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On February 08 2012 22:01 Azzur wrote:So pissed atm...!!!  Anyways, Jjakji did make mistakes in the last two games against Parting... Still, I believe he should've won the games though especially since he won the critical engagements...
But this is the awesome thing ! This is the day the "critical engagements" end ! Rejoice people, this is the day where the one fight into gg era comes to an end ! This is exciting 
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On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight.
This. There seems to be an increasing attitude in the mapping community that a map is bad if it doesn't address issues which are about balance.
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I'm surprised so many terrans are taking this series between Jjakji and Parting in the round of 16 so seriously in terms of balance. NO ONE plays like Parting. Lets give it some time , i'm sure you will still win GSL terrans, let us have a few in round of 8.
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On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight.
EMP nerf is also quite recent and IMHO the biggest reason terran is doing much more poorly in lategame TvP.
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On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight.
Zerg is better than Protoss in super super late game unless you are a total scrub who lets his entire brood lord fleet get vortexed.
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On February 08 2012 08:31 ydeer1993 wrote:
Quote me on Parting finishing the group in 1st!
Hmm.. Close Enough!
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On February 08 2012 22:21 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:18 Clogon wrote:On February 08 2012 22:13 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:03 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:
Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins...
Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is.
That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up.
Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem.
I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so.
Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings...
The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game.
And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely.
What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. Top Terran's like Bomber, MMA, MVP, Polt, Puma didn't have to practice TvP for a long time because for them the matchup was virtually unlosable. As a result they're struggling to keep up now Protoss actually have got their together. Give them a few months and Terran's will come roaring back. The exact same thing happened in PvZ where Protoss couldn't lose for months on end and when Zerg figured out what to do (plus Infestor buff) Protoss had no clue how to play vs Zerg anymore and are only recently actually starting to win vs Zerg again. Protoss haven't just magically "figured things out" have they though. Blizzard has patched the game. Blizzard barely patched anything for protoss. +1 range on immortals yet they still remain unpopular in many tvp's. The only thing that made a slight impact was the cheaper upgrades. What changed wasn't blizzard's doing but map creators making larger maps that made expanding easier for protoss. When a protoss can get 5+ bases and 20 gateways, you can be damned sure that they are unstoppable regardless of which race they fight. Zerg is better than Protoss in super super late game unless you are a total scrub who lets his entire brood lord fleet get vortexed.
You obviously havent encountered 3-3-3 void rays with mothership etc :p
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On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring.
Or you could go to the liquipedia page called
Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_Statistics
And see a 62.5% win rate PvT
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On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong.
32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind?
Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at.
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On February 08 2012 22:20 Popsicler wrote:
I'm surprised so many terrans are taking this series between Jjakji and Parting in the round of 16 so seriously in terms of balance. NO ONE plays like Parting. Lets give it some time , i'm sure you will still win GSL terrans, let us have a few in round of 8.
I'm sure a lot of stems from the fact that is so closely resembles the majority of TvP's we play. In several games Jjakji had a big supply lead and simply could not attack the protoss due to the combination of zealots, storm and colossus. In a couple of games Parting basically donated an army and could not be killed due to warp-in chargelots and storms.
What was especially egregious was the game on cloud kingdom where parting forgets charge, is on one forge, has his third denied twice, donates his entire army for basically nothing and still could not be killed. Jjakji even made a fourth base planetary fortress, which was simply right clicked on and killed in a matter of seconds with no losses by protoss. What are we supposed to do when protoss gets up 3 bases, templar and colossus tech, and uses cannons+ templar to stop drops? In so many of my own games vs protoss I will be up in bases, have a bigger army, better upgrades and still lose to storm/colossus/chargelot. It is frustrating as hell to macro and have it do so little.
And that's not even mentioning the game where protoss took a 6 minute third and did a 10 minute attack against a bunkered up 2 base terran, and killed the terran. That just defies RTS logic.
It isn't that protoss won, it is the way the games looked. At a certain point in the game it just doesn't seem winnable unless the protoss makes a big mistake, and even today we saw protoss make huge mistakes by donating armies and still winning.
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On February 08 2012 22:13 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:09 MrCon wrote:On February 08 2012 21:51 Destructicon wrote:
While I love the fact that PvT has actually evolved and gotten out of the 1 base and 2 base all-in phase, and toss has learned how to macro and defend drops. It seems a bit, disheartening to see that no terran has actually won a straight up macro game against a Protoss in this GSL season, with all things being equal.
I've watched all games this GSL season, and I don't want terrans resorting to strictly 1 or 2 base attacks, the same way Toss has, just to win, I'd like it if both sides had equal chances to win late game as well as early and mid game.
Hopefully this is just a temporary play and people figure something out late-game TvP.
Again, it may also be a map problem, maybe maps now are favoring Toss way more than in the past, because everyone went and ran scared that toss wasn't winning anything, so they build super friendly FE maps. It's normal, when a new style appear, it takes time to be figured out. TvP lategame is hard, no doubt about it, but it's up to the players to figure things out, and the first reflex of people should be to think how to figure it out and not "wow this is strong, so it's imba". A lot of recent strategies would look imba if you played them in the one year ago context. I'm not sure how you can justify calling standard protoss lategame as "new" though, when its the same old unit compositions that have always been around. Terrans have been going MMMVG for almost 2 years now, they should have a decent idea how to play it by now.
Yeah TvP lategame being hard isn't knew, but the way Parting got there is new. I haven't seen any other protoss play like him before.
TvP lategame is hard but in the past year, how many TvP went lategame ? And with the 3 radius EMP, it wasn't even a problem. Now it's a problem, but it's a problem because of recent changes and because 111 is less powerful than before. So it's something terrans have to deal with regularly now. So they'll learn how to deal with it, that's just how things always go and I don't think it's different this time.
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Reads 1 page of this thread... *runs back and forth with my hands in the air screaming and laughing histerically*...
Someone calling EMP underpowered really made my day... my gosh....
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On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT
liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0
you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are:
tvp 48,7%
tvz 58,7 %
pvz 62,2 %
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On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT
Yo, you read my post? I'm counting since 2011 season and I mentioned for this season, 2012, it's not 5-3 it's 30-16 (I wrote 30-16, I recounted and it's 30-17 in my recount) mapscore.
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Awesome games today, can't wait for the interview translations..
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On February 08 2012 22:20 Popsicler wrote:
I'm surprised so many terrans are taking this series between Jjakji and Parting in the round of 16 so seriously in terms of balance. NO ONE plays like Parting. Lets give it some time , i'm sure you will still win GSL terrans, let us have a few in round of 8.
Parting played well, but there was nothing out of the ordinary or revolutionary at all. Just solid protoss macro play.
Jjakji couldn't finish off Parting at any point despite winning key battles over and over, and eventually died. The constant storming was very reminiscent of San also, and that's not a good thing as it was something imbalanced, granted it's not as extreme.
If we got a Protoss looking like San even though the amulet is gone, then something's off balance wise.
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On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 %
Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM.
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Anyone thinks that Parting's unit composition was different than most lategame Protoss? He had such low stalker count that it doesn't seem he was ever interested in protecting his Collossi. That allowed him to have much more Templars than usual. I think Jjakji was caught off guard by how many Templars with storm that Parting had in reserve.
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On February 08 2012 22:33 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On February 08 2012 22:24 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 22:18 teamamerica wrote:Some stats just for people saying derp derp Terran used to shit on everyone. Going by Code S matches since GSL january 2011, the GSL events listed here the PvT winrate has been 50.4%. Got this by summing the statistics page for each tourny and handcounting the matches for this season (the summary page isn't accurate yet or it might be counting series when I'm counting games and the summary for every other season was map scores). There haven't really been trends - it was horrible in GSL Jan, great the next one, around .500 for the next two, horrible in the next one (that's the 8-23 super one), great in the next one, equally bad in the next one, bad, good, and currently they're at 30-16 map scores for this season. This is of course only Code S GSL matches and you can't draw any broad conclusions about this besides the fact that when Terran plays Protoss in GSL code S, it's pretty even and lately pretty good. But seriously, since we're talking Code S here, it's been pretty even, with some seasons going really badly for them and some going really well for them. So watching Toss's stomp here isn't some divine justice for their year long trial of suffering and losing. It's just boring. Or you could go to the liquipedia page called Code S 2012 Season 1 Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S_StatisticsAnd see a 62.5% win rate PvT liquipedia stats aren't complete, gom's own stats are though http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0you can see that for all of 2012 gsl games, the map winrates are: tvp 48,7% tvz 58,7 % pvz 62,2 % Ah cool, never saw that. I know liquidpedia isn't perfect but I can't see a way to filter that into solely Code S. And their statistics are just weird to use, i.e. look at the results for this query. It displays 0W/0L for GSL August. So while liquidpedia isn't perfect, I'll take it over GOM.
that's because you didn't change to 2011, which is here:
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=23717&gamever=0&mapid=0
goms stats are perfect and updated a few mins after games are played
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On February 08 2012 22:34 kheldorin wrote:
Anyone thinks that Parting's unit composition was different than most lategame Protoss? He had such low stalker count that it doesn't seem he was ever interested in protecting his Collossi. That allowed him to have much more Templars than usual. I think Jjakji was caught off guard by how many Templars with storm that Parting had in reserve.
And he teched to colossus and produced only ONE, baiting a lot of useless viking supply, and then he reproduced only 2 colossus when he killed all the vikings. I was screaming at him for doing this, but it was obviously planned and went pretty well.
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EPT
