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On February 09 2012 00:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 00:08 Apolex wrote:
The reason why a lot of terrans are quick to jump to the conclusion that toss is overpowered just from these few games is reflective on their own laddering. It is safe to say that from bronze to even GM , terran is having hell of a time facing protoss. Now that the korean pros are finally falling to toss, terrans can actually come out and voice themselves without being shut down by toss saying " well jjakji can do it" . Why is it safe to say that, when the statistics consistently show that Terran stays ahead of Protoss in the TvP win percentage for tournaments and the highest level of play? And as far as generic ladder goes: Terran walls off, Terran 1/1/1s, Terran can go ahead and end the game early (how many hardcore macro late games are you going to see from bronze and silver players? how many below the level of master league properly represent the true strength of each race?). Quite frankly, I'd like to see Terrans have trouble *for one decent period of time* (and by that I mean a 3-4 month span of ~45% win ratios in both TvZ and TvP), so they know what Protoss and Zerg have had to go through several times, but this isn't it yet. Is it a sin for a round of 8 in the GSL to not be half-Terran? Or a symbol that we may be nearing some sort of actual balance?
It can still be half Terran if MarineKing wins tomorrow. It's Alive, Gumiho, MMA, MarineKing then.
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On February 09 2012 00:57 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 00:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2012 00:08 Apolex wrote:
The reason why a lot of terrans are quick to jump to the conclusion that toss is overpowered just from these few games is reflective on their own laddering. It is safe to say that from bronze to even GM , terran is having hell of a time facing protoss. Now that the korean pros are finally falling to toss, terrans can actually come out and voice themselves without being shut down by toss saying " well jjakji can do it" . Why is it safe to say that, when the statistics consistently show that Terran stays ahead of Protoss in the TvP win percentage for tournaments and the highest level of play? And as far as generic ladder goes: Terran walls off, Terran 1/1/1s, Terran can go ahead and end the game early (how many hardcore macro late games are you going to see from bronze and silver players? how many below the level of master league properly represent the true strength of each race?). Quite frankly, I'd like to see Terrans have trouble *for one decent period of time* (and by that I mean a 3-4 month span of ~45% win ratios in both TvZ and TvP), so they know what Protoss and Zerg have had to go through several times, but this isn't it yet. Is it a sin for a round of 8 in the GSL to not be half-Terran? Or a symbol that we may be nearing some sort of actual balance? It can still be half Terran if MarineKing wins tomorrow. It's Alive, Gumiho, MMA, MarineKing then.
Very good point. And quite frankly, I expected Jjakji to make it out of this round along with MC, but it's nice to a non-Terran advance instead.
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On February 09 2012 00:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 00:08 Apolex wrote:
The reason why a lot of terrans are quick to jump to the conclusion that toss is overpowered just from these few games is reflective on their own laddering. It is safe to say that from bronze to even GM , terran is having hell of a time facing protoss. Now that the korean pros are finally falling to toss, terrans can actually come out and voice themselves without being shut down by toss saying " well jjakji can do it" . Why is it safe to say that, when the statistics consistently show that Terran stays ahead of Protoss in the TvP win percentage for tournaments and the highest level of play? And as far as generic ladder goes: Terran walls off, Terran 1/1/1s, Terran can go ahead and end the game early (how many hardcore macro late games are you going to see from bronze and silver players? how many below the level of master league properly represent the true strength of each race?). Quite frankly, I'd like to see Terrans have trouble *for one decent period of time* (and by that I mean a 3-4 month span of ~45% win ratios in both TvZ and TvP), so they know what Protoss and Zerg have had to go through several times, but this isn't it yet. Is it a sin for a round of 8 in the GSL to not be half-Terran? Or a symbol that we may be nearing some sort of actual balance?
Well said, i´d also like to add to it a little, I´d not only like to see them go down to 45% but a brief period of around 35% win ratio in all matchups would do them good, then jumping to 4-5 months of 40-45% instead of ALWAYS 50-60% win ratio...That would reflect similar phases for the other races.
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Yeah baby MC gonna be Making Cash this time around. I don't care for whines about 2 base. I think MC is sick sick sick. When sniffs a weakness and pounces with real precision and control unlike any other player. If you take him to a macro game you will lose anyway since he is even better there. Look at the games. He does not lose late game. When he loses is to an all in himself. See polt games. Bomber. Or any other time he was eliminated.
All terrans are fools (and eventual losers) not to 1/1/1, 2/1/1 or two port banshee MC every game it's your only hope.
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On February 09 2012 00:51 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 00:24 Bagi wrote:On February 09 2012 00:19 Piledriver wrote:Frankly, I would be more than happy if Terran struggles for about 5-6 months, because that's what has been happening for the other two races. No race deserves to be on the top for the entire duration of the game's existence. Also as terran's kept saying when toss was down, "its just a metagame thing, terran is just more developed", I think its time for us to use the same logic. "Terran has been winning all the time, so they were not forced to innovate and they have stagnated, so they are beginning to lose now" Am I right or am I right?  As long as it leads to terran buffs like with the other races that struggled, I'm happy either way. I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I highly doubt if Blizz would even touch Bio with a bargepole, because even slightly buffing it would destroy early game for other two races. If anything, you might see a small mech buff, but overall, I think we are going to have to wait for HotS for the matchup to be shaken up with Battle hellions and the new mech unit (forgot its name), along with the shredder + PFs to make up for mech immobility.
Ghosts could go back to 150/150 imo, it might actually somewhat nerf them in TvZ since tanks and thors tend to take most of your gas. EMP could be a bit bigger as well, infestors are so big anyway that a small radius increase (not as big as originally but somewhere inbetween) could be feasible. In before "ghost imba stfu terran noob".
But yeah, we probably won't see a paradigm shift until HOTS.
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On February 08 2012 23:12 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread! You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP) I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT
I don't see why not. His execution is absolutely flawless, and he knows precisely how to dismantle his opponents. So what if most of his strategies are based around two bases or other, singular play? I still don't find it boring, and he's still such a threat that most people still can't stop his attack, even if they know it's coming.
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I can't wait to watch group D ! this GSL is so hard to predict :O
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Both finalists of GSL November are now in Code A.
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MC FIGHTING!!!! Can't wait to watch these games, what a beast!
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On February 09 2012 00:47 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 00:39 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
Stupid argument by Terrans, since release Terran has consistently been the #1 race, and don't jump down my throat saying im crying as i mean results wise. In that period both Zerg and Protoss have had huge downfalls where, you guessed it, they struggled vs Terran. Sure toss deathballs were effective vs Zerg for a while then with infestor buff infestor Broodlord became very tough for toss to beat. During both these periods Terran > Zerg/Toss quite comfortably. I think the funniest moment during this was a six month + period when Toss was getting Fucking stomped (I don't mean beaten, i mean stomped all day every day) but one tournament HuK managed to win and MC came 4th? So everyone said OMG TOSS IS BACK IT ISN'T WEAK OMG. Look at this, Terran do bad in one NOT EVEN COMPLETED SEASON of GSL and the Terran tears are flowing. Can i ask who won the last IEM, who won the last season of GSL, who won the last season of NASL??
I rest my case, now quit bitching and actually change your playstyle like the other races had too and with all due respect shut the fuzz up haha exactly.. the best Terran in the world is still in the GSL and got here beating down Protoss. Of course I refer to MMA. Toss struggled for a LONG time till recently and it wasn't really any buffs that made them start doing better in GSL but more of a strategy shift and general skill increase once MC wasn't the only one making new strategies etc. It could still be a Terran winning this tournament beating multiple Toss on the way which would imply to me that they are beatable and that perhaps with some strategy adjustments it could swing the other way.
you dont read any patchnotes right?
anyway, i dont get it why zerg don't complain way more than T or P since, i can only see 2 zerg advancing in Code S tomorrow and even that is not guaranteed.
i didn't see why protoss were whining back then as i don't see why terran should whine now.
especially here, where most protoss player are regularly bashing through the lower leagues and in the same time crying for buffs.
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Group played out exactly as I predicted in my head (4/4 in liquidbet.) Let the MC domination continue.
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On February 09 2012 01:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 23:12 MrCon wrote:On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread! You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP) I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT I don't see why not. His execution is absolutely flawless, and he knows precisely how to dismantle his opponents. So what if most of his strategies are based around two bases or other, singular play? I still don't find it boring, and he's still such a threat that most people still can't stop his attack, even if they know it's coming.
Well I agree, and I'm not even an allin hater, it's just allins are all MC does since his comeback. (Perhaps he played a pair of macro games, I would be interested if someone could find me one, genuine question in fact). He's dominating, you could argue that he doesn't need more than that and I'd agree. Just not exciting.
I appreciate the precision and "cleanness" of his play, it's just hard to be excited about his games after seeing the 5 jjakji vs glasstoss games. I'm not excited about Puma's perfect 111 either.
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EGJYP: "SK_MC = trash"
Looks like we have a new rivalry! I wonder if Jyp is serious about his post. Some koreans are replying him, he might be ...
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On February 08 2012 23:45 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 23:21 n0btozz wrote:TeamLiquid is so funny. Finally Protoss punches back, and now all you can hear is "IMBALANCE IMBALANCE - MY PRECIOUS TERRAN IS SO WEAK - How can it be that in the Ro8 there are not at least 4-5 Terrans? What is happening blizzard!!! Fix this madness!  " We have heard this before havn´t we? "Oh NOES! Infestors getting nerfed, now there is NO way to deal with protoss deathball, zerg will lose 100% of the time, BLIZZARD FIX THIS!" And we even heard it again "OH NOES! Protoss can´t win 1-1-1!!! What is this bullshit! Imbalance - Imbalance - please help us protosses out!" Certainly, sometimes small balance changes have come from blizzard to help a little bit, but never more then that. I don´t think the immortal buff was even needed to fight off 1-1-1. Small changes to the map pool + Protoss innovation did the job just fine. Same can be said about the infestor nerf, which was a Destiny nerf , Zerg´s as a whole didn´t get that "terrible" resaults and they managed to innovate enough so that in the last year, Zerg has had the second best win ratio in the GSL, after the very underpowered Terran race. ![[image loading]](http://s7.postimage.org/y9o0pw7wr/graph.png) + Show Spoiler +This is Code S/Code A statistics for these tournaments. The January one is just the games played so far This is the last 3 GSL´s - Somehow we have a bunch of Terrans whining on this thread about how OP protoss is, how OP 2 base all ins are from protoss and how OP protoss is late game. Terran has a lot of ways to deal with protoss, the fact is, Terran´s havn´t had to worry about protosses in the GSL because, well...the race has been so under-powered/under-represented in the GSL in the last 6 months that at some points it has seemed like a 2 race game. Now so far in the GSL January 2012 it seems that Protoss is actually having the highest win rate, beating out Terran by 3%. This GSL is not over, and somehow I feel confident in taking a bet with anyone, that when it´s over, Terran will, once again in yet another GSL have the highest win ratio of all the races. Also you have to take something into consideration. These are the "top top" Protoss and Zerg´s who are playing in the GSL code A/S. These are the ones that have managed to stick there/get there in spite of Terran´s dominance. The higher protoss win rate could partially be attributed to Terrans, who got there on the wings of Terran dominance, can´t stay there when the other races fight back and have had small buffs from Blizzard. You have to remember, Terran is around 50% of the GSL and seems to only now have stopped growing that number, around GSL November, it looked like it would just keep on growing and growing, that is, the number of Terrans in the GSL, thankfully that didn´t happen. Now - I suggest as many have suggested above me, do not go into full panic just because your race has fallen behind in win ratio against 1 race, you are still around 60% win ratio in the GSL, and somehow you dare to whine? Sure looks like some race is used to only...winning... I have to say though, where is the outrage at what is going on with zerg? Zerg seems to be struggling so much, mainly against Terran, a 66% win ratio in TvZ is pretty hard core...Yet my great friend MorroW is quick to point out "there is HUGES trouble with TvP" not mentioning TvZ which funny enough are his specialities and the 2 races he playes, maybe he just doesn´t understand Protoss as well? Maybe that is why the matchup vs protoss is more or a struggle for him then the more unbalanced ZvT? Who knows, I know that I don´t know the answer to that but it´s just a thought. At the very least, YES I know it´s a big shock seeing protoss rise above the 40% that it was in, and now reaching 60% but this is mostly innovation, cleaner builds, and last but not least, this is the forefront of protoss play, these are the top top players. With Terran you have effectively 2-3 tiers of them just within Code S/A and they display varying quality. There might be something wrong with PvT - but shouldn´t we let 1-2 GSL´s pass - or at least see if it won´t just be a Terran like usually who wins this GSL, before we start burning races at the stake and whining imbalance. Maybe the game is just evening out, and that would require Terrans seeded above their skill level to drop down, and this goes for everyone, from top top GM down to Plat, maybe we see Terrans fall down a little through these leagues, who knows. I'm sorry, I know we aren't supposed to talk balance in the LR threads but I can't help but respond this post. I'm honestly sick and tired of people like this who strictly look at GSL results to talk about balance. Yes, we know protoss has struggled in the GSL, but everywhere else they have been doing just fine, in fact they have been doing better than fine. Before the most recent protoss buffs/terran nerfs we saw both NaNiwa and HuK take huge tournament wins, with fields including many of the GSL caliber koreans. The fact of the matter is Protoss was fine in PvT before receiving multiple buffs. Now protoss players have adjusted their game and along with the buffs/nerfs it has become an imbalanced matchup, not OP, but imbalanced. Terran still has great potential, you just have to be MMA or MVP to reach that potential. Whereas protoss can be used with scary effectiveness by just about anyone. The fact of the matter is, outside of the GSL Protoss was competing just fine before receiving a number of buffs.
Look, in case anyone is actually reading this thread still, I need to make 1 point to everyone saying "terrans whining once 1 bad day goes for Terrans lololo". The fact is on ladder Protoss have been slaughtering Terrans (esp lategame) for months now, 90%+ of Terrans would agree to this at a high level. Prior to this Terran may have won some GSL games (mostly 1/1/1 etc) but on ladder it was just the same, its just harder to QQ then because Terran won...
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On February 09 2012 01:25 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 01:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 08 2012 23:12 MrCon wrote:On February 08 2012 23:04 Popsicler wrote:
How bout some MC love on this thread! You won't get much :p 4 games, 4 allins (well, 2 of those 4 games were PvP) I'd trade Jjakji for him in the ro8 if I could TT I don't see why not. His execution is absolutely flawless, and he knows precisely how to dismantle his opponents. So what if most of his strategies are based around two bases or other, singular play? I still don't find it boring, and he's still such a threat that most people still can't stop his attack, even if they know it's coming. Well I agree, and I'm not even an allin hater, it's just allins are all MC does since his comeback. (Perhaps he played a pair of macro games, I would be interested if someone could find me one, genuine question in fact). He's dominating, you could argue that he doesn't need more than that and I'd agree. Just not exciting. I appreciate the precision and "cleanness" of his play, it's just hard to be excited about his games after seeing the 5 jjakji vs glasstoss games. I'm not excited about Puma's perfect 111 either.
I see your point from a spectating perspective (although from his point of view, I suppose "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"). And I guess if he was losing more frequently, more people (including myself) would get more frustrated with his resistance to trying new things. I just feel that- for the time being- he's very good at dictating the pace of the game, and then just deciding that he's going to go kill his opponent, so that there's almost no reason not to go all-in (it would only make his attack weaker). But I totally get where you're coming from 
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It says "SK_MC = trash" lol.
What are some replies?
Edit: Calling someone bad (jokingly or seriously) does not create a rivalry. I could say that MVP is trash (although I would never say that); it doesn't automatically make me as good a player as him It also makes me rather stupid...
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On February 09 2012 00:26 IgnE wrote:
How can people not realize that whine about lategame play where it's pretty well established that unit compositions for the terran cannot really get much better is qualitatively different from whine about a certain timing attack/allin. It's possible to tweak build orders/building placement/play style to defend against attacks. But there's far less room to "innovate" in a late game scenario where the unit composition is set. At maxed 200/200 on equal bases protoss has a huge advantage in PvT and the only way to innovate around that is to try and prevent that situation from occurring in the first place.
I think most terrans didn't feel too bad about using 111 when it worked (it blows now that toss have figured it out) was because they knew that going into a late game on equal footing with a protoss was a death wish.
I'm not wood league - I play high masters players and run into GMs on the NA server - and my feeling is that as long as a protoss player turtles and uses his observers to make the right unit/tech/upgrade decisions it will be very hard to win the game, even if I'm up on bases or have a faster economic headstart. I admit it can be hard for protosses to learn how to defend against the various allins that the other races can do, but the amount of tactical skill required in late game scenarios is vastly more for the terran player in any relatively equal game. The joke is that you can't even be too greedy as a terran player to try and get a lead because now protosses have figured out how to kill you while being up on bases.
ghosts, lots of em - try it. I Just saw a game, I think it was with creator, the ultimate turtle toss, just get wrecked by 20 cloaked ghosts. Opposition used scan to kill obs with vikings. Cloaked EMPed and sniped everything. 200/200 was elininated with 20 ghosts left over. Protoss re maxed as they always do but second battle same thing but this time protoss had no money left and couldnt rewarp. GG.
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MC is such B-O-S-S.. He was so good today. Especially, I was so happy with the very first game. "You rush with bunch of marines, here take this 8 gate." Great response.
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On February 09 2012 01:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:It says "SK_MC = trash" lol. What are some replies? Edit: Calling someone bad (jokingly or seriously) does not create a rivalry. I could say that MVP is trash (although I would never say that); it doesn't automatically make me as good a player as him It also makes me rather stupid...
Jyp lost 2-3 to MC at Asus ROG. There has to be a rivalry, I think Jyp played better those games and he was pretty upset about that result.
Here are some replies to Jyp post, but I can't translate them:
TSL.Revival: 오호홓오로로오롱 표정
oGsInCa: 오오미;; 패기가
xSixSleep: 와 다르네요 eg푸우형은.. 근데 저사진 진짜푸우닮음 ㅋㅋㅋ
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EPT
