EPT[GSL] 2012 Season 1 Code S Ro16 Group C - Page 149
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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PapaJed
Sweden211 Posts
Ok, I havent seem him enough I guess. I hope you´re right, I need a new hope ;-) | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:54 sAsImre wrote: As long as the match up stays bio vs gateway/colo/ht, terran is proned to not be able to win a fight by a margin sufficient to kill the reinforcement. It's just not possible to be that efficient. Maybe we'll see some transitions (bc ?) or more probably heavy nuke play in order to get lucky one time. I think the Problem of TvP for the Terran is you don't have a defensive unit that you can fall back to regroup and transition to something else. In TvZ and TvT you have tanks that provide a good defensive stand . But in TvP tanks are just terrible ( hell even Goody stopped using them ). Which also means if you mess up one you are dead because you can't fall back to your defensive line since you don't have one that will at least do good damage to your opponent. The game just ends if the Terran takes 1 fight that isn't that great. | ||
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TheRidd
713 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote: Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so. Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler + Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. No problem if this is in an appropriate thread i think, just not here where it's a known fact you cant wine/talk about the balance of the game. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:56 Blitzer wrote: Both those bo3's between Parting and Jjakji were amazing. Really smart engagements, strategies, timing and micro. We saw some moves from Parting that other protoss simply don't do. It will be interesting to see how Parting goes against MVP or MMA with their more drop heavy style. Ignoring the whole "MVP is out thing", I don't think anyone will play a more drop heavy style against Parting. His drop/base defence is part of what sets him apart from other toss in late game PvT imo. Always got plenty of templars and cannons everywhere, and has excellent map awareness (+ a ton of observer coverage) so it's rare that you manage to get off a drop without losing stuff to feedback very quickly. I suspect we'll see Terrans gameplanning for him with earlier aggression in at least the near future. | ||
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PapaJed
Sweden211 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:58 beute wrote: so what? he had more stuff and there is NOTHING you can do against a kiting terran army but a moving.. what are you suggesting he should do with zealots and archons? hell, even if he had templars standing nearby, it's not like they will ever get a storm off on a stimpak kiting terran army... he had more stuff and it made sense to chase the terran all the way back, there werent that many medivacs and thus chasing a terran army still deals a lot of dmg even if you dont get a lot of hits off since stimpack isnt healed back up fast enough. I wasn´t complaining about Partings decisions and play, sry you didn´t understand that. I was also a bit angry when I wrote it. I think I´ve explained myself enough now. | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:42 MorroW wrote: well i wouldnt say im happy now^^ im just not super depressed anymore like i was after seeing the 2base bullshit i hope people start to see and realize 2base allin is alot easier to play than solid macro oriented style like we saw parting play those last games. if a toss wins gsl this season i hope to god its some innovative new school protoss whos actually evolving the game and can play solid macro oriented style at the level of parting rather than seeing someone like mc just abuse his way for a silly victory once again Hehe I have to say MorroW, it is quite funny hearing a Terran (and zerg w/e) whine about 2 base all ins  One wonders if it´s because that´s 1 base too many (hehe I made a funny...or not)? And also, playing "safer" is something you should do if this is the predominent playstyle, get a bunch of bunkers, take a in-base third and use the mules to keep your eco going. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
 Anyways, Jjakji did make mistakes in the last two games against Parting... Still, I believe he should've won the games though especially since he won the critical engagements... | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
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Seraphone
United Kingdom1219 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote: Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so. Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. | ||
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FidoDido
United States1292 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:59 Cheerio wrote: terrans are so used to winning that even 1 bad day looks like the end of the world for them so does that means protoss players like you are so used to losing that after 1 good day, they all start to use negative sarcasm to start flame wars on the forums? | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
 Parting just played better. His constant reinforcement with new observers, feedback and storms, were top notch. Positioning and forcefield use as well. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
lol i feel you are one biased terran | ||
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Megaman_X
United States164 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:58 ChaosTerran wrote: In what world do Thors counter chargelots? Thors get absolutely destroyed by chargelots with next to no losses for the protoss player. And Thors good against immortals? yeah.... nope. i didnt say they were good against immortals | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:56 Megaman_X wrote: actually no they dont, not if they're upgraded. 3-3 thors(massed) will dominate 3-3 collosi and do ok against immortals because of the range difference. Try it out yourself. Thors get exponentially effective with increasing upgradess. However, reaching this state of the game is probably impossibl. I have messed around with thors strats quite a bit when the energy was removed and no, thors get absolutely raped by large numbers of colossi as long as there is a meatshield inbetween them. I haven't even tried making thors since they buffed the immortal, but what was a 2range (+ possibility to use strike cannons) advantage is now only 1 range, I doubt it will be much help as long as the protoss isn't completely retarded with his immortal control. Even back when thors were a much better option in TvP you would still need vikings against colossi and ghosts against pretty much any lategame protoss army. Just watch Thorzain vs Tyler in the TSL3, Tyler responds by massing colossi which Thorzain counters with vikings. Thors alone don't counter robo tech at all. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:49 mcc wrote: Good then that a lot of terran macro can be done while looking at the battle, whereas protoss actually has to go to his nearest pylon. Judging races on one particular aspect of their play is stupid. Even with perfect terran macro (giving build commands as soon as the units die), your units take 25-40seconds to build and then move out of your barracks, while protoss units warp in in 5seconds and then they are right on the battlefield. Protoss is just fighting with much more supply effectivly, because of that. And this together with the fact that protoss units are quite cost efficiant, it creates a very hard scenario for terran, once the games reaches a stage where both players sit with maxed armies, tons of production facilities and a massive bank, cause it just takes too long to get your reinforcements back to the front line. And it's silly to say, Terran has to multitask more in the lategame. Protoss players usually defend their bases with some cannons and 1-2 High Templars, you really need a huge force to crush this, one medivac is just not enough. But if you send too much, your main army may just get oblitorated in exchange and you lose the game. Not to say, that with blink, there is another well working drop defence avaiable for protoss. Lategame TvP is a really hard task for Terran, because the drawbacks on their way of unit production really starts to kick in then. The maxed armies of protoss and terran are very well balanced in their power and oftentimes small errors of one side will decide the outcome. But after the battles protoss reinforces faster and oftentimes starts to attack a terran base, while the rebuild terran units are weaker in numbers and out of position. | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On February 08 2012 22:00 TheRidd wrote: No problem if this is in an appropriate thread i think, just not here where it's a known fact you cant wine/talk about the balance of the game. But why is it wrong to talk about this subject in a LR thread? It's part of the game in general and more importantly it's part of the games we are watching while posting in this thread. When's the appropiate time to talk about the balance of a game, if not when you are watching it live for everyone to watch and see exactly what you are talking about. Yes, some people will just blindly flame and they deserve to be banned, but avilo makes some good point and there is definitely room for discussing his points. He doesn't just go "protoss imba derp" he explains his thought process and makes some good points. Why not discuss it? it's part of the game and it's presented in a mature manner. Don't be so uptight man. | ||
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Imbattable
Germany85 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:55 ChaosTerran wrote: Good point. Pretty much exactly proves my point though. You know what people do when they run out of arguments and realize they are wrong? They resort to ad hominem attacks. well played sir. Just because you claim that what I say is incorrect, doesnt mean it's incorrect... that's not a basis for any argument... ever. Except that the statement you made does hardly make an argument. It is rather an assumption you present as fact. But I think there is no use to all this balance whine. It will get figured out by the pros and then Terrans will wipe the floor with Protoss again, until Protoss metagame evolves (repeat till infinity). | ||
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PapaJed
Sweden211 Posts
On February 08 2012 21:59 Cheerio wrote: terrans are so used to winning that even 1 bad day looks like the end of the world for them Welcome to the forum and your first day of starcraft! I hope you enjoy your stay. | ||
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