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On February 08 2012 22:21 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight. EMP nerf is also quite recent and IMHO the biggest reason terran is doing much more poorly in lategame TvP.
I don't really see this as an issue, havent seen enough games where emp "barely" missed and the 0.5 extra range would have made a difference.
Look at the last engagement of game 2 of parting vs Jjakji. Even with the reduced EMP AoE, the Ghosts were still able to hit almost all of the protoss army. Why did he lose that engagement? Parting had 3 mining bases while Jjakji only had 1 (he had a base at the 11 and 4 o clock location but no SCV's).
Is there a problem late game PVT? maybe but these games cannot be used as evidence since in both games, Parting was up 2 bases for over 5 mins. (Game 1 Jjakji got his 4th completely denied by a single DT all game long)
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On February 08 2012 22:33 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 % Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM.
That's for all of gsl, the others were listing and talking about just code s , so both are right.
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I've got a question about how the wiki displays the group stage results.
Since GSL group stages are basically a double elimination 4 person mini-bracket, unlike IEM and MLG where they count individual wins and losses to determine placing, why not display it as a small bracket?
I think it would look nicer and cleaner. Or at least have the bracket displayed in the little drop down, which currently shows the individual match ups and sets.
The GSL system also seems a lot cleaner and less convoluted than the IEM and MLG ones (I know there are other tournaments who use it). You've all seen the casters get confused and discuss what 3 way ties are possible or not for 10 minutes and still get it wrong. That also creates possibility for matches that don't matter to one player, however the other one can still advance if they win. That actually puts the player who has nothing to win in an odd situation, if he is to say play against a friend, he would be more inclined to lose, because he would gain nothing from winning and would have a friend who also got knocked out.
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On February 08 2012 22:35 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:33 teamamerica wrote:On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 % Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM. that's because you didn't change to 2011, which is here: http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=23717&gamever=0&mapid=0goms stats are perfect and updated a few mins after games are played 
Oh thanks, I'm retarded! But this is only Code S?
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On February 08 2012 22:27 Apolex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong. 32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind? Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at.
I never said anything about nerfing terran. No idea why you think so. I said that boosting terran lategame in PvT is complex because terran late game in TvZ is already strong.
I dont know what stats you are using. Is it ladder stats? Im diamond myself and I often play games over 20 min against terran. But that doesnt mean that we are on equal grounds after 20 min because terran can be turtling while he lets me as zerg take the whole map.
I am talking about TvZ pro level. I do know that it requires alot of skill and apm to make full use of terran late and all its potential. It does however become very strong once you do master it. I am a bit baffled you havent seen this in pro games where the multitasking is on such a high level and nukes are going off on multiple places, snipes are killing any broodlords, siegetanks and planetarys blocking any ground armys. Terran late game in TvZ has enormous potential, but it requires great skill. Thats why i am talking about PRO games.
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On February 08 2012 22:29 FXOpen wrote:
Reads 1 page of this thread... *runs back and forth with my hands in the air screaming and laughing histerically*...
Someone calling EMP underpowered really made my day... my gosh....
FXOBoss wins the "comment of the thread" award. But in all honesty, give it time for players to figure out timings and to tweak their playstyles? Just because Protoss has suddenly turned strong in one season is no reason to call for nerf or buff for any races.
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On February 08 2012 22:38 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:35 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:33 teamamerica wrote:On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 % Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM. that's because you didn't change to 2011, which is here: http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=23717&gamever=0&mapid=0goms stats are perfect and updated a few mins after games are played Oh thanks, I'm retarded! But this is only Code S?
both, you can also see extra tourneys and gstl, which my initial numbers included
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Yeah it is was very predictable, but i went for jjaki in G1 just because i though he would be wise enough to come with a couple all-ins to win a bo3, but lose in the final one where Parting would figure him out.
It came out that jjakki went for macro builds instead and got dominated as I expected.
So 3/4. 
And yet another TvZ god bites the dust.
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On February 08 2012 22:38 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:27 Apolex wrote:On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong. 32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind? Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at. I never said anything about nerfing terran. No idea why you think so. I said that boosting terran lategame in PvT is complex because terran late game in TvZ is already strong. I dont know what stats you are using. Is it ladder stats? Im diamond myself and I often play games over 20 min against terran. But that doesnt mean that we are on equal grounds after 20 min because terran can be turtling while he lets me as zerg take the whole map. I am talking about TvZ pro level. I do know that it requires alot of skill and apm to make full use of terran late and all its potential. It does however become very strong once you do master it. I am a bit baffled you havent seen this in pro games where the multitasking is on such a high level and nukes are going off on multiple places, snipes are killing any broodlords, siegetanks and planetarys blocking any ground armys. Terran late game in TvZ has enormous potential, but it requires great skill. Thats why i am talking about PRO games.
mlg providence stats brohan. pro level 32% win for terran lategame
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On February 08 2012 22:37 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:21 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight. EMP nerf is also quite recent and IMHO the biggest reason terran is doing much more poorly in lategame TvP. I don't really see this as an issue, havent seen enough games where emp "barely" missed and the 0.5 extra range would have made a difference. Look at the last engagement of game 2 of parting vs Jjakji. Even with the reduced EMP AoE, the Ghosts were still able to hit almost all of the protoss army. Why did he lose that engagement? Parting had 3 mining bases while Jjakji only had 1 (he had a base at the 11 and 4 o clock location but no SCV's). Is there a problem late game PVT? maybe but these games cannot be used as evidence since in both games, Parting was up 2 bases for over 5 mins. (Game 1 Jjakji got his 4th completely denied by a single DT all game long)
The EMP nerf is HUGE. You can effectively only hit 1 archon with an emp, making chargelot/archon replenishment after the main battle very strong. In addition to that, it's much much harder to hit all the templar with emps, and if you have collosi+templar with energy for storms the lategame battle is always going to favor the protoss.
Jjakji couldn't kill any of the mining bases because templar+cannon+warpin is too strong, even after killing off Parting's main army. Could Jjakji have been in a better position? Yes. Would it have made a huge difference? Hard to say. If Jjakji hadn't lost that base and Parting hadn't subsequently lost his whole army, I think most people who know the tvp/pvt endgame still say that Jjakji loses.
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On February 08 2012 22:37 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:21 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight. EMP nerf is also quite recent and IMHO the biggest reason terran is doing much more poorly in lategame TvP. I don't really see this as an issue, havent seen enough games where emp "barely" missed and the 0.5 extra range would have made a difference. Look at the last engagement of game 2 of parting vs Jjakji. Even with the reduced EMP AoE, the Ghosts were still able to hit almost all of the protoss army. Why did he lose that engagement? Parting had 3 mining bases while Jjakji only had 1 (he had a base at the 11 and 4 o clock location but no SCV's). Is there a problem late game PVT? maybe but these games cannot be used as evidence since in both games, Parting was up 2 bases for over 5 mins. (Game 1 Jjakji got his 4th completely denied by a single DT all game long)
You can't just look at one engagement and say "he still EMPed the entire army, so the nerf doesnt matter".
What the EMP nerf does is that it forces the terran to play more passive, as they need more ghosts to get the same result, and ghosts are really slow and expensive to build. Previously a terran might reproduce 4 ghosts after winning a big fight and they would have enough energy to EMP to deal with any reinforcements the protoss might have, but now its just not enough and what looked like a decisive victory for terran ends up as nothing when they cannot deal with the warp-ins cost effectively.
Note that I'm not even talking about EMP hitting templar, snipe is usually preferrable to it. What I'm talking about is EMP carpet bombing the entire protoss army which is pretty much necessary if you want to come ahead in lategame battles.
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I knew Parting was going to be an absolute beast about a month ago when he played Jjakji in the KSL and held off Jjakjis early Marine/Marauder pressure with only stalkers from a one gate expand. Parting Fighting!
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On February 08 2012 22:40 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:38 teamamerica wrote:On February 08 2012 22:35 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:33 teamamerica wrote:On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 % Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM. that's because you didn't change to 2011, which is here: http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=23717&gamever=0&mapid=0goms stats are perfect and updated a few mins after games are played Oh thanks, I'm retarded! But this is only Code S? both, you can also see extra tourneys and gstl, which my initial numbers included
Oh site imba ^^ that was a waste of 10 minutes counting LOL. I think race switching + random missed games is messing with wiki. I can't understand how the 2012 rates are so so different for Wiki and the Gom site though. Oh well! ESL time!
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I got 0/4 on the other groups of this Ro4... Now I get 4/4.
Life is good, and you now love Parting. MC to take this season.
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On February 08 2012 22:44 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:37 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:21 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight. EMP nerf is also quite recent and IMHO the biggest reason terran is doing much more poorly in lategame TvP. I don't really see this as an issue, havent seen enough games where emp "barely" missed and the 0.5 extra range would have made a difference. Look at the last engagement of game 2 of parting vs Jjakji. Even with the reduced EMP AoE, the Ghosts were still able to hit almost all of the protoss army. Why did he lose that engagement? Parting had 3 mining bases while Jjakji only had 1 (he had a base at the 11 and 4 o clock location but no SCV's). Is there a problem late game PVT? maybe but these games cannot be used as evidence since in both games, Parting was up 2 bases for over 5 mins. (Game 1 Jjakji got his 4th completely denied by a single DT all game long) Note that I'm not even talking about EMP hitting templar, snipe is usually preferrable to it. What I'm talking about is EMP carpet bombing the entire protoss army which is pretty much necessary if you want to come ahead in lategame battles.
To be honest, before the emp nerf it was not as much as "coming ahead" in lategame battles, rather "roll straigth through". It seems to me that Protoss mechanics are quite hard to balance, and Blizzard's simplistic mechanics and slow attitude somewhat enlarge this problem.
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On February 08 2012 22:43 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:38 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:27 Apolex wrote:On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong. 32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind? Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at. I never said anything about nerfing terran. No idea why you think so. I said that boosting terran lategame in PvT is complex because terran late game in TvZ is already strong. I dont know what stats you are using. Is it ladder stats? Im diamond myself and I often play games over 20 min against terran. But that doesnt mean that we are on equal grounds after 20 min because terran can be turtling while he lets me as zerg take the whole map. I am talking about TvZ pro level. I do know that it requires alot of skill and apm to make full use of terran late and all its potential. It does however become very strong once you do master it. I am a bit baffled you havent seen this in pro games where the multitasking is on such a high level and nukes are going off on multiple places, snipes are killing any broodlords, siegetanks and planetarys blocking any ground armys. Terran late game in TvZ has enormous potential, but it requires great skill. Thats why i am talking about PRO games. mlg providence stats brohan. pro level 32% win for terran lategame
MLG isn't really pro level since it includes lots of bad players in the open brackets. There were only a couple of high level TvZ games in the whole tournament, so too small of a sample size. MVP and MMA have no problems with zerg in late game.
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IF marineking gets first tomorrow, i seriously believe he will get to the final and lose to MC's 3rd championship.
Here, i called it. :p
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All hail the PRESIDENT! MC hell yeah that's what I want to see.
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Nice to see protoss doing something in the GSL again.
And to all the balance whining (flames, valid arguements, all of it) I seem to remember last year this time after a PvZ where MC crushed July, entie essays written about how imbalanced forcefields were ect. And yet nothing about FF was changed, and the meta shifted the next GSL (along with infester buff) and bam it was toss who couldn't win.
Just saying I agree PvT is a very fickle match up, but I don't think it has evolved enough to be imbalanced, seeing as it has shifted in the last month or 2 back to toss after them being helpless for so long. Equilibrium will be resolved. And if not, hopefully HOTS will change it :D
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Terran 1-6 today, good examples of why terran has 20% win rate vs protoss past 20 minutes..
User was warned for this post
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EPT
