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On February 08 2012 22:38 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:27 Apolex wrote:On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong. 32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind? Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at. I never said anything about nerfing terran. No idea why you think so. I said that boosting terran lategame in PvT is complex because terran late game in TvZ is already strong. I dont know what stats you are using. Is it ladder stats? Im diamond myself and I often play games over 20 min against terran. But that doesnt mean that we are on equal grounds after 20 min because terran can be turtling while he lets me as zerg take the whole map. I am talking about TvZ pro level. I do know that it requires alot of skill and apm to make full use of terran late and all its potential. It does however become very strong once you do master it. I am a bit baffled you havent seen this in pro games where the multitasking is on such a high level and nukes are going off on multiple places, snipes are killing any broodlords, siegetanks and planetarys blocking any ground armys. Terran late game in TvZ has enormous potential, but it requires great skill. Thats why i am talking about PRO games.
It's actually just games analyzed from the hundreds of games from providence. So it' doesn't exactly paint a "whole" picture of the matchup.
But what you describe is terran out playing the zerg, what is the zerg doing while the terran is multi-tasking like crazy and around the whole map?
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How bout some MC love on this thread!
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On February 08 2012 22:57 Applesqt wrote:
Just goes to show if the game goes past 20 minutes terran can't win against protoss..
nice sample size
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On February 08 2012 22:59 Apolex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:38 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:27 Apolex wrote:On February 08 2012 22:16 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 22:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion. Sorry dude, but terran is really strong lategame TvZ? Did you not see the win graphs where terran only had a 32% win rate in 20+ minutes TvZ games? Genuine question, have you just not seen the graphs or are you just ignoring them? A 20+ minute game is not the definition i use when speaking about lategame. The game can be 25 minutes long but one player could have had an advantage for some time and just have better economy etc. I mean late game 200/200 on both sides where all tech is available etc. I watch most gsl games every season and lots of other tournaments. I guess you dont because its pretty obvious that mass ghosts, nukes, planetary walls etc are pretty strong. 32% win rate for terrans in TVZ when the game goes beyond 20 minutes ... .. means that in games where the tvz exceeds 20 minutes ... only 32% of the terrans are able to win the match while 68% of the zergs are taking the game. Meaning zergs only allow terrans to get the so called "strong" late game 32% of the time. So what your saying is ... blizzard should nerf terran late game more... so if blizzard decides to nerf late game terran further, the 32% becomes ... 25%, you will be happier because it's balanced in your mind? Similarly terrans win around 70% of the time at the 8 minute mark in tvz? That is something that blizzard should have a look at. I never said anything about nerfing terran. No idea why you think so. I said that boosting terran lategame in PvT is complex because terran late game in TvZ is already strong. I dont know what stats you are using. Is it ladder stats? Im diamond myself and I often play games over 20 min against terran. But that doesnt mean that we are on equal grounds after 20 min because terran can be turtling while he lets me as zerg take the whole map. I am talking about TvZ pro level. I do know that it requires alot of skill and apm to make full use of terran late and all its potential. It does however become very strong once you do master it. I am a bit baffled you havent seen this in pro games where the multitasking is on such a high level and nukes are going off on multiple places, snipes are killing any broodlords, siegetanks and planetarys blocking any ground armys. Terran late game in TvZ has enormous potential, but it requires great skill. Thats why i am talking about PRO games. It's actually just games analyzed from the hundreds of games from providence. So it' doesn't exactly paint a "whole" picture of the matchup. But what you describe is terran out playing the zerg, what is the zerg doing while the terran is multi-tasking like crazy and around the whole map?
That is the problem, nothing zerg can multi-task on super late game except defending drops and perhaps nydusing. The number of harass options terran has late game is uncomparable to zerg's lackluster harassment.
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On February 08 2012 22:57 Applesqt wrote:
Just goes to show if the game goes past 20 minutes terran can't win against protoss..
And you are only the 15th person to state this, in todays LR thread. Good job.
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I'm gonna be honest, MC made it out and to me, that's all that really matters. But gratz to Parting! He didn't get affected by Artosis and TL writer curse. Also I think jjakji prepared more for GanZi than for Parting
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On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread!
You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP)
I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT
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On February 08 2012 23:12 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread! You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP) I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT
I never really liked MC's play for that reason. Love his personality. But his play is just... he's good at what he does though
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On February 08 2012 23:12 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread! You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP) I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT
Parting did timing attacks too. He just lost so he had the chance to play more games. Not MC's fault he only played 2 non pvp games, against Ganzi who is vastly inferior to him in the matchup.
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MC's good at reading the game. He doesn't go blind all in. He's a reactionary all in player. If you see the oppourtunity, why shouldn't you go for it? Especially with those sharp, fast timings
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On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread!
I agree, where is all the bosstoss love.
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TeamLiquid is so funny. Finally Protoss punches back, and now all you can hear is "IMBALANCE IMBALANCE - MY PRECIOUS TERRAN IS SO WEAK - How can it be that in the Ro8 there are not at least 4-5 Terrans? What is happening blizzard!!! Fix this madness!  "
We have heard this before havn´t we? "Oh NOES! Infestors getting nerfed, now there is NO way to deal with protoss deathball, zerg will lose 100% of the time, BLIZZARD FIX THIS!"
And we even heard it again "OH NOES! Protoss can´t win 1-1-1!!! What is this bullshit! Imbalance - Imbalance - please help us protosses out!"
Certainly, sometimes small balance changes have come from blizzard to help a little bit, but never more then that. I don´t think the immortal buff was even needed to fight off 1-1-1. Small changes to the map pool + Protoss innovation did the job just fine. Same can be said about the infestor nerf, which was a Destiny nerf  , Zerg´s as a whole didn´t get that "terrible" resaults and they managed to innovate enough so that in the last year, Zerg has had the second best win ratio in the GSL, after the very underpowered Terran race.
![[image loading]](http://s7.postimage.org/y9o0pw7wr/graph.png)
+ Show Spoiler +This is Code S/Code A statistics for these tournaments. The January one is just the games played so far
This is the last 3 GSL´s - Somehow we have a bunch of Terrans whining on this thread about how OP protoss is, how OP 2 base all ins are from protoss and how OP protoss is late game. Terran has a lot of ways to deal with protoss, the fact is, Terran´s havn´t had to worry about protosses in the GSL because, well...the race has been so under-powered/under-represented in the GSL in the last 6 months that at some points it has seemed like a 2 race game.
Now so far in the GSL January 2012 it seems that Protoss is actually having the highest win rate, beating out Terran by 3%. This GSL is not over, and somehow I feel confident in taking a bet with anyone, that when it´s over, Terran will, once again in yet another GSL have the highest win ratio of all the races.
Also you have to take something into consideration. These are the "top top" Protoss and Zerg´s who are playing in the GSL code A/S. These are the ones that have managed to stick there/get there in spite of Terran´s dominance. The higher protoss win rate could partially be attributed to Terrans, who got there on the wings of Terran dominance, can´t stay there when the other races fight back and have had small buffs from Blizzard. You have to remember, Terran is around 50% of the GSL and seems to only now have stopped growing that number, around GSL November, it looked like it would just keep on growing and growing, that is, the number of Terrans in the GSL, thankfully that didn´t happen.
Now - I suggest as many have suggested above me, do not go into full panic just because your race has fallen behind in win ratio against 1 race, you are still around 60% win ratio in the GSL, and somehow you dare to whine? Sure looks like some race is used to only...winning...
I have to say though, where is the outrage at what is going on with zerg? Zerg seems to be struggling so much, mainly against Terran, a 66% win ratio in TvZ is pretty hard core...Yet my great friend MorroW is quick to point out "there is HUGES trouble with TvP" not mentioning TvZ which funny enough are his specialities and the 2 races he playes, maybe he just doesn´t understand Protoss as well? Maybe that is why the matchup vs protoss is more or a struggle for him then the more unbalanced ZvT? Who knows, I know that I don´t know the answer to that but it´s just a thought.
At the very least, YES I know it´s a big shock seeing protoss rise above the 40% that it was in, and now reaching 60% but this is mostly innovation, cleaner builds, and last but not least, this is the forefront of protoss play, these are the top top players. With Terran you have effectively 2-3 tiers of them just within Code S/A and they display varying quality.
There might be something wrong with PvT - but shouldn´t we let 1-2 GSL´s pass - or at least see if it won´t just be a Terran like usually who wins this GSL, before we start burning races at the stake and whining imbalance. Maybe the game is just evening out, and that would require Terrans seeded above their skill level to drop down, and this goes for everyone, from top top GM down to Plat, maybe we see Terrans fall down a little through these leagues, who knows.
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Woah stop it already. This is not the thread for balance discussions
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Yeah juicy terran tears keep it up guys, I think I might save some quotes about terran not being able to beat protoss for when protoss has like 3 guys in code s again :D
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For once I bet right on LB :D
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Oooohhh yes MC and Parting through? Brilliant. I'll grab my canoe and paddle through this thread of terran tears later tonight 
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Russian Federation798 Posts
I think the terran's started to whine a couple of months ago too when toss somehow had a higher win rate. That died down soon after because terran is still strong so guys please there is no point in whining, don't let terran sink down to the protoss and zerg level of balance whining.
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On February 08 2012 23:21 n0btozz wrote:TeamLiquid is so funny. Finally Protoss punches back, and now all you can hear is "IMBALANCE IMBALANCE - MY PRECIOUS TERRAN IS SO WEAK - How can it be that in the Ro8 there are not at least 4-5 Terrans? What is happening blizzard!!! Fix this madness! " We have heard this before havn´t we? "Oh NOES! Infestors getting nerfed, now there is NO way to deal with protoss deathball, zerg will lose 100% of the time, BLIZZARD FIX THIS!" And we even heard it again "OH NOES! Protoss can´t win 1-1-1!!! What is this bullshit! Imbalance - Imbalance - please help us protosses out!" Certainly, sometimes small balance changes have come from blizzard to help a little bit, but never more then that. I don´t think the immortal buff was even needed to fight off 1-1-1. Small changes to the map pool + Protoss innovation did the job just fine. Same can be said about the infestor nerf, which was a Destiny nerf , Zerg´s as a whole didn´t get that "terrible" resaults and they managed to innovate enough so that in the last year, Zerg has had the second best win ratio in the GSL, after the very underpowered Terran race. + Show Spoiler +This is Code S/Code A statistics for these tournaments. The January one is just the games played so far This is the last 3 GSL´s - Somehow we have a bunch of Terrans whining on this thread about how OP protoss is, how OP 2 base all ins are from protoss and how OP protoss is late game. Terran has a lot of ways to deal with protoss, the fact is, Terran´s havn´t had to worry about protosses in the GSL because, well...the race has been so under-powered/under-represented in the GSL in the last 6 months that at some points it has seemed like a 2 race game. Now so far in the GSL January 2012 it seems that Protoss is actually having the highest win rate, beating out Terran by 3%. This GSL is not over, and somehow I feel confident in taking a bet with anyone, that when it´s over, Terran will, once again in yet another GSL have the highest win ratio of all the races. Also you have to take something into consideration. These are the "top top" Protoss and Zerg´s who are playing in the GSL code A/S. These are the ones that have managed to stick there/get there in spite of Terran´s dominance. The higher protoss win rate could partially be attributed to Terrans, who got there on the wings of Terran dominance, can´t stay there when the other races fight back and have had small buffs from Blizzard. You have to remember, Terran is around 50% of the GSL and seems to only now have stopped growing that number, around GSL November, it looked like it would just keep on growing and growing, that is, the number of Terrans in the GSL, thankfully that didn´t happen. Now - I suggest as many have suggested above me, do not go into full panic just because your race has fallen behind in win ratio against 1 race, you are still around 60% win ratio in the GSL, and somehow you dare to whine? Sure looks like some race is used to only...winning... I have to say though, where is the outrage at what is going on with zerg? Zerg seems to be struggling so much, mainly against Terran, a 66% win ratio in TvZ is pretty hard core...Yet my great friend MorroW is quick to point out "there is HUGES trouble with TvP" not mentioning TvZ which funny enough are his specialities and the 2 races he playes, maybe he just doesn´t understand Protoss as well? Maybe that is why the matchup vs protoss is more or a struggle for him then the more unbalanced ZvT? Who knows, I know that I don´t know the answer to that but it´s just a thought. At the very least, YES I know it´s a big shock seeing protoss rise above the 40% that it was in, and now reaching 60% but this is mostly innovation, cleaner builds, and last but not least, this is the forefront of protoss play, these are the top top players. With Terran you have effectively 2-3 tiers of them just within Code S/A and they display varying quality. There might be something wrong with PvT - but shouldn´t we let 1-2 GSL´s pass - or at least see if it won´t just be a Terran like usually who wins this GSL, before we start burning races at the stake and whining imbalance. Maybe the game is just evening out, and that would require Terrans seeded above their skill level to drop down, and this goes for everyone, from top top GM down to Plat, maybe we see Terrans fall down a little through these leagues, who knows.
I'm sorry, I know we aren't supposed to talk balance in the LR threads but I can't help but respond this post. I'm honestly sick and tired of people like this who strictly look at GSL results to talk about balance. Yes, we know protoss has struggled in the GSL, but everywhere else they have been doing just fine, in fact they have been doing better than fine. Before the most recent protoss buffs/terran nerfs we saw both NaNiwa and HuK take huge tournament wins, with fields including many of the GSL caliber koreans. The fact of the matter is Protoss was fine in PvT before receiving multiple buffs. Now protoss players have adjusted their game and along with the buffs/nerfs it has become an imbalanced matchup, not OP, but imbalanced. Terran still has great potential, you just have to be MMA or MVP to reach that potential. Whereas protoss can be used with scary effectiveness by just about anyone. The fact of the matter is, outside of the GSL Protoss was competing just fine before receiving a number of buffs.
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On February 08 2012 22:07 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:57 avilo wrote:Protoss players have improved a hell of a lot tbh. Before protosses were the ones balance complaining 24/7 not even realizing they had really damn good stuff like warp prisms and this lategame turtle with templar + chargelot warp-ins... Parting played great yes...in some instances...that does not mean there's not a problem with the match-up, especially when it comes to late game or 2 base forcefield/immortal all-ins. People are too touchy when it comes to balance stuff. There is obviously a huge problem lategame TvP that is not being addressed and it's only starting to crop up now because the overall level of protoss players has reached the point where it's now very abusable and easy to see how messed up it is. That does not mean Parting didn't play good...so please don't interpret my opinion as me thinking parting did not play well. He played PvT exactly how you are supposed to play it right now - get to 3 bases 6 gas with 3/0/3 and turtle with templar + mass chargelot/archon warp-ins while killing Terran's freshest base and taking +1 new base themself and cannoning it up. Jjakji had no answer it's true. The commentators even had their mouths agape at points wondering wtf "how is parting doing this" essentially. Every Terran pro/gm/high level player you talk to will tell you there is a huge problem late game in TvP for Terran right now, something known as "imbalance." These games were a demonstration of exactly that problem. I think it's fine to talk about it if people don't just blatantly flame someone else, right? Instead of being touchy, reference the actual games and what happened? Because these games are the PERFECT demonstration of what every pro Terran player has been talking about the past month or so (actually last few months). Does it mean there's no answer to this lategame protoss "imbalance?" Theoretically, the answer is (and artosis in his cast even said this at one point as well) that at the tip top level of TvP/PvT both players theoretically CAN'T attack each other. It makes for an insanely dumb late game where both players are sitting there because the Terran cannot break the Protoss because of cannons/feedbacking drops/mass chargelot warp-ins, and the Protoss cannot break the Terran because of planetary walls/emps/defensive nukes/vikings... The only problem is if you get to this lategame if Protoss wins the big battle, they win the game automatically from instant reinforcements, whereas if Terran wins the battle, Protoss is STILL in the game due to defensive warp-ins + defensive storms. If Terran loses, his units are being produced in the barracks so he loses his freshest mining base and slowly loses the game. And even then, as a Terran you cannot put that turtle vs turtle lategame theory into practice unless it's a map that you can split in half securely. What's wrong with discussing these aspects of the match-up? These games just played were RIDICULOUS in many senses of the word. + Show Spoiler +Even so, for people that watched the game 1 of the last series between parting/jjakji, it's insanely hard to justify/defend a player that basically loses 160 supply for free, and then is still in the game and then wins the game vs a player that kept 80% of their army alive...that is a bit fucking crazy. The problem is that terran is so very strong in late game TvZ. That makes the issue very complex because you want to adress the PvT late game with out boosting terran in TvZ. Hopefully blizzard are following the development closely and will improve the game with the upcoming expansion.
lol what? do you even play terran because nobody who does would say T is strong in lategame tvz ,.i cant recall any match-up except tvt where i feel comfortable going late game -.- (atleast without huge lead)
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Wow my money was on MC and Jjakji... but Parting (wtf totally surprised) had Jjakji's number the whole time...
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EPT
