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On February 08 2012 22:03 FidoDido wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:59 Cheerio wrote:
terrans are so used to winning that even 1 bad day looks like the end of the world for them so does that means protoss players like you are so used to losing that after 1 good day, they all start to use negative sarcasm to start flame wars on the forums?
i'm zerg lol
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On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy.
The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion.
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On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months).Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy.
Perfect?
Game 1: T let his forth base completely denied by a single DT all the way through end game (3 mining bases vs 1)
game 2: T had 45 SCV's vs 71 Probes and could not use mules due to requiring scans.
Needless to say protoss with the better economy was able to remax faster than T especially with warp in.
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On February 08 2012 21:51 Destructicon wrote:
While I love the fact that PvT has actually evolved and gotten out of the 1 base and 2 base all-in phase, and toss has learned how to macro and defend drops. It seems a bit, disheartening to see that no terran has actually won a straight up macro game against a Protoss in this GSL season, with all things being equal.
I've watched all games this GSL season, and I don't want terrans resorting to strictly 1 or 2 base attacks, the same way Toss has, just to win, I'd like it if both sides had equal chances to win late game as well as early and mid game.
Hopefully this is just a temporary play and people figure something out late-game TvP.
Again, it may also be a map problem, maybe maps now are favoring Toss way more than in the past, because everyone went and ran scared that toss wasn't winning anything, so they build super friendly FE maps.
It's normal, when a new style appear, it takes time to be figured out.
TvP lategame is hard, no doubt about it, but it's up to the players to figure things out, and the first reflex of people should be to think how to figure it out and not "wow this is strong, so it's imba".
A lot of recent strategies would look imba if you played them in the one year ago context.
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On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion.
Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them?
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On February 08 2012 22:05 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:56 Megaman_X wrote:On February 08 2012 21:48 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 21:45 Megaman_X wrote:
upgraded thors pretty much hard counter protoss, except for feedback. but good luck getting to that point They hard counter gateway units but get absolutely demolished by immortal/colossus. actually no they dont, not if they're upgraded. 3-3 thors(massed) will dominate 3-3 collosi and do ok against immortals because of the range difference. Try it out yourself. Thors get exponentially effective with increasing upgradess. However, reaching this state of the game is probably impossibl. I have messed around with thors strats quite a bit when the energy was removed and no, thors get absolutely raped by large numbers of colossi as long as there is a meatshield inbetween them. I haven't even tried making thors since they buffed the immortal, but what was a 2range (+ possibility to use strike cannons) advantage is now only 1 range, I doubt it will be much help as long as the protoss isn't completely retarded with his immortal control. Even back when thors were a much better option in TvP you would still need vikings against colossi and ghosts against pretty much any lategame protoss army. Just watch Thorzain vs Tyler in the TSL3, Tyler responds by massing colossi which Thorzain counters with vikings. Thors alone don't counter robo tech at all.
thats true. I forgot about the immortal range buff. I lost to a meching terran who used this strat against me on a diamond ladder game and it worked well but this was before the immortal buff. I even had around 8x 3-3 collosus but he pulled scvs to mass repair. Thought I'd shared this counter-intuitative strat.
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terran tears yo keep em coming hahahaha soooo gooood .
User was warned for this post
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Morrow tears even better hahahahah .
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 08 2012 22:11 Megaman_X wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:05 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 21:56 Megaman_X wrote:On February 08 2012 21:48 Bagi wrote:On February 08 2012 21:45 Megaman_X wrote:
upgraded thors pretty much hard counter protoss, except for feedback. but good luck getting to that point They hard counter gateway units but get absolutely demolished by immortal/colossus. actually no they dont, not if they're upgraded. 3-3 thors(massed) will dominate 3-3 collosi and do ok against immortals because of the range difference. Try it out yourself. Thors get exponentially effective with increasing upgradess. However, reaching this state of the game is probably impossibl. I have messed around with thors strats quite a bit when the energy was removed and no, thors get absolutely raped by large numbers of colossi as long as there is a meatshield inbetween them. I haven't even tried making thors since they buffed the immortal, but what was a 2range (+ possibility to use strike cannons) advantage is now only 1 range, I doubt it will be much help as long as the protoss isn't completely retarded with his immortal control. Even back when thors were a much better option in TvP you would still need vikings against colossi and ghosts against pretty much any lategame protoss army. Just watch Thorzain vs Tyler in the TSL3, Tyler responds by massing colossi which Thorzain counters with vikings. Thors alone don't counter robo tech at all. thats true. I forgot about the immortal range buff. I lost to a meching terran who used this strat against me on a diamond ladder game and it worked well but this was before the immortal buff. I even had around 8x 3-3 collosus but he pulled scvs to mass repair. Thought I'd shared this counter-intuitative strat.
Did you not focus fire the scvs with your collossus and have mass chargelots to buffer for the collossi?
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On February 08 2012 22:09 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:51 Destructicon wrote:
While I love the fact that PvT has actually evolved and gotten out of the 1 base and 2 base all-in phase, and toss has learned how to macro and defend drops. It seems a bit, disheartening to see that no terran has actually won a straight up macro game against a Protoss in this GSL season, with all things being equal.
I've watched all games this GSL season, and I don't want terrans resorting to strictly 1 or 2 base attacks, the same way Toss has, just to win, I'd like it if both sides had equal chances to win late game as well as early and mid game.
Hopefully this is just a temporary play and people figure something out late-game TvP.
Again, it may also be a map problem, maybe maps now are favoring Toss way more than in the past, because everyone went and ran scared that toss wasn't winning anything, so they build super friendly FE maps. It's normal, when a new style appear, it takes time to be figured out. TvP lategame is hard, no doubt about it, but it's up to the players to figure things out, and the first reflex of people should be to think how to figure it out and not "wow this is strong, so it's imba". A lot of recent strategies would look imba if you played them in the one year ago context.
I'm not sure how you can justify calling standard protoss lategame as "new" though, when its the same old unit compositions that have always been around. Terrans have been going MMMVG for almost 2 years now, they should have a decent idea how to play it by now.
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But why is it wrong to talk about this subject in a LR thread? It's part of the game in general and more importantly it's part of the games we are watching while posting in this thread. When's the appropiate time to talk about the balance of a game, if not when you are watching it live for everyone to watch and see exactly what you are talking about.
Yes, some people will just blindly flame and they deserve to be banned, but avilo makes some good point and there is definitely room for discussing his points. He doesn't just go "protoss imba derp" he explains his thought process and makes some good points. Why not discuss it? it's part of the game and it's presented in a mature manner. Don't be so uptight man.
I'm not saying he doesn't have valid points, I'm just saying it would be better posted in the strategy forums because it's the best place for a issue like this to be discussed. Who will look up for a lr thread to get details on this thing ? I'm pretty sure very few people. Just make a good topic, give this games as an example.. provide a link etc... and you will get much more feedback than here. That was what i was trying to say that's all.
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On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again.
Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game.
In the same way Protoss were as you say "unbeatable" in PvZ what happened is that Blizzard patched the game making fungal better and then Z won more. Since then they have patched it again by nerfing fungal slightly and parasite range by a large amount while giving buffs to protoss in Immortal range and upgrades.
I really find this argument that people magically figure everything out a bit of a hollow one. These great moments of thought involved with figuring out a certain way to win in a match up are often heavily aligned to a balance change introduced by Blizzard.
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On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them?
A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong.
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On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. In the same way Protoss were as you say "unbeatable" in PvZ what happened is that Blizzard patched the game making fungal better and then Z won more. Since then they have patched it again by nerfing fungal slightly and parasite range by a large amount while giving buffs to protoss in Immortal range and upgrades. I really find this argument that people magically figure everything out a bit of a hollow one. These great moments of thought involved with figuring out a certain way to win in a match up are often heavily aligned to a balance change introduced by Blizzard.
Its because people whine hard enough to warrant the change rather than just figuring it out. Imagine a game that blizzard hasn't touched for years, yet the meta game keeps changing despite all the balance whining because people just sat down and figured out how to beat the latest "imbalance". Imagine that game...
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Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%.
Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season.
This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good.
But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring.
EDIT: Before any balance whine's about today's strats though, of course you have to give players time to adapt to them. I haven't seen too many televised matches where Toss goes super fast 3 nexus and I'm sure eventually 8gates and the like will be figured out, maybe like 3 tanks to focus fire the sentries and stop FF walls or something to keep you safe while you're getting your stim and upgrades and medivacs out, I honestly don't know but I'm just throwing stuff out there) So I didn't mean for this to be balance (I might tons of whine as I'm watching games but that's not really posting with my head as much as my feelings watching the game ^^ I try to cut down on it but don't let those whine posts detract from the plain numbers I'm posting here). These were just meant to show the overall trend of PvT win at Code S level. Just watching players play against strats they haven't figured out is horribly boring if they turn into one sided stomps.
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On February 08 2012 22:04 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:55 MrCon wrote:On February 08 2012 07:26 MrCon wrote:On February 08 2012 07:20 Drazerk wrote:
Ganzi to take the group easily! Ganzi > MC Jjakji > Parting Ganzi > Jjakji Mark my words, they are wise. Perfect predictions  lol i feel you are one biased terran
No, in fact I'm 4/4 liquidbet, but I had to predict the inverse to not curse myself =)
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On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game.
Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight.
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Seriously guysl stop the whining. It's MC rolling them terrans like a boss that he is. Not a balance issue here.
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Protoss key units are collossi and templars, something they cannot rebuild quickly because it is gas intensive. Collossi can't be warped in and builds slowly while templars need to gain energy before they can cast storm. So the fact that Protoss can warp in quickly isn't as big of a factor as people think it is. It's also balanced by the fact that Terran doesn't rely too much on vikings and ghosts. They're still fine with M&M which are not gas intensive while Protoss really really needs gas intensive AOE units.
Parting just did a better job keeping his gas intensive units alive than Jjakji who threw away his medivacs/vikings and ghosts more often. Jjakji got out harassed and he also lost the templar vs ghost micro battle. More ghosts got feedbacked than templars got sniped. More storms were casted which should have denied by emps. I wish they keep track of such stats so that is is evident that Parting is just the better player.
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On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. In the same way Protoss were as you say "unbeatable" in PvZ what happened is that Blizzard patched the game. Since then they have patched it again by zerfing fungal slightly and parasite range by a large amount while giving buffs to protoss in Immortal range and upgrades. I really find this argument that people magically figure everything out a bit of a hollow one. These great moments of thought involved with figuring out a certain way to win in a match up are often heavily aligned to a balance change introduced by Blizzard.
Again totally false.
The majority of Zerg wins over Protoss do not involve Infestors. The only players to massively abuse infestors are Coca, Stephano and Destiny.
Nestea, DRG, Losira, Leenock who are (aside from Coca) the premier ZvP players don't actually use infestors in a lot if not over half of their games they use muta, roaches, lings, and brood lords. ZvP changed when Zergs realised you had to be the aggressor and split the Protoss up deny their third and fourth bases, build a lot of spines to help against the ball and counter attack as well as not making hydras vs collosus. The infestor nerf was secondary to this in improving ZvP.
In PvT while the ghost was nerfed a lot of players are just doing warp gate timings, or going collosus builds. It's only Parting and San who are using mass storms. Ghosts help against these things but reinstating the EMP nerf into these situation would not completely transform the games. They are decided far more by better builds and better unit control.
Immortals are slightly better, most people aren't using Immortals much in their PvT's and PvZ's. Yes, some people do the odd immortal bust but they are rare.
Terran still has a 50% win rate in TvP most of you crybabys are just sad it's not a free win unlosable game anymore.
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EPT
