.
I think one notable issue with trying to critique the prism play is that the Terrans so far don't seem too keen on making AA or vikings to try to counter them, which is strange given that AA will also counter oracles and tempests, to say nothing about the obvious counter to colossi. I don't know whether that's a build order issue or something else, though.
I definitely enjoy LotV more, but I think that only speaks volumes about the state of HotS. LotV is definitely going in the right direction, but it needs more.
On January 12 2015 03:02 TheDwf wrote: Really dislike the "distant pick up" from the Prism
Yeah it's horrendous and will become increasingly more problematic as players become better with it -and it already looks insane. I don't think that ability, as cool as it is, can stay.
The only thing I don't really like about the "distant pick up" is that it's very easy to execute. Most protoss additions throughout hots (and now lotv) are always things way too easy to execute: photon overcharge, tempests (old and new), distant prism, void rays buff, etc
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
Dirsuptors are pretty good, they can hunt down any zerg army. Then pick it up from 6range and retreat. That's what Mana has been doing all the time when he was trying the mod.
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
Dirsuptors are pretty good, they can hunt down any zerg army. Then pick it up from 6range and retreat. That's what Mana has been doing all the time when he was trying the mod.
Ah, yeah, always forget about that unit. Probably.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
Dirsuptors are pretty good, they can hunt down any zerg army. Then pick it up from 6range and retreat. That's what Mana has been doing all the time when he was trying the mod.
Ah, yeah, always forget about that unit. Probably.
Though there has been a vast nerf on them since that I think (I think it was before the nerf).
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
Dirsuptors are pretty good, they can hunt down any zerg army. Then pick it up from 6range and retreat. That's what Mana has been doing all the time when he was trying the mod.
Ah, yeah, always forget about that unit. Probably.
Though there has been a vast nerf on them since that I think (I think it was before the nerf).
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Why are swarm hosts good as gone? I was under the impression that although there's no more autocast/rally, locusts are just as good as ever, if not better.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Why are swarm hosts good as gone? I was under the impression that although there's no more autocast/rally, locusts are just as good as ever, if not better.
SHs are higher tech units and games are ending quite fast. (the upgrade requires hive if I am not mistaken)
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Why are swarm hosts good as gone? I was under the impression that although there's no more autocast/rally, locusts are just as good as ever, if not better.
Are they ? I thought they had been severely nerfed and didn't work at all in big masses now.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Well i think their basic concept (more action, faster action) is a very good thing. I am not sure if they will achieve it completely, but these games we see currently aren't really a good indicator, even though it's all we have really :D
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Why are swarm hosts good as gone? I was under the impression that although there's no more autocast/rally, locusts are just as good as ever, if not better.
well, we'll most likely not see Swarm Hosts ever again
On January 12 2015 03:10 TheDwf wrote: Well, it seems their first move in LotV beta will be to nerf Tempests so we can actually see Protoss ground units
I don't even know, in PvZ with corruptors hard countering colossi based compositions so hard I'm not sure which ground composition we could go into. Maybe storm could become a thing again with current swarm hosts gone, but I think carriers will be the goal of most Protoss.
Dirsuptors are pretty good, they can hunt down any zerg army. Then pick it up from 6range and retreat. That's what Mana has been doing all the time when he was trying the mod.
Ah, yeah, always forget about that unit. Probably.
Though there has been a vast nerf on them since that I think (I think it was before the nerf).
What was the nerf?
The cooldown was changed. It was like 10seconds previously and now it's 30 or so :D
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Why are swarm hosts good as gone? I was under the impression that although there's no more autocast/rally, locusts are just as good as ever, if not better.
well, we'll most likely not see Swarm Hosts ever again
Well, we obv need playtesting with Stephano and Firecake.
On January 12 2015 03:19 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't like the brand of PvZ we just saw. OK it may not be worse than swarm hosts, but it's really lame too.
Haha i like how you don't seem to like anything lotv related :D
Oh, I'm glad that swarm hosts are as good as gone and that carriers got some love. Otherwise most concepts leave me sceptical, and the games we see don't help me getting more optimistic.
Well i think their basic concept (more action, faster action) is a very good thing. I am not sure if they will achieve it completely, but these games we see currently aren't really a good indicator, even though it's all we have really :D
As usual the intention is good. They had the same idea in mind when they introduced medivac boost and muta speed+regen, and those things helped destroy the game by forcing things like overcharge or +bio spore damage. So I don't care about the intention or the basic concept, what I care about is the quality of the game in the end -design as well as balance, though it's far too early to speak of balance. And those designs and concepts seem, for most of them, questionable at best.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Dont waste your time, [PkF] Wire and Big J have no clue how RTS games work.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Dont waste your time, [PkF] Wire and Big J have no clue how RTS games work.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I guess they don't know what a roach baneling bust is : an attack that, even perfectly scouted, can deal game ending damage without perfect control. Which is what everybody loves.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I guess they don't know what a roach baneling bust is : an attack that, even perfectly scouted, can deal game ending damage without perfect control. Which is what everybody loves.
If the control is correct and more things align then yes, but that applies to many other strategies by protoss and terran as well. Cannon rush, proxy bunker etc. If you wanted, you could say that about every strategy lol
Of course non-counterable play is bad, but early game aggression is something Zerg desperately needs.
Is anyone else thinking that with LotV maybe the unit roster will have grown a bit too large? Maybe a few units should get cut to trim things down a bit.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I guess they don't know what a roach baneling bust is : an attack that, even perfectly scouted, can deal game ending damage without perfect control. Which is what everybody loves.
On January 12 2015 03:42 Exarl25 wrote: Is anyone else thinking that with LotV maybe the unit roster will have grown a bit too large? Maybe a few units should get cut to trim things down a bit.
I definitely do. That aspect has been worrying me since WoL came out with close to BW number of units. With the expansions the numbers were bound to get huge and I think the unit pool is clearly too big now, with too much interactions to handle.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I guess they don't know what a roach baneling bust is : an attack that, even perfectly scouted, can deal game ending damage without perfect control. Which is what everybody loves.
Euh yeah i actually would like that scouting something isn't enough to hold it without good control (obviously the attacker should need good control as well though).
On January 12 2015 03:42 Exarl25 wrote: Is anyone else thinking that with LotV maybe the unit roster will have grown a bit too large? Maybe a few units should get cut to trim things down a bit.
I definitely do. That aspect has been worrying me since WoL came out with close to BW number of units. With the expansions the numbers were bound to get huge and I think the unit pool is clearly too big now, with too much interactions to handle.
Why is this a bad thing? I never get that. More options, more dynamic gameplay...
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
On January 12 2015 03:42 Exarl25 wrote: Is anyone else thinking that with LotV maybe the unit roster will have grown a bit too large? Maybe a few units should get cut to trim things down a bit.
I definitely do. That aspect has been worrying me since WoL came out with close to BW number of units. With the expansions the numbers were bound to get huge and I think the unit pool is clearly too big now, with too much interactions to handle.
Why is this a bad thing? I never get that. More options, more dynamic gameplay...
Depends what you are aiming for. If you just want fun things, it's definitely great, but if you're trying to settle what is going to be THE competitive RTS for the 5-10 next years, you want something elegant and balanced. Which is easier to achieve with fewer units.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
To have that kind of play you need new concepts of units though, because it's impossible to achieve with HotS units without breaking the later game. So introducing a new unit with the potential to have that is great.
And the Ravager has a lot of potential for that kind of thing, because it's questionable whether it's effectiveness stays the same over time.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
Couldn't have said it better -think I tried to convey the same idea quite awkwardly in a previous post.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
Couldn't have said it better -think I tried to convey the same idea quite awkwardly in a previous post.
You gotta consider that for that to achieve, you need to tweak not only new stuff but all existing stuff. Realtiy check here: Do you really think Blizzard is going to do that?
If Blizzard introduces low-risk low-reward units, people just won't use them.
On January 12 2015 03:33 TheDwf wrote: Blargh, I really hope proxy Ravager doesn't become ZvP's bane bust
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
Couldn't have said it better -think I tried to convey the same idea quite awkwardly in a previous post.
You gotta consider that for that to achieve, you need to tweak not only new stuff but all existing stuff. Realtiy check here: Do you really think Blizzard is going to do that?
If Blizzard introduces low-risk low-reward units, people just won't use them.
A lot of builds are already built around pressuring the opponent at precise timings to control their economic growth. I don't think that would be hard to achieve if mothership core was removed.
I really hope it does, finally zergs can attack early game
^ Agreed. No longer 10 minutes no rush games.
yeah, finally more information gambling. Finally all the matchups become more like PvP, the matchup everyone has been loving so much since 2010.
"Information gambling"? Do you even play SC2? Dealing with incomplete information is one of the core mechanics.
Also no one is saying that Ravagers will stay EXACTLY like they are now. Geez. Judging the balance based on the current state is something I'm not allowed to type on here.
Lol, you and DuduSC were the ones that commented: I really hope it does become like a roach/baneling bust
I didn't say a word about the balance of LotV in that comment, just about your retarted goals for the game.
I agreed with the fact that the early game aggression potential is great. Because thats what Zerg lacks. Roach Baneling bust is just the perfect example of it because it is one of the few early game aggression plays zerg has that's actually viable.
I'm gonna ignore your second sentence.
Aggression doesn't have to take the form of attacks that are so powerful they can constantly rival with standard—and actually define it to a large extent. The model of pressure is superior. Low-medium risks for low-medium rewards rather than "miss it from one inch and you're instantly gone".
Couldn't have said it better -think I tried to convey the same idea quite awkwardly in a previous post.
You gotta consider that for that to achieve, you need to tweak not only new stuff but all existing stuff. Realtiy check here: Do you really think Blizzard is going to do that?
If Blizzard introduces low-risk low-reward units, people just won't use them.
A lot of builds are already built around pressuring the opponent at precise timings to control their economic growth. I don't think that would be hard to achieve if mothership core was removed.
Yeah see thats a already an impossible thing. They'll never remove units.
But anyway, even assuming they'd do, what kind of builds are you looking at?
I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
Why do they insist on giving locust such high dps? I would prefer more locust but with less damage so they actually feel like a swarm instead of advancing lava.
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
LotV will be the best game ever made :D Honestly, it looks like a lot of fun
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
Completely random build order matchup that resulted in hilarity
Though I think the amount of damage the locusts do is a smidge much XD haha
I don't know if we need more high damage, high burst, high cooldown units
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
I'm really wondering what the answer to airtoss is from a Z point of view. If the answer is "don't let him reach it and ravager bust him", I think the outlook is bleak.
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
Impact thought that the flying locusts would attack air, hence the late spire :p
On January 12 2015 03:56 The_Templar wrote: I wonder if mass air is going to remain as good as it is. I sort of liked having ground-based armies in HotS >.>
More like in any RTS. Airballs in SC2 are already an issue, LotV, at this rate, could only make it worse.
On January 12 2015 03:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I don't know what the fuck i just tuned into. I saw a flying swarmhosts kill a nexus in 2 seconds and absolutely no air defense against mass tempest/carrier
Crank thought that the flying locusts would attack air, hence the late spire :p
Can we please start a circlejerk now that Zerg is broken in LotV alpha and Terran terribly underpowered and then base all our balance/design discussions around that assumption?
Like, 1year from now I want to read posts like: "back in the days when the ravagers was completely broken blizzard had to nerf X and now Y happened"
Well, these games were mostly not very good, but I'm glad they happened. I hope the next LotV tourney contains some players who've practiced it more. It looked like only Crank had played much of the mod. Although we could really use an update of the alpha's balance as well.
On January 12 2015 03:56 The_Templar wrote: I wonder if mass air is going to remain as good as it is. I sort of liked having ground-based armies in HotS >.>
Same thing happened at the start of HotS, everyone went for air PvZ cause it was metabroken for a while, then at some point it got figured out. After it was figured out, people didn't look for "another way to make air", they just went back to ground units. It's likely that we'll see something similar in LotV.
My conclusion: Had a lot of fun watching this, the faster starts are great for viewing (don't know about the effect on gameplay). Gameplay level clearly wasn't very high but still fun. Thanks TB!
Corruptor change is great fun, perhaps lower cast range and/or longer cooldown for the ground attack because seems a bit too effective Ravager is awesome, but basic attacks is too good, should not be a effective massable unit. No idea on lurkers Locust DPS is insane, might be balanced by spawning cooldown but looks very strong
Herc's are fun but need a lot less hp or damage. Hercs to jump towards sentries to kill them or to collosus to distract them is cool and useful. Cyclones are interesting but really need damage and hp nerf (200? really) I don't understand free banshee cloak at all
Tempests are terrible, way too good with no downside, the damage over time is too good, speed way too fast. Carriers are proper killers now New warpprism + disruptor is really strong, quite like widowmine drops that are harder to shut down No idea on immortals I wish they added a 'basic' protoss unit still, with worse warpgate and forcefields they need something to add to their armies imo
All in all I think LotV will be really good IF they balance it correctly. David Kim pls ;x
On January 12 2015 04:00 Big J wrote: Can we please start a circlejerk now that Zerg is broken in LotV alpha and Terran terribly underpowered and then base all our balance/design discussions around that assumption?
Like, 1year from now I want to read posts like: "back in the days when the ravagers was completely broken blizzard had to nerf X and now Y happened"
Well you already started it so I guess you got your answer.
On January 12 2015 04:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: My conclusion: Had a lot of fun watching this, the faster starts are great for viewing (don't know about the effect on gameplay). Gameplay level clearly wasn't very high but still fun. Thanks TB!
Corruptor change is great fun, perhaps lower cast range and/or longer cooldown for the ground attack because seems a bit too effective Ravager is awesome, but basic attacks is too good, should not be a effective massable unit. No idea on lurkers Locust DPS is insane, might be balanced by spawning cooldown but looks very strong
Herc's are fun but need a lot less hp or damage. Hercs to jump towards sentries to kill them or to collosus to distract them is cool and useful. Cyclones are interesting but really need damage and hp nerf (200? really) I don't understand free banshee cloak at all
Tempests are terrible, way too good with no downside, the damage over time is too good, speed way too fast. Carriers are proper killers now New warpprism + disruptor is really strong, quite like widowmine drops that are harder to shut down No idea on immortals I wish they added a 'basic' protoss unit still, with worse warpgate and forcefields they need something to add to their armies imo
All in all I think LotV will be really good IF they balance it correctly. David Kim pls ;x
Yeah I agree, Protoss needs another warpgate unit, but I wish for that since WoL. I still don't like the design of the colossus but in exchange for that protoss would need a better ground unit. I don't like the corruptor change. A air vs air unit should stay exactly that. If it has too many abilities, it basicly makes other units useless. At least it shouldn't be that strong, it should be like... vikings in ground mode :D Ravager is way too strong atm Locust DPS was always crazy, that flying in stuff is just brutal, hope it gets changed. It may be balanced on higher levels, but below the 0.01% that are Korean GM, every player will hate them even more soon, way too big of an invitement to playing as a one trick pony on ladder. As for the protoss units, I am not sure about them yet: Carriers and tempests are strong, but Impact didn't seem to react the right way: maybe mass hydras+ vipers would have knocked Crank down. I really don't like the warp prism change. Requiring less skill to drop will also only increase the hatred towards the "EZ race"
Also I don't like units that kill other stuff extremely fast, SC2 should be more about skills again, I always hate when battles are over in 2 secs when you weren't looking. So many times this has nothing to do with skill, but luck
Here are my thoughts, I already posted on SCReddit but I thought you guys might enjoy.
THE GOOD
The main thing I've noticed so far is the lack of deathballs. There seems to be a lot of army splitting and multitasking happening, which I like a lot. 200/200 seems really difficult to reach because of how aggressive you have to be to prevent your opponent from getting a big economic edge. Blizzard has absolutely succeeded in reducing downtime so far, which I really like.
My favourite series of the day was MMA vs Impact. There was always something happening, and the fact that the players were unable to establish a large number of bases meant that it was fairly low-econ and low-supply as well. The positional Lurker play, constant drops, and multipronged harassment showed what is possible with LotV.
THE BAD
While there is a lot of good and potential for LotV, some of these games have really shown that Blizzard needs to take a hard look at a number of things.
The biggest problem I had with the games was Protoss, mainly their tech tree and unit interactions.
The biggest offender for me today was the Stargate tech path that was chosen by Crank for the majority of his games. When he opened with Oracle, it felt too gimmicky and narrow in scope. It would either go in and get a ton of worker kills, or there would be a unit defending and the Oracle would just die or be useless for the rest of the game.
This is really boring to watch. They seem to be heading in the right direction with the Stasis Ward giving the Oracle more utility as the game goes on, however beyond that there's nothing interesting there.
The second part of why I didn't like the Stargate play today was the Tempest. Again, it's just boring to watch as there are no interesting unit interactions. The unit lends itself to massing really well, so rather than encouraging many engagements around the map it just leads to the deathball style that Blizzard seems to want to avoid.
The final point doesn't have anything to do with Stargate play, but instead with Gateway units. These games have made it pretty obvious that Protoss early game needs a change. Small groups of Marines and Marauders or Ravagers and Roaches are strong enough to be able to be split and sent around the map for harassment and smaller engagements, but for Protoss (beyond small Warp Prism drops) the problem of turtling to a deathball seemed to be exacerbated with the number of bases that need to be defended at once.
I really hope Blizzard makes more changes to Protoss. Compared to Terran and Zerg so far, Protoss seem boring and passive. There needs to be less of a reliance on higher-tier glass cannons, and more of a reliance on strong T1 and T2 core units that Protoss can send around the map for multipronged aggression.
On January 12 2015 04:29 Krobolt wrote: I really hope Blizzard makes more changes to Protoss. Compared to Terran and Zerg so far, Protoss seem boring and passive. There needs to be less of a reliance on higher-tier glass cannons, and more of a reliance on strong T1 and T2 core units that Protoss can send around the map for multipronged aggression.
was always the problem for me when watching or playing protoss.
On January 12 2015 04:29 Krobolt wrote: I really hope Blizzard makes more changes to Protoss. Compared to Terran and Zerg so far, Protoss seem boring and passive. There needs to be less of a reliance on higher-tier glass cannons, and more of a reliance on strong T1 and T2 core units that Protoss can send around the map for multipronged aggression.
was always the problem for me when watching or playing protoss.
True enough, but I play more Protoss than I do Terran and Zerg right now and it's not a huge problem. With the new economy, though, I feel like it will be.
Builds where you forgo a gateway army to move the game instantly to situations where tempests are repeatedly harassing, akin to tempests vs swarm hosts in HotS, seem contrived and eventually boring. I don't see the deep strategic potential of these builds compared to standard macro play.
I don't think disintegration is a good idea. The science vessel worked in brood war because zerg had some high utility units that terran needed to be able to cull, an analogous situation for tempests would be having a few of them near your army to eliminate vipers, brood lords and ultralisks, but I think that protoss should be capable of facing such armies straight up without mutual destruction gimmicks. Certainly protoss needs to invest its gas into units like archons and can't really afford tempests without going all-in on them. In Starcraft 2 you are also more likely to mass anti-air and create a viking / corruptor fleet to deal with an investment into tempests and this forces void rays / carriers and establishes these back-and-forth air battles which I find to have dubious value.
Furthermore, it seems that disintegration has bad interactions with transfuse (creating an apm sink to invalidate the ability) and it lacks some of the cool aspects of irradiate.
On January 12 2015 06:04 ZAiNs wrote: Were they any games with a lot of Disruptor use?
Quite a few with some disruptor + warp prism mineral line harass. I really wanted to see something like forcefields/statis + disruptor in army engagements though.
On January 12 2015 06:13 Darkdwarf wrote: Are the vods up yet?
It took me only one minute to see whether the vods are up or not. You could also have invested that time to look at his youtube channel (TotalBiscuit) instead of asking in this thread.
Disruptor + prism harass seems really interesting and was featured in some games (Crank - Heart I think saw a disruptor net 40+ kills). I wish the ranged pick up goes away to make drop less easy though.
On January 12 2015 05:02 TAMinator wrote: im surprised this had so many viewers was the pull due to the LotV tag or something?
Most of TB's tournaments have had over 20k viewers easily. I guess LotV maybe gave a bump of additional 5-10k viewers. He's had up to 40k viewers on his normal streams (i.e. sim city launch).
Had some good fun watching this, more than I'vs had with Sc2 in quite a while. LotV looks to have awesome potential, though these games highlighted some issues as well. Protoss, as many people had predicted, just has to change somehow to work in this new environment. Also Tempests are awful and complete killjoys. Worst unit so far by a mile.
TB thanks for the putting on this tournament! Hopefully once the beta launches we'll see a bunch more tournaments pop up since this was very fun to watch
Thanks for watching everyone! Happy it generated a lot of discussion. Look forward to more Axiom tournaments in the future, I already have some ideas for the next one.
On January 12 2015 14:52 SoleSteeler wrote: Sounds like the tourney was a success! Hate to ask but any ETA on vods? As in possibly later today or do i need to wait a few days?
I think TB is usually fairly quick at uploading VODs, so it should take less than a day.
You can access the VODs now on Twitch if you subscribe to TB!
On January 12 2015 09:00 Squat wrote: Had some good fun watching this, more than I'vs had with Sc2 in quite a while. LotV looks to have awesome potential, though these games highlighted some issues as well. Protoss, as many people had predicted, just has to change somehow to work in this new environment. Also Tempests are awful and complete killjoys. Worst unit so far by a mile.
You can see in a lot of the protoss games (I think especially by Alicia) that players don't know how to use the new warpgate yet. They warp in units directly underneath an enemy army and then seem kinda surprised it doesn't work. This is unfortunately what happens whenever you change core mechanics, but hopefully this knowledge won't deter Blizzard from pushing this change through.
To be honest, I think that the purpose of the warpgate nerf (&sentry nerf vs zerg) has to be part of an attempt to make gateway units more viable, because otherwise it leads to games where protoss goes straight to tempests and even forgoes gateways entirely (like Crank did).
Just watched the vods, looking very good imo. The corruptors ravager lurker is looking crazy strong against terran. I am hoping for a bigger buff for mech/tank or remove one of the new unit to give mech a bit more firing power
I was a little disappointed to see lurkers only in one (or two?) game. I guess with the players being unfamiliar with the units it was as good as it could have gotten though!
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vF2aVSw.png)
Alicia, 
Miya, 
MMA, ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/7f/Twitch_ico.png)
TotalBiscuit 
, but 2k left in the break 
