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On January 24 2012 01:15 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 03:45 The Final Boss wrote:Liquid 3-1  Zenio > ShuffleZvZ is a pretty anybody-can-win sort of match-up, but not when one of those players is Zenio. He has some of the best ZvZ in the world and I don't see Shuffle standing much of a chance. That being said, since it is ZvZ Bo1 anything could happen, but let's be honest, it probably won't. I think Tal'Darim Altar is so big of a map that it's harder for cheeses to work, and I don't see how Shuffle can stand much of a chance against a S-Class ZvZer like Zenio.  LiquidHerO > AghOnce again, even if PvP is a match-up that produces more build order wins than other match-ups, it is also highly reliant on the micro of the player. Agh is going to need to get lucky to beat HerO. TLO < SaSeI think that from QxG's standpoint, it would have been best to get SaSe matched up against either Ret or one of the Koreans, because he's the one with the best shot, and then they might be able to win it 3-2 with an ace match. TLO is the weakest player that Liquid is sending out, but he's still pretty good. I don't think that with him switching races and SaSe being such a baller that he has a great chance, but TLO's wacky style might favor the Bo1 setting. Regardless, SaSe is a beast, and should be able to beat TLO. Ret >  theognisRet is one of the best foreigners, but he certainly has his weak points. theognis's best chance will certainly be cheesing or dispatching Ret early game, but after Ret starts rolling I don't see theognis being able to stop him. If it gets to the ace match (which is always a possibility with the Bo1 format) then I figure Zenio vs SaSe with Zenio winning it. I would assume that Liquid knows that QxG will use SaSe and rather then risking a PvP, Zenio (who just crushed NaNiwa at IEM) can beat SaSe in a ZvP. You were literally right about everything o.O How have you not won a liquibet season yet?
Except for the fact that Hero was the one who got lucky vs Agh. Agh splitting his immortals lost him the game.
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On January 24 2012 01:20 Letall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 01:15 mbr2321 wrote:On January 23 2012 03:45 The Final Boss wrote:Liquid 3-1 Zenio > ShuffleZvZ is a pretty anybody-can-win sort of match-up, but not when one of those players is Zenio. He has some of the best ZvZ in the world and I don't see Shuffle standing much of a chance. That being said, since it is ZvZ Bo1 anything could happen, but let's be honest, it probably won't. I think Tal'Darim Altar is so big of a map that it's harder for cheeses to work, and I don't see how Shuffle can stand much of a chance against a S-Class ZvZer like Zenio. LiquidHerO > AghOnce again, even if PvP is a match-up that produces more build order wins than other match-ups, it is also highly reliant on the micro of the player. Agh is going to need to get lucky to beat HerO. TLO < SaSeI think that from QxG's standpoint, it would have been best to get SaSe matched up against either Ret or one of the Koreans, because he's the one with the best shot, and then they might be able to win it 3-2 with an ace match. TLO is the weakest player that Liquid is sending out, but he's still pretty good. I don't think that with him switching races and SaSe being such a baller that he has a great chance, but TLO's wacky style might favor the Bo1 setting. Regardless, SaSe is a beast, and should be able to beat TLO. Ret > theognisRet is one of the best foreigners, but he certainly has his weak points. theognis's best chance will certainly be cheesing or dispatching Ret early game, but after Ret starts rolling I don't see theognis being able to stop him. If it gets to the ace match (which is always a possibility with the Bo1 format) then I figure Zenio vs SaSe with Zenio winning it. I would assume that Liquid knows that QxG will use SaSe and rather then risking a PvP, Zenio (who just crushed NaNiwa at IEM) can beat SaSe in a ZvP. You were literally right about everything o.O How have you not won a liquibet season yet? Except for the fact that Hero was the one who got lucky vs Agh. Agh splitting his immortals lost him the game.
Well lots of people predicted 3-1, that was indeed the safe bet based on what the lineups looked like. Quantic needed an upset to force an Ace Match.
Grats Liquid! <3
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Gretorp's cohost:
Learn to control your hands; you seem to be wringing them constantly or rubbing your thighs. You look nervous as FUCK, which is understandable, but the audience can tell. Also, you seem to be afraid to look into the camera. It's okay, it won't steal your soul.
If this is a new gig, congrats :D Use it as a learning platform and keep trying!
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On January 24 2012 00:11 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 20:07 Catatonic wrote:On January 23 2012 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 23 2012 16:50 ceaRshaf wrote:
Why no Naniwa or Destiny? Nobody knows why not naniwa, destiny is obvious why he wasn't put on. Whats this obvious reason then? He's much improved since his visit to Korea an is doing alot better now then ever before. So I think your inferring that Destiny is trash is false and you should go back and rethink it seeing as how you're if thats the case.  The only thing destiny could have done was maybe beat TLO while SaSe beats someone else. But Destiny still isn't a top foreigner, and Hero/Zenio/Ret are much better than he is.
Destiny is better than theognis. Let's be honest, clearly theognis did not feel comfortable at all playing against Ret which means he probably would have done the same against Zenio. If half the line-up of the other team is so imposing to a player that they do the most ridiculous all-in, then I think it's fair to say that Destiny could have done a better job. theognis decided to do a stupid build.
Proxy 2 rax against Ret makes sense: Ret is not going to cheese some random. Plus, Ret is not known for being good against early pressure/all-ins. If theognis had expanded (maybe double expoed or something) behind his "all-in" then he would have been in a way better position and could have potentially won the game. But instead, he throws down three more barracks and does a ridiculous all-in that dies the second a baneling comes out. It's one thing to play against a style that a player is good at (for example, GoOdy likes mech or InCa likes DTs), but to completely alter your style so that it is completely focused around your opponent means that you're afraid of playing an actual game with them. Doing a quasi-all-in such as proxy 2 rax against Ret would have been a good idea. Going 5 Rax shows that theognis doesn't feel comfortable at all--and therefore shouldn't--playing Ret or a good Zerg (unless theognis's "style" is to do ridiculous and stupid cheeses).
Against a team that is so Zerg heavy, if you're going to send out a player who you know is not of the same caliber as their players, Destiny would have been the far better choice. I wonder if they were afraid of Destiny having to play a cross-server ZvZ though, which could easily be decided by a baneling.
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On January 24 2012 01:20 Letall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 01:15 mbr2321 wrote:On January 23 2012 03:45 The Final Boss wrote:Liquid 3-1 Zenio > ShuffleZvZ is a pretty anybody-can-win sort of match-up, but not when one of those players is Zenio. He has some of the best ZvZ in the world and I don't see Shuffle standing much of a chance. That being said, since it is ZvZ Bo1 anything could happen, but let's be honest, it probably won't. I think Tal'Darim Altar is so big of a map that it's harder for cheeses to work, and I don't see how Shuffle can stand much of a chance against a S-Class ZvZer like Zenio. LiquidHerO > AghOnce again, even if PvP is a match-up that produces more build order wins than other match-ups, it is also highly reliant on the micro of the player. Agh is going to need to get lucky to beat HerO. TLO < SaSeI think that from QxG's standpoint, it would have been best to get SaSe matched up against either Ret or one of the Koreans, because he's the one with the best shot, and then they might be able to win it 3-2 with an ace match. TLO is the weakest player that Liquid is sending out, but he's still pretty good. I don't think that with him switching races and SaSe being such a baller that he has a great chance, but TLO's wacky style might favor the Bo1 setting. Regardless, SaSe is a beast, and should be able to beat TLO. Ret > theognisRet is one of the best foreigners, but he certainly has his weak points. theognis's best chance will certainly be cheesing or dispatching Ret early game, but after Ret starts rolling I don't see theognis being able to stop him. If it gets to the ace match (which is always a possibility with the Bo1 format) then I figure Zenio vs SaSe with Zenio winning it. I would assume that Liquid knows that QxG will use SaSe and rather then risking a PvP, Zenio (who just crushed NaNiwa at IEM) can beat SaSe in a ZvP. You were literally right about everything o.O How have you not won a liquibet season yet? Except for the fact that Hero was the one who got lucky vs Agh. Agh splitting his immortals lost him the game.
To be fair, I said that PvP comes down to the micro of the player. HerO microed better than Agh. Agh controlled really badly in the final engagement and while he did, HerO also controlled really well, keeping his Stalkers away from those Zealots as best he could. But really that was just the obvious prediction.
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Ugh, the commentary of TLO vs Sasa leaves a lot to be desired. They don't realize that the 4 gate zealot pressure isn't really meant to kill anything, its meant to force roaches. That pressure was a huge success, Sase was in a huge lead going into his push. It just feels like they don't have experience with Protoss.
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3-1 for TL, IMO. Interesting why NaNi isn't playing.
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On January 24 2012 03:34 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 00:11 DamageControL wrote:On January 23 2012 20:07 Catatonic wrote:On January 23 2012 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 23 2012 16:50 ceaRshaf wrote:
Why no Naniwa or Destiny? Nobody knows why not naniwa, destiny is obvious why he wasn't put on. Whats this obvious reason then? He's much improved since his visit to Korea an is doing alot better now then ever before. So I think your inferring that Destiny is trash is false and you should go back and rethink it seeing as how you're if thats the case. The only thing destiny could have done was maybe beat TLO while SaSe beats someone else. But Destiny still isn't a top foreigner, and Hero/Zenio/Ret are much better than he is. Destiny is better than theognis. Let's be honest, clearly theognis did not feel comfortable at all playing against Ret which means he probably would have done the same against Zenio. If half the line-up of the other team is so imposing to a player that they do the most ridiculous all-in, then I think it's fair to say that Destiny could have done a better job. theognis decided to do a stupid build. Proxy 2 rax against Ret makes sense: Ret is not going to cheese some random. Plus, Ret is not known for being good against early pressure/all-ins. If theognis had expanded (maybe double expoed or something) behind his "all-in" then he would have been in a way better position and could have potentially won the game. But instead, he throws down three more barracks and does a ridiculous all-in that dies the second a baneling comes out. It's one thing to play against a style that a player is good at (for example, GoOdy likes mech or InCa likes DTs), but to completely alter your style so that it is completely focused around your opponent means that you're afraid of playing an actual game with them. Doing a quasi-all-in such as proxy 2 rax against Ret would have been a good idea. Going 5 Rax shows that theognis doesn't feel comfortable at all--and therefore shouldn't--playing Ret or a good Zerg (unless theognis's "style" is to do ridiculous and stupid cheeses). Against a team that is so Zerg heavy, if you're going to send out a player who you know is not of the same caliber as their players, Destiny would have been the far better choice. I wonder if they were afraid of Destiny having to play a cross-server ZvZ though, which could easily be decided by a baneling.
Where does your confidence in Destiny come from? I'll agree ognis was uncomfortable, but I've yet to see evidence that Destiny is persuasively better. Also, keep in mind they didn't know theognis would be up against Ret; they sent him out based on the map.
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Really surprising results.
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On January 24 2012 03:44 Jacobs Ladder wrote:
Ugh, the commentary of TLO vs Sasa leaves a lot to be desired. They don't realize that the 4 gate zealot pressure isn't really meant to kill anything, its meant to force roaches. That pressure was a huge success, Sase was in a huge lead going into his push. It just feels like they don't have experience with Protoss.
Apparently they dont have deep knowledge in PvZ.
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No Naniwa? 
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On January 24 2012 03:46 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 03:34 The Final Boss wrote:On January 24 2012 00:11 DamageControL wrote:On January 23 2012 20:07 Catatonic wrote:On January 23 2012 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 23 2012 16:50 ceaRshaf wrote:
Why no Naniwa or Destiny? Nobody knows why not naniwa, destiny is obvious why he wasn't put on. Whats this obvious reason then? He's much improved since his visit to Korea an is doing alot better now then ever before. So I think your inferring that Destiny is trash is false and you should go back and rethink it seeing as how you're if thats the case. The only thing destiny could have done was maybe beat TLO while SaSe beats someone else. But Destiny still isn't a top foreigner, and Hero/Zenio/Ret are much better than he is. Destiny is better than theognis. Let's be honest, clearly theognis did not feel comfortable at all playing against Ret which means he probably would have done the same against Zenio. If half the line-up of the other team is so imposing to a player that they do the most ridiculous all-in, then I think it's fair to say that Destiny could have done a better job. theognis decided to do a stupid build. Proxy 2 rax against Ret makes sense: Ret is not going to cheese some random. Plus, Ret is not known for being good against early pressure/all-ins. If theognis had expanded (maybe double expoed or something) behind his "all-in" then he would have been in a way better position and could have potentially won the game. But instead, he throws down three more barracks and does a ridiculous all-in that dies the second a baneling comes out. It's one thing to play against a style that a player is good at (for example, GoOdy likes mech or InCa likes DTs), but to completely alter your style so that it is completely focused around your opponent means that you're afraid of playing an actual game with them. Doing a quasi-all-in such as proxy 2 rax against Ret would have been a good idea. Going 5 Rax shows that theognis doesn't feel comfortable at all--and therefore shouldn't--playing Ret or a good Zerg (unless theognis's "style" is to do ridiculous and stupid cheeses). Against a team that is so Zerg heavy, if you're going to send out a player who you know is not of the same caliber as their players, Destiny would have been the far better choice. I wonder if they were afraid of Destiny having to play a cross-server ZvZ though, which could easily be decided by a baneling. Where does your confidence in Destiny come from? I'll agree ognis was uncomfortable, but I've yet to see evidence that Destiny is persuasively better. Also, keep in mind they didn't know theognis would be up against Ret; they sent him out based on the map.
Recently he beat KiLLeR 2-0 and lost to viOLet 2-3. Both of those are pretty solid results that don't really reflect upon his career statistics of ZvZ. He lost to Ret 0-2 at HSC4, but I definitely think that Destiny is a more solid choice than Ret, plus he's been in Korea and has been improving a great deal.
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Good job by liquid !
It would be awsome if the playoff of NASTL were played on the live event.
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On January 24 2012 01:15 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 03:45 The Final Boss wrote:Liquid 3-1 Zenio > ShuffleZvZ is a pretty anybody-can-win sort of match-up, but not when one of those players is Zenio. He has some of the best ZvZ in the world and I don't see Shuffle standing much of a chance. That being said, since it is ZvZ Bo1 anything could happen, but let's be honest, it probably won't. I think Tal'Darim Altar is so big of a map that it's harder for cheeses to work, and I don't see how Shuffle can stand much of a chance against a S-Class ZvZer like Zenio. LiquidHerO > AghOnce again, even if PvP is a match-up that produces more build order wins than other match-ups, it is also highly reliant on the micro of the player. Agh is going to need to get lucky to beat HerO. TLO < SaSeI think that from QxG's standpoint, it would have been best to get SaSe matched up against either Ret or one of the Koreans, because he's the one with the best shot, and then they might be able to win it 3-2 with an ace match. TLO is the weakest player that Liquid is sending out, but he's still pretty good. I don't think that with him switching races and SaSe being such a baller that he has a great chance, but TLO's wacky style might favor the Bo1 setting. Regardless, SaSe is a beast, and should be able to beat TLO. Ret > theognisRet is one of the best foreigners, but he certainly has his weak points. theognis's best chance will certainly be cheesing or dispatching Ret early game, but after Ret starts rolling I don't see theognis being able to stop him. If it gets to the ace match (which is always a possibility with the Bo1 format) then I figure Zenio vs SaSe with Zenio winning it. I would assume that Liquid knows that QxG will use SaSe and rather then risking a PvP, Zenio (who just crushed NaNiwa at IEM) can beat SaSe in a ZvP. You were literally right about everything o.O How have you not won a liquibet season yet?
Seriously no offence, but anyone who didn't predict like this is just dumb, anyone with half a brain and that have followed the scene at least a few weeks would have predicted this outcome. It would be a HUGE upset if any of the games didn't go like this and then we would also have like 50k+ liquidbet winners every season according to your logics..
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On January 24 2012 04:18 The Final Boss wrote:
He lost to Ret 0-2 at HSC4, but I definitely think that Destiny is a more solid choice than Ret, plus he's been in Korea and has been improving a great deal.
I could not disagree more.
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Ret is a really scary opponent in standard games, and yeah, he rolled over Destiny just as easily as he did theognis. One of Quantic's protoss would have been a better match for him, they are good at rushing, micro and harassment, stuff Ret is known to die to.
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EPT
