[GSL] 2012 Season 1 Code S Ro16 Group C - Page 150

On February 08 2012 22:03 FidoDido wrote:


so does that means protoss players like you are so used to losing that after 1 good day, they all start to use negative sarcasm to start flame wars on the forums?

On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...

Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.

That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.

Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.

I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months).

Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...

The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.

And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.

What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word.

+ Show Spoiler +

On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...

Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.

That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.

Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.

I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months).

Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...

The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.

And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.

What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word.

+ Show Spoiler +

On February 08 2012 21:51 Destructicon wrote:
While I love the fact that PvT has actually evolved and gotten out of the 1 base and 2 base all-in phase, and toss has learned how to macro and defend drops. It seems a bit, disheartening to see that no terran has actually won a straight up macro game against a Protoss in this GSL season, with all things being equal.

I've watched all games this GSL season, and I don't want terrans resorting to strictly 1 or 2 base attacks, the same way Toss has, just to win, I'd like it if both sides had equal chances to win late game as well as early and mid game.

Hopefully this is just a temporary play and people figure something out late-game TvP.
Again, it may also be a map problem, maybe maps now are favoring Toss way more than in the past, because everyone went and ran scared that toss wasn't winning anything, so they build super friendly FE maps.

On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:


The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion.

On February 08 2012 22:05 Bagi wrote:

I have messed around with thors strats quite a bit when the energy was removed and no, thors get absolutely raped by large numbers of colossi as long as there is a meatshield inbetween them. I haven't even tried making thors since they buffed the immortal, but what was a 2range (+ possibility to use strike cannons) advantage is now only 1 range, I doubt it will be much help as long as the protoss isn't completely retarded with his immortal control.

Even back when thors were a much better option in TvP you would still need vikings against colossi and ghosts against pretty much any lategame protoss army. Just watch Thorzain vs Tyler in the TSL3, Tyler responds by massing colossi which Thorzain counters with vikings. Thors alone don't counter robo tech at all.

On February 08 2012 22:11 Megaman_X wrote:

thats true. I forgot about the immortal range buff. I lost to a meching terran who used this strat against me on a diamond ladder game and it worked well but this was before the immortal buff. I even had around 8x 3-3 collosus but he pulled scvs to mass repair. Thought I'd shared this counter-intuitative strat.

On February 08 2012 22:09 MrCon wrote:

It's normal, when a new style appear, it takes time to be figured out.
TvP lategame is hard, no doubt about it, but it's up to the players to figure things out, and the first reflex of people should be to think how to figure it out and not "wow this is strong, so it's imba".
A lot of recent strategies would look imba if you played them in the one year ago context.

But why is it wrong to talk about this subject in a LR thread? It's part of the game in general and more importantly it's part of the games we are watching while posting in this thread. When's the appropiate time to talk about the balance of a game, if not when you are watching it live for everyone to watch and see exactly what you are talking about.

Yes, some people will just blindly flame and they deserve to be banned, but avilo makes some good point and there is definitely room for discussing his points. He doesn't just go "protoss imba derp" he explains his thought process and makes some good points. Why not discuss it? it's part of the game and it's presented in a mature manner. Don't be so uptight man.

On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:


Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back.

The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again.

On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:


Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them?

On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:


Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game.

In the same way Protoss were as you say "unbeatable" in PvZ what happened is that Blizzard patched the game making fungal better and then Z won more. Since then they have patched it again by nerfing fungal slightly and parasite range by a large amount while giving buffs to protoss in Immortal range and upgrades.

I really find this argument that people magically figure everything out a bit of a hollow one. These great moments of thought involved with figuring out a certain way to win in a match up are often heavily aligned to a balance change introduced by Blizzard.

On February 08 2012 22:04 Cheerio wrote:

lol i feel you are one biased terran

On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:


Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game.

On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:


Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game.

In the same way Protoss were as you say "unbeatable" in PvZ what happened is that Blizzard patched the game. Since then they have patched it again by zerfing fungal slightly and parasite range by a large amount while giving buffs to protoss in Immortal range and upgrades.

I really find this argument that people magically figure everything out a bit of a hollow one. These great moments of thought involved with figuring out a certain way to win in a match up are often heavily aligned to a balance change introduced by Blizzard.