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On February 08 2012 21:41 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:39 pAzand wrote:On February 08 2012 21:34 Resolve wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 Cramsy wrote:On February 08 2012 21:30 Resolve wrote:
does mass cloaked ghost + viking + scan work against protoss? i saw empire.happy do it against creator that time and it worked really well... maybe more terrans should try it? This just happened but they all died to storms anyway hm... didn't see how jjakji played it but i thought snipe + scans should be good against that, guess not :\ by mass = 24+ ghosts? He played it like this: Step 1: He scanned the army thought there were no observer. He ran all his cloaked ghosts in to the protoss army. Step 2: There were a observer, he got stormed to hell and all his ghost died after casting like 4 emps. Step 3: His tier 1.5 units died to like 8 archons and ~20 zealots. Conclusion: Obviously not a valid strat lategame! And what is then ? Mech and air dies just as fast but replenishes way slower . If you lose even 1 engagement you are dead . It's hard with Bio but impossible with anything else . You can't kill the 20+ Warped in Zealots with just some scraps you just got .
Real conclusion:
It is a valid strat, he just play it like shit. Yeah and landing your vikings, not a good idea, he could have had atleast 10 more medivacs.
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On February 08 2012 21:44 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:42 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates. How do you macro while kiting? not even code s terrans can keep their money low when kiting like crazy, maybe the 3 best terrans in the world can. but even when i watch lau's stream or parting's stream or some other foreign terran their money always shoots up to at least 1,5k when having an engagement where they have to kite. it's easy to say all that as a protoss player when you don't have to spend a single second kiting anything at all. I would like to see you micro while warping in units from a not on-screen pylon.
to be fair you dont even have to spend your money as protoss in a fight because u spend all of your money in insta warpins.
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On February 08 2012 21:44 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:43 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:41 Jojo131 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:41 BansheeDK wrote:On February 08 2012 21:38 Hakanfrog wrote:
Balance whining should be forbidden in these threads :/ It is. I don't know why the mods have been so passive today. I can imagine what a headache it must be every GSL... This one was a lot worse than usual because we had Morrow and Avilo whining. Morrow causes a lot of discussion because he is intelligent and generally well respected. Avilo because his whinings are so inane its hard to let go. Lol you should see avilo's whinings on Gamereplays. He doesn't get modded there cause "he's GM".
I dont go outside of TL often but everyone knows that Avilo is just plain silly.
When I was still a part of VTGaming when Avilo was related to them as well we all knew about this guy.
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On February 08 2012 21:45 Megaman_X wrote:
upgraded thors pretty much hard counter protoss, except for feedback. but good luck getting to that point
Thors are too slow . On a big Map you'll just get outmaneuvered . On more marrow small Maps with less possibilies for counter attacks they can work though.
I hope the new Units that the Thor gets replaced with is at least as fast unsieged tanks i hope maybe even as stalkers.
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it just feels like protoss needed the time to figure their race out. kind of like terran is easier to figure out in the basics and advanced stuff. now that protosses put it the hard work to get shit done with their race they kind of surpass the other races in terms of effectiveness. i dont wanna seem biased, i just try to find an explanation why the dynamics between the races has shifted so much.
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On February 08 2012 21:45 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:44 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:42 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates. How do you macro while kiting? not even code s terrans can keep their money low when kiting like crazy, maybe the 3 best terrans in the world can. but even when i watch lau's stream or parting's stream or some other foreign terran their money always shoots up to at least 1,5k when having an engagement where they have to kite. it's easy to say all that as a protoss player when you don't have to spend a single second kiting anything at all. I would like to see you micro while warping in units from a not on-screen pylon. well, thing is, you dont have to micro as protoss? you dont have to kite and guardian shield is something you can do preemptively and same goes for storms.
Then you get "zealots in back stalkers in front" syndrome. As well as grouped up...... everything.
Which, I mean, we saw.
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On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates.
Please stop making up things to win arguments in an LR, watch PvT replays, Terran players rarely if ever are able to macro while engaging and kiting a protoss force, but Protoss players routinely warp in fresh zealots and ht's during fights. This isn't joe fucking schmoe either, players like MVP, Jjakji, MMA can't even do it lol...
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On February 08 2012 21:45 Megaman_X wrote:
upgraded thors pretty much hard counter protoss, except for feedback. but good luck getting to that point
They hard counter gateway units but get absolutely demolished by immortal/colossus.
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On February 08 2012 21:41 Solo Terran wrote:
People bringing up the fact that Jjakji's ghosts got stormed made the difference in that last fight are stupid. The ghosts got all of their emp's off and the HT's wasted all of their storms on the ghosts. Ghosts dont do shit for damage so all u want them to do is emp and thats what they did while preventing storms... And yet still he got crushed. Cool race.
So you suicide your Ghosts in clumps just to get off EMPs, do you? Cool strat.
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On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose.
Good then that a lot of terran macro can be done while looking at the battle, whereas protoss actually has to go to his nearest pylon. Judging races on one particular aspect of their play is stupid.
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On February 08 2012 21:48 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates. Please stop making up things to win arguments in an LR, watch PvT replays, Terran players rarely if ever are able to macro while engaging and kiting a protoss force, but Protoss players routinely warp in fresh zealots and ht's during fights. This isn't joe fucking schmoe either, players like MVP, Jjakji, MMA can't even do it lol...
Hmmmm? They do. Check out Nada's stream. He is very good with it. His macro + kite leads to longer stutter steps for sure, but the spirit is there.
It doesnt take a long time to queue up Marines and Marauders and whatever. And queueing means you dont have to leave the screen.
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guys, there are 3 terran, 3 protoss, and 2 undetermine in round of 8 right now. Since DRG and Nestea are most likely to advance in the next group, this might just become the most well represented GSL in the history of GSL!
Also protoss is looking good at taking a championshop
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On February 08 2012 21:42 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:38 Fragile51 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 MorroW wrote:
now thats some awesome pvt to see the last few games
sad to see jjakji lose but im happy he lost in this fashion rather to some bullshit Well i'm happy you're happy :p well i wouldnt say im happy now^^ im just not super depressed anymore like i was after seeing the 2base bullshit i hope people start to see and realize 2base allin is alot easier to play than solid macro oriented style like we saw parting play those last games. if a toss wins gsl this season i hope to god its some innovative new school protoss whos actually evolving the game and can play solid macro oriented style at the level of parting rather than seeing someone like mc just abuse his way for a silly victory once again
You really don't think MC can play solid macro style? That's ridiculous. MC has played some of the best macro PvTs in the history of SC2, and has innovated infinitely more than Parting. MC only played 2 games in PvT today, and yes they were both timing attacks, but Ganzi is a far inferior player in that matchup so why not? Also Parting killed jjakji twice with timing attacks. Sure they were different, but it's not like Parting is some pure macro god.
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On February 08 2012 21:46 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:44 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:42 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates. How do you macro while kiting? not even code s terrans can keep their money low when kiting like crazy, maybe the 3 best terrans in the world can. but even when i watch lau's stream or parting's stream or some other foreign terran their money always shoots up to at least 1,5k when having an engagement where they have to kite. it's easy to say all that as a protoss player when you don't have to spend a single second kiting anything at all. I would like to see you micro while warping in units from a not on-screen pylon. to be fair you dont even have to spend your money as protoss in a fight because u spend all of your money in insta warpins.
But to be fair you dont have to look away from your army for a good 5 to 10 seconds and set way points mid fight every time you want to reinforce.
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4713 Posts
While I love the fact that PvT has actually evolved and gotten out of the 1 base and 2 base all-in phase, and toss has learned how to macro and defend drops. It seems a bit, disheartening to see that no terran has actually won a straight up macro game against a Protoss in this GSL season, with all things being equal.
I've watched all games this GSL season, and I don't want terrans resorting to strictly 1 or 2 base attacks, the same way Toss has, just to win, I'd like it if both sides had equal chances to win late game as well as early and mid game.
Hopefully this is just a temporary play and people figure something out late-game TvP.
Again, it may also be a map problem, maybe maps now are favoring Toss way more than in the past, because everyone went and ran scared that toss wasn't winning anything, so they build super friendly FE maps.
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brotoss rising, me likey, me likey, very happy for mc
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On February 08 2012 21:41 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:39 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 Leporello wrote:On February 08 2012 21:35 dragoonier wrote:
What a lot of people missed was the huge worker count difference in the later part of the game. It was 45 to 71 in favor of Parting. So it wasn't very surprising that Parting could lose his whole army and still win. Stop interrupting the whining hyperbole with your facts. Jjakji had at least three orbitals, I didn't bother looking to see if he had macro orbitals. Still, even with three that's three MULEs constantly and therefore +12 to workers. On February 08 2012 21:34 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:33 beute wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. running 10 ghosts into storms = insane kiting micro (not that kiting is anything special anyway) ![[image loading]](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5258/5509611799_82aa328735.jpg) lol i wonder if he scanned before walking up that ramp, if he did, he made a bad decision. He scanned, saw no observer, cloaked his ghosts and then moved them up the ramp in to blind storms from Parting. Still not even on macro, and then there was the mass of Ghosts getting stormed. It was a really close game. Could've gone either way a couple of times.
There were no observers, storm doesn't stack and does 80 damage, ghosts have 100 hp. Every ghost used all it's EMP energy before dying while Parting only got off storms on the ghosts, the MMM ball wasn't touched, Jjakji had a larger army supply than Parting. Both of Parting's colossi died almost instantly at which point Jjakji immediately landed his vikings...
What does T do? Also when you say "could have gone either way" do you mean the situation where Jjakji was around 30 supply up and controlling the centre watch tower directly above Parting's fourth expansion should be a near unwinnable position for Parting? As it certainly would be. Terran would have lost the base before their reinforcements came out of rax and got to the centre of the map. Parting managed to warp in a bunch of DTs nearby, turn them in to Archons and then run in with that and his out of position zealots.
Also to the person saying that T can macro while stutter stepping... A stimmed marauder fires every second, so to macro you need to select your rax hotkey, click around 15 times to produce units out of them and then select your army hotkey and continue stuttering in under a second to be able to macro while microing. To get any stutter at all between marauder shots you'd need a peak of over 1000APM.
To be done in under one in game second:
Select Rax
Press 15 buttons to make units
Select Army
Move command
Attack move or Halt command
Multiply number of button presses + clicks by 1.33 to get from Blizzard time to real time then multiply by 60 to get to actions per minute
That hasn't even counted tabbing the production hotkey to get to medivac vikings.
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On February 08 2012 21:49 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:41 Solo Terran wrote:
People bringing up the fact that Jjakji's ghosts got stormed made the difference in that last fight are stupid. The ghosts got all of their emp's off and the HT's wasted all of their storms on the ghosts. Ghosts dont do shit for damage so all u want them to do is emp and thats what they did while preventing storms... And yet still he got crushed. Cool race. So you suicide your Ghosts in clumps just to get off EMPs, do you? Cool strat. The ghosts are going to die anyways in the engagement What are you going to do leave them in the back of your army and let HT's storm all of your units, then emp and run your ghosts away? The best thing you can do is run your ghosts in and emp as much as possible and then engage which is exactly what happened. But it didn't matter because even if he emp'd everything 7 times he still would have lost because late game protoss is impossible to beat in the hand of a good player.
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On February 08 2012 21:50 Quintum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 21:46 teddyoojo wrote:On February 08 2012 21:44 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:42 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:38 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 21:36 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 08 2012 21:32 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On February 08 2012 21:31 graNite wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 08 2012 21:29 PapaJed wrote:
1A wins again against insane kiting micro. gratz. It definitely had nothing to do with storms and positioning. Nope. You're right. Parting just 1A and took his hands off the keyboard. go play toss and terran! you will see that you have to micro terran much more than protoss. you cant micro zealots, just send them in with 1a. and then the terran player has to micro all day to get rid of them or he will lose. right click and s more difficult than setting up guardian shield + FF + pulling zealots back as they are being kiting too far, storming, etc? Yes it is more "difficult" because it takes forever until you can do something else, you cast guardian shield done, you a move zealots done, you storm done... now do something else. terran? kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite... cant macro... kite, kite. kite. kite.... Ummmm terran can totally macro while kiting I am sorry you cant. Protoss cant no matter how good they get accept out of not warp gates. How do you macro while kiting? not even code s terrans can keep their money low when kiting like crazy, maybe the 3 best terrans in the world can. but even when i watch lau's stream or parting's stream or some other foreign terran their money always shoots up to at least 1,5k when having an engagement where they have to kite. it's easy to say all that as a protoss player when you don't have to spend a single second kiting anything at all. I would like to see you micro while warping in units from a not on-screen pylon. to be fair you dont even have to spend your money as protoss in a fight because u spend all of your money in insta warpins. But to be fair you dont have to look away from your army for a good 5 to 10 seconds and set way points mid fight every time you want to reinforce.
doesn't matter, because protoss doesnt have to micro. you can spend your time casting guardian shield and storms a move zealots and then go surf reddit or TL.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
