[GSL] 2012 Season 1 Code S Ro16 Group C - Page 155

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Bashion

Cook Islands2612 Posts

February 08 2012 15:21 GMT

#3081

The whinning made this thread one of the worst LR threads i ve ever seem

SupLilSon

Malaysia4123 Posts

February 08 2012 15:23 GMT

#3082

On February 09 2012 00:15 Lorch wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 09 2012 00:09 SupLilSon wrote:

On February 08 2012 23:56 Lorch wrote:

On February 08 2012 23:45 SupLilSon wrote:

On February 08 2012 23:21 n0btozz wrote:
TeamLiquid is so funny. Finally Protoss punches back, and now all you can hear is "IMBALANCE IMBALANCE - MY PRECIOUS TERRAN IS SO WEAK - How can it be that in the Ro8 there are not at least 4-5 Terrans? What is happening blizzard!!! Fix this madness!

"

We have heard this before havn´t we? "Oh NOES! Infestors getting nerfed, now there is NO way to deal with protoss deathball, zerg will lose 100% of the time, BLIZZARD FIX THIS!"

And we even heard it again "OH NOES! Protoss can´t win 1-1-1!!! What is this bullshit! Imbalance - Imbalance - please help us protosses out!"

Certainly, sometimes small balance changes have come from blizzard to help a little bit, but never more then that. I don´t think the immortal buff was even needed to fight off 1-1-1. Small changes to the map pool + Protoss innovation did the job just fine. Same can be said about the infestor nerf, which was a Destiny nerf

, Zerg´s as a whole didn´t get that "terrible" resaults and they managed to innovate enough so that in the last year, Zerg has had the second best win ratio in the GSL, after the very underpowered Terran race.

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +

This is Code S/Code A statistics for these tournaments. The January one is just the games played so far

This is the last 3 GSL´s - Somehow we have a bunch of Terrans whining on this thread about how OP protoss is, how OP 2 base all ins are from protoss and how OP protoss is late game. Terran has a lot of ways to deal with protoss, the fact is, Terran´s havn´t had to worry about protosses in the GSL because, well...the race has been so under-powered/under-represented in the GSL in the last 6 months that at some points it has seemed like a 2 race game.

Now so far in the GSL January 2012 it seems that Protoss is actually having the highest win rate, beating out Terran by 3%. This GSL is not over, and somehow I feel confident in taking a bet with anyone, that when it´s over, Terran will, once again in yet another GSL have the highest win ratio of all the races.

Also you have to take something into consideration. These are the "top top" Protoss and Zerg´s who are playing in the GSL code A/S. These are the ones that have managed to stick there/get there in spite of Terran´s dominance. The higher protoss win rate could partially be attributed to Terrans, who got there on the wings of Terran dominance, can´t stay there when the other races fight back and have had small buffs from Blizzard. You have to remember, Terran is around 50% of the GSL and seems to only now have stopped growing that number, around GSL November, it looked like it would just keep on growing and growing, that is, the number of Terrans in the GSL, thankfully that didn´t happen.

Now - I suggest as many have suggested above me, do not go into full panic just because your race has fallen behind in win ratio against 1 race, you are still around 60% win ratio in the GSL, and somehow you dare to whine? Sure looks like some race is used to only...winning...

I have to say though, where is the outrage at what is going on with zerg? Zerg seems to be struggling so much, mainly against Terran, a 66% win ratio in TvZ is pretty hard core...Yet my great friend MorroW is quick to point out "there is HUGES trouble with TvP" not mentioning TvZ which funny enough are his specialities and the 2 races he playes, maybe he just doesn´t understand Protoss as well? Maybe that is why the matchup vs protoss is more or a struggle for him then the more unbalanced ZvT? Who knows, I know that I don´t know the answer to that but it´s just a thought.

At the very least, YES I know it´s a big shock seeing protoss rise above the 40% that it was in, and now reaching 60% but this is mostly innovation, cleaner builds, and last but not least, this is the forefront of protoss play, these are the top top players. With Terran you have effectively 2-3 tiers of them just within Code S/A and they display varying quality.

There might be something wrong with PvT - but shouldn´t we let 1-2 GSL´s pass - or at least see if it won´t just be a Terran like usually who wins this GSL, before we start burning races at the stake and whining imbalance. Maybe the game is just evening out, and that would require Terrans seeded above their skill level to drop down, and this goes for everyone, from top top GM down to Plat, maybe we see Terrans fall down a little through these leagues, who knows.

I'm sorry, I know we aren't supposed to talk balance in the LR threads but I can't help but respond this post. I'm honestly sick and tired of people like this who strictly look at GSL results to talk about balance. Yes, we know protoss has struggled in the GSL, but everywhere else they have been doing just fine, in fact they have been doing better than fine. Before the most recent protoss buffs/terran nerfs we saw both NaNiwa and HuK take huge tournament wins, with fields including many of the GSL caliber koreans. The fact of the matter is Protoss was fine in PvT before receiving multiple buffs. Now protoss players have adjusted their game and along with the buffs/nerfs it has become an imbalanced matchup, not OP, but imbalanced. Terran still has great potential, you just have to be MMA or MVP to reach that potential. Whereas protoss can be used with scary effectiveness by just about anyone. The fact of the matter is, outside of the GSL Protoss was competing just fine before receiving a number of buffs.

I think you overrestimate these buffs/nerfs. Immortal buff was a pvp change for the most part, the fact that we see these immortal timings is not because they magically became possible because immortals have 1 more range, it's because people started playing around with immortals when they got buffed. Pretty much the same for the update buff, for 3/3 it's like 75/75 that you actually safe, that buff was a 100% metagame change. And pls keep in mind that before emp nerf that damn thing had more range than fumble and storm, all this change did was to make sure that lesser skilled terrans can't just emp spam stim a move roflstomp around.

You said it yourself if you are really good at terran you can still absolutly destroy protoss, I thought we should talk about balance on the highest level. If you look at foreign terrans there are very few that are on the same level of play as a korean code s terran, BUT if a better play can deal with something that a lesser player can't that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced that means the lower level player needs to stop qqing and actually practice to become better. I just feel like a lot of wood league terrans are having a hard time right now vs protoss, see protoss doing well in a tournament (besides the fact that thus far terran had the most in every gsl code s round this season and they are still even with protoss in the ro8..) and start bitching asap. Worst part is when some pro who doesn't even play the matchup comes in and agrees. If a terran looses to a protoss at this point it's because he played worse not because the game is imbalanced, same goes the other way around.
Protoss did do the worst in gsl at the time of their downfall (though during the exact same time they were in fact doing poorly in foreign competitions as well), huk won at the end of the slump, not during it. The only big win naniwaw had was the global invitational and at that point protoss was clearly out of the slump.

Also as terrans said when toss was qqing: Adapt/innovate you are just playing bad lolololololol!!!

Immortal buff may have been intended to PvP but it sure as hell plays a role in PvT. Protoss players love to bleat on about how little the buffs were and how they hardly have any affect, yet we already see a 20% increase in GSL, the place where protoss has stuggled the most? Maybe they didnt need the buffs then? I dont know. And yea, if youre MVP or MMA you can still beat protoss, aside from them it's pretty bleak. I thought JJiakji was supposed to be a TvP specialist, guess not.. And there were tons of Protoss victories before and during this "slump". Naniwa had his miracle run through MLG, MaNa has been stomping Terrans for god knows how long. PuMa got stomped by HerO, despite using the IMBAOP 1-1-1. And like another poster said, despite GSL results, the fact is, many of us Terrans have struggled with TvP for a LONG time. We arent MVP, we don't have 300 APM and BW mechanics. The sheer amount of skill Terran needs to win in this matchup is daunting and is why we are seeing so many strong Terrans get stomped if they aren't miles above the rest of the competition.

I don't know about the Mana one as I don't watch a lot of EU starcraft but everything else you listed happened at the end of the slump/when it was already over. If you actually watch jjkaji's games vs protoss during his run to code s champion you'll see that he did so by using wierd timings/allins and not while doing standard MM compositions. When all you have is like 3 guys any increase will have the sickest %-rate, thanks to the old format there were a lot of bad terrans in code s and at the same time a lot of young and talented protoss came through from code a, also please keep in mind that this season still 50% of code s were terran.
How can you bitch about something being to hard to being too skillful? That's what fucking motivates me to play this game, what motivated me to play brood war, the fact that it is hard and sometimes the metagame will be at a point were it's harder for one race than the other, but the solution to that is not qqing, top terrans show that protoss is certainly beatable with what you have, if you care enough about this game to cry about balance you should care enough to put in the time. Also chances are the protoss you are facing are not even close to being as good as the ones mma/mvp face so you certainly don't need to be on their level in the first place.

Lol you do. Because protoss can imitate professional quality play a lot more easily. For terran it is virtually impossible to replicate what we see in the GSL simply because our fingers and brain won't do it. For protoss you can watch and GSL vod and go stomp some ladder with w/e timing you just replicate. Terran is so much about the execution of strategy that even the all powerful 1-1-1 was hardly a viable option for many of us even when it was considered OP. And if anything top terrans have been showing that protoss is extremely hard to beat, and many of them have come out and said Protoss is OP. But w/e I;m done becuase this isnt the right place for balance talk.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

February 08 2012 15:24 GMT

#3083

On February 09 2012 00:19 Piledriver wrote:
Frankly, I would be more than happy if Terran struggles for about 5-6 months, because that's what has been happening for the other two races. No race deserves to be on the top for the entire duration of the game's existence. Also as terran's kept saying when toss was down, "its just a metagame thing, terran is just more developed", I think its time for us to use the same logic. "Terran has been winning all the time, so they were not forced to innovate and they have stagnated, so they are beginning to lose now"

Am I right or am I right?

As long as it leads to terran buffs like with the other races that struggled, I'm happy either way.

rtsAlaran

Germany383 Posts

February 08 2012 15:25 GMT

#3084

just came home from an exam..
1st thing to do after greeting gf and daughter: check how mc did!

wohoo nice!

IgnE

United States7681 Posts

February 08 2012 15:26 GMT

#3085

How can people not realize that whine about lategame play where it's pretty well established that unit compositions for the terran cannot really get much better is qualitatively different from whine about a certain timing attack/allin. It's possible to tweak build orders/building placement/play style to defend against attacks. But there's far less room to "innovate" in a late game scenario where the unit composition is set. At maxed 200/200 on equal bases protoss has a huge advantage in PvT and the only way to innovate around that is to try and prevent that situation from occurring in the first place.

I think most terrans didn't feel too bad about using 111 when it worked (it blows now that toss have figured it out) was because they knew that going into a late game on equal footing with a protoss was a death wish.

I'm not wood league - I play high masters players and run into GMs on the NA server - and my feeling is that as long as a protoss player turtles and uses his observers to make the right unit/tech/upgrade decisions it will be very hard to win the game, even if I'm up on bases or have a faster economic headstart. I admit it can be hard for protosses to learn how to defend against the various allins that the other races can do, but the amount of tactical skill required in late game scenarios is vastly more for the terran player in any relatively equal game. The joke is that you can't even be too greedy as a terran player to try and get a lead because now protosses have figured out how to kill you while being up on bases.

n0btozz

Iceland115 Posts

February 08 2012 15:28 GMT

#3086

On February 08 2012 23:45 SupLilSon wrote:

Show nested quote +

riiiiight...So taking a whole year of the highest level of play, code S/code A - is not applicable because HuK and Naniwa manged to go far in big tournaments?

Son - your logic is flawed.

In code S/code A players have time to prepare, you see the highest caliber games in the most balanced setting. MLG or any "weekend" tournament like that has more varying factors then say the GSL. First of all, the caliber of play is higher in the GSL, but not only that matters. Jet lag - playing for lengthy amounts of time - Little preperation. These are all things the GSL doesn´t have to deal with. At the highest level, protoss has been constantly struggling and you just don´t want to face that

cyclone25

Romania3344 Posts

February 08 2012 15:30 GMT

#3087

On February 09 2012 00:16 lamz wrote:
jesus crist terrans, can you PLEASE STOP whine? how many times have we seen toss in GSL FINALS? like 4 times, how many terrans? like 11 thousand. and if we get back few months back did any of you terrans remember how we had like 2 toss in RO16 while like 12 terrans and 0 toss in RO8 while all other was 7 terrans and Nestea, jesus crist pathetic.

Past results (except the last 2-3 months), mean nothing. Protoss got buffed a lot since then. You can't bring very old results into the current balance discussion.

I'm not saying that Protoss is OP now, but if you want to talk balance, do it properly.

Apolex

Canada103 Posts

February 08 2012 15:32 GMT

#3088

On February 09 2012 00:24 Bagi wrote:

Show nested quote +

As long as it leads to terran buffs like with the other races that struggled, I'm happy either way.

except if toss used charge lots / archons / hts reinforcements 6 months ago, they would've still be in the same position they are now. So in that case, it was toss not using everything they have. As for terrans, it is very hard to transition and swift to other units other than bio. it doesn't make sense to build factories and upgrade mech 15 minutes into the game...

while stalkers / sentires/ zealots / hts / dts / archons all come from warp ins and uses the same upgrades.

MrCon

France29748 Posts

February 08 2012 15:35 GMT

#3089

On February 09 2012 00:21 Bashion wrote:
The whinning made this thread one of the worst LR threads i ve ever seem

Seriously the whine is not that bad, protoss and zerg whine was way worse in my memory.
The funny thing is that there are most posts that whine about the whine than whine posts. (edit : after this page this isn't really true anymore xD)
Both are bad, but this thread is pretty much ok compared to what we've seen before.

s3rp

Germany3192 Posts

February 08 2012 15:35 GMT

#3090

I think the biggest mistake most Terrans make is still trying to play straight up. On 3+ Bases . That just doesn't work and yeah it sucks that it doesn't . But i rather cheesing / pushing the hell out of my opponent even if i lose then play i the current fucked up TvP lategame. You can basically leave the game if you allow the Protoss opponent to reach
his endgame.

TvZ endgame is at least alot of fun to play even if its hard. TvP is not even fun to play its just frustrating.

Kamais Ookin

Canada591 Posts

February 08 2012 15:39 GMT

#3091

MC is back? Fuck yeah he is!

iAmBiGbiRd

Australia1029 Posts

February 08 2012 15:39 GMT

#3092

Stupid argument by Terrans, since release Terran has consistently been the #1 race, and don't jump down my throat saying im crying as i mean results wise. In that period both Zerg and Protoss have had huge downfalls where, you guessed it, they struggled vs Terran. Sure toss deathballs were effective vs Zerg for a while then with infestor buff infestor Broodlord became very tough for toss to beat. During both these periods Terran > Zerg/Toss quite comfortably. I think the funniest moment during this was a six month + period when Toss was getting Fucking stomped (I don't mean beaten, i mean stomped all day every day) but one tournament HuK managed to win and MC came 4th? So everyone said OMG TOSS IS BACK IT ISN'T WEAK OMG. Look at this, Terran do bad in one NOT EVEN COMPLETED SEASON of GSL and the Terran tears are flowing. Can i ask who won the last IEM, who won the last season of GSL, who won the last season of NASL??

I rest my case, now quit bitching and actually change your playstyle like the other races had too and with all due respect shut the fuzz up

MrCon

France29748 Posts

February 08 2012 15:45 GMT

#3093

On February 09 2012 00:39 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
Stupid argument by Terrans, since release Terran has consistently been the #1 race, and don't jump down my throat saying im crying as i mean results wise. In that period both Zerg and Protoss have had huge downfalls where, you guessed it, they struggled vs Terran. Sure toss deathballs were effective vs Zerg for a while then with infestor buff infestor Broodlord became very tough for toss to beat. During both these periods Terran > Zerg/Toss quite comfortably. I think the funniest moment during this was a six month + period when Toss was getting Fucking stomped (I don't mean beaten, i mean stomped all day every day) but one tournament HuK managed to win and MC came 4th? So everyone said OMG TOSS IS BACK IT ISN'T WEAK OMG. Look at this, Terran do bad in one NOT EVEN COMPLETED SEASON of GSL and the Terran tears are flowing. Can i ask who won the last IEM, who won the last season of GSL, who won the last season of NASL??

I rest my case, now quit bitching and actually change your playstyle like the other races had too and with all due respect shut the fuzz up

I think the conclusion is that people from all races should just not bitch at all.
People have a really short memory, when you put things into their context and see the mid and long term, it's never as bad as people think.

NeilSC

114 Posts

February 08 2012 15:45 GMT

#3094

The community is making this game shit. Everyone cries about balance to the extent that blizzard actually listens to it.

Stop all the QQ and just play... You are not pro, you play for fun. If you feel your race is weak so what? Their are tons of people who play your race that are way better then you so you still have lots of room for improvement!!!

cyclone25

Romania3344 Posts

February 08 2012 15:45 GMT

#3095

On February 09 2012 00:21 Bashion wrote:
The whinning made this thread one of the worst LR threads i ve ever seem

Just leave your "nice games today" comment and go away then.

Many pro players discussed the current PvT balance during today's matches, do you think people will just ignore their comments?

People like you who post one-liners whining about the balance whiners are even worse. If you think someone has gone too far, just report him and be done with it.

I personally like to read well argumentated opinions about today's matches, even if they include balance discussion.

mrtomjones

Canada4020 Posts

February 08 2012 15:47 GMT

#3096

haha exactly.. the best Terran in the world is still in the GSL and got here beating down Protoss. Of course I refer to MMA. Toss struggled for a LONG time till recently and it wasn't really any buffs that made them start doing better in GSL but more of a strategy shift and general skill increase once MC wasn't the only one making new strategies etc. It could still be a Terran winning this tournament beating multiple Toss on the way which would imply to me that they are beatable and that perhaps with some strategy adjustments it could swing the other way.

Piledriver

United States1697 Posts

February 08 2012 15:51 GMT

#3097

On February 09 2012 00:24 Bagi wrote:

Show nested quote +

As long as it leads to terran buffs like with the other races that struggled, I'm happy either way.

I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I highly doubt if Blizz would even touch Bio with a bargepole, because even slightly buffing it would destroy early game for other two races. If anything, you might see a small mech buff, but overall, I think we are going to have to wait for HotS for the matchup to be shaken up with Battle hellions and the new mech unit (forgot its name), along with the shredder + PFs to make up for mech immobility.

-TesteR-

Canada1165 Posts

February 08 2012 15:53 GMT

#3098

On February 09 2012 00:30 cyclone25 wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is no way to talk balance properly, its a bias shit slinging contest from each race, especially in an LR thread.

DarkPlasmaBall

United States44317 Posts

February 08 2012 15:55 GMT

#3099

On February 09 2012 00:08 Apolex wrote:
The reason why a lot of terrans are quick to jump to the conclusion that toss is overpowered just from these few games is reflective on their own laddering. It is safe to say that from bronze to even GM , terran is having hell of a time facing protoss. Now that the korean pros are finally falling to toss, terrans can actually come out and voice themselves without being shut down by toss saying " well jjakji can do it" .

Why is it safe to say that, when the statistics consistently show that Terran stays ahead of Protoss in the TvP win percentage for tournaments and the highest level of play?

And as far as generic ladder goes: Terran walls off, Terran 1/1/1s, Terran can go ahead and end the game early (how many hardcore macro late games are you going to see from bronze and silver players? how many below the level of master league properly represent the true strength of each race?).

Quite frankly, I'd like to see Terrans have trouble *for one decent period of time* (and by that I mean a 3-4 month span of ~45% win ratios in both TvZ and TvP), so they know what Protoss and Zerg have had to go through several times, but this isn't it yet.

Is it a sin for a round of 8 in the GSL to not be half-Terran? Or a symbol that we may be nearing some sort of actual balance?

neoghaleon55

United States7435 Posts

February 08 2012 15:55 GMT

#3100

never seen terrans struggling so hard in the GSL code S before.
Brings a smile to my face.

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