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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 12 2012 05:06 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:00 edwahn wrote:On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade. They've been scouting each others' third constantly. Lucky knew that he was reasonably even in drone count with Idra (by looking at 3rd base saturation) and probably saw Idra's 3rd base suddenly getting saturated (when Idra made a 14x drone batch). That opened up a thin timing window and Lucky took it. It was masterful, the way I saw it. Except Lucky didn't see the 14 drone batch. Those could have been units. But they weren't. If they were units, you'd be calling Lucky stupid for attacking at a random time, but since they were drones, it's a masterful attack. I'm done here, people just want reasons to hate on the players they hate and don't look objectively at games at all. Then again, what do I expect from LR threads on TL these days?
Its quite common in zvz for one player to run up to the base of his opponent to scare him in to using larva for units instead of drones, while also getting some information. Going mass roach you pretty much need to do something when you feel comfortable with your army size. If your opponent is going for hydra or infestor tech with their roaches then you are in trouble if you miss your window. In my opinion it was wise of Lucky to poke (im a fast learner  ) at Idra before his upgrades were done to make sure he didnt miss his window. I call that skill.
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Seeing Nestea finally beat MVP is a quite big deal. Seeing Idra getting last in his group shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.
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Games today were really bad except the MVP vs Lucky rematch (game 1 and 3) but glad NesTea shut the mouth of many people, MVP advances also, and people realizes how good Lucky is.
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On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players.
In your first post you said, "if you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player." Then you say how some of his wins are old (you said "never" right?), some of the good players aren't Code S material in your bias opinion (Clide was absolutely code S calliber especially at the time Idra beat him, he was consistently in code S for a very long time, and I've seen a multitude of Europeans arguing that kas and thorzain are on that level), and then you say his undeniably code S wins have to be champions for them to count as good players (what? I guess LoveTT and Goswser are the best foreigners, behind Naniwa of course, for beating Fruitdealer and Polt).
Here's the definition of objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
Oh and you're just flat out wrong about him not beating Puma, he did it twice recently in pretty big tournaments. 3-0 at IEM.
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On January 12 2012 05:06 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:00 edwahn wrote:On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade. They've been scouting each others' third constantly. Lucky knew that he was reasonably even in drone count with Idra (by looking at 3rd base saturation) and probably saw Idra's 3rd base suddenly getting saturated (when Idra made a 14x drone batch). That opened up a thin timing window and Lucky took it. It was masterful, the way I saw it. Except Lucky didn't see the 14 drone batch. Those could have been units. But they weren't. If they were units, you'd be calling Lucky stupid for attacking at a random time, but since they were drones, it's a masterful attack. I'm done here, people just want reasons to hate on the players they hate and don't look objectively at games at all. Then again, what do I expect from LR threads on TL these days?
The 14 drones wasn't the trigger but calling it a random time is ridiculous. It was a pretty common attack timing to punish/pressure the opponents third. If he saw Idra's army being bigger than it was when he ran up the ramp to defend the expansion he could have just turned around and run back. You don't think him stopping around 60 drones was on purpose? He knew perfectly well if Idra droned up too much or teched to fast that push would be pretty successful and with the exception of some massive flack or infestors, it wasn't much risk. It's not like Idra would be able to run after him with his hydra switch. Upgrades aren't everything when you think of attack timings.
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On January 11 2012 22:15 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:14 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there ..... Snipe is instant cast..... Terran queues it up and the broods instantly die, you dont get a chance to HEAL..... when someone has 30+ ghosts, it's not hard to blanket EMP them.... you'e over exaggerating it, they don't instantly die, and snipe also have a load time. please watch any snipe vs brood battle again, certainly there is enough time for pros to react If terran can afford 30 ghosts, who says you can't match him with 30 queens? Not including how hard it is to emp a queen 17 yards away anyway
You can't que up snipes without it bugging out, he was manually casting those snipes as far as I know.
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On January 12 2012 05:14 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. I don't even know why are you saying he 'beat' Boxer or Kas - he barely pulled through vs Boxer in an extended series last time they met, and lost like 5 series to him prior to that. Kas has completely roflstomped Idra in their games, the man is something like 12-2 in matches vs Idra, lol. And when did Idra beat NaDa, in like, GSL open season 2?
Idra is 6-9 against Kas and at least two of those were him winning the series, so you're actually just wrong.
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On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain, Genius. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Most of them he's beaten multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, Kas, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea (17-14). And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12.
You mean the game where Kas crushed or the other time when Kas stomped him?
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hah, MVP pulling out the blizzcon ring was so baller. First ceremony I've ever seen him do.
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On January 12 2012 05:38 KinQuh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain, Genius. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Most of them he's beaten multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, Kas, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea (17-14). And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. You mean the game where Kas crushed or the other time when Kas stomped him?
I mean the times you read the post right above yours.
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On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever.
Random is part of skill - you'd understand if you read Rekrul's slaying of IdrA who unfortunatly has not changed.
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On January 12 2012 05:26 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:06 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 05:00 edwahn wrote:On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:
[quote]
Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade. They've been scouting each others' third constantly. Lucky knew that he was reasonably even in drone count with Idra (by looking at 3rd base saturation) and probably saw Idra's 3rd base suddenly getting saturated (when Idra made a 14x drone batch). That opened up a thin timing window and Lucky took it. It was masterful, the way I saw it. Except Lucky didn't see the 14 drone batch. Those could have been units. But they weren't. If they were units, you'd be calling Lucky stupid for attacking at a random time, but since they were drones, it's a masterful attack. I'm done here, people just want reasons to hate on the players they hate and don't look objectively at games at all. Then again, what do I expect from LR threads on TL these days? The 14 drones wasn't the trigger but calling it a random time is ridiculous. It was a pretty common attack timing to punish/pressure the opponents third. If he saw Idra's army being bigger than it was when he ran up the ramp to defend the expansion he could have just turned around and run back. You don't think him stopping around 60 drones was on purpose? He knew perfectly well if Idra droned up too much or teched to fast that push would be pretty successful and with the exception of some massive flack or infestors, it wasn't much risk. It's not like Idra would be able to run after him with his hydra switch. Upgrades aren't everything when you think of attack timings.
And how would he stop Idra's resulting counter attack with Hydra on pure roach tech if Idra's army had popped in time? Even by running away, he wouldn't be able to stop the counter attack because he had no tech developed yet. You call that low risk? The timing was great, the information behind it is non existant, to my eyes, except on maybe him knowing Idra likes to drone. But that still is not enough information at all.
There are no "pretty common attack timings" in ZvZ, please don't make things up for the sake of arguing.
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On January 12 2012 05:24 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. In your first post you said, "if you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player." Then you say how some of his wins are old (you said " never" right?), some of the good players aren't Code S material in your bias opinion (Clide was absolutely code S calliber especially at the time Idra beat him, he was consistently in code S for a very long time, and I've seen a multitude of Europeans arguing that kas and thorzain are on that level), and then you say his undeniably code S wins have to be champions for them to count as good players (what? I guess LoveTT and Goswser are the best foreigners, behind Naniwa of course, for beating Fruitdealer and Polt). Here's the definition of objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. Oh and you're just flat out wrong about him not beating Puma, he did it twice recently in pretty big tournaments. 3-0 at IEM. Thats just so typical, lets analyze each and every word in our postings!
Its obvious, what I am trying to say, at least it should be. He has no results, he does not beat good players constantly, only sometimes, and then he loses to some random scrub, like in the last (or was it the one before that?) MLG. He has never beaten a champion.
Only biased ppl can put Idra before Naniwa or Huk. How many titles does Idra have? 1 MLG and 1 IEM right? ANd that MLG was like more than 1 year ago. And how about Naniwa? 1 MLG, one 2nd where he demolished MVP and Nestea, and fell to Leenock. 2nd @ HSC3, where he defeated MC, the best protoss at the time. Huk came out on top, and also defeated MC. He also won 1 MLG and 1 Dreamhack. All in all, both Naniwa and Huk are better foreign players than Idra.
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On January 12 2012 05:39 Tachion wrote:
hah, MVP pulling out the blizzcon ring was so baller. First ceremony I've ever seen him do.
Pfffft. Mvp is an amateur, that was already done by the ceremony king Genius.
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On January 12 2012 04:50 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S. Talent doesn't mean anything without the hard work input to make it work. Sen/Idra/Stephano do not have access to players of the calibre that are in the GSL and therefor do not realize (they know it but their reactions/brain doesn't process it yet...dunno how to explain but it's like lifting a 5 pound weight over and over and knowing that a 10 pound will be heavier and preparing but then it's a little heavier than you thought) that in order to compete with koreans they need to train with them. A player might be talented, but "potential" results are not as good as actual results.
I agree.
It's not like there aren't foreigners with the potential to compete with code S. When you look at the ways that IdrA, Stephano or Naniwa are losing, it has less to do with talent, competence or skill level, and more to do with a lack of familiarity with specific opponents and their timings. These issues are a lot easier to fix than simply not having a solid understanding of how the game works,having mediocre hand-eye coordination or apm, etc.
IdrA's been back in Korea for a month. All things considered, I though he performed pretty well on his first time back in code S.
People should think about how long it took a player like Leenock to become dominant.
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On January 12 2012 05:39 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. Random is part of skill - you'd understand if you read Rekrul's slaying of IdrA who unfortunatly has not changed.
I read Rekrul's slaying of Idra.
Idra has changed, I don't know what you're talking about.
What Idra was talking about then and what happened in this game are two different things entirely. There was a "standard" and "smart" style to play on that map in those positions in BW, and his opponent didn't play them, and Idra was mad. That is his fault completely. But there is no set style in ZvZ, no set timings, nothing, a lot of pros say it's about feel, and the best players do have that sixth sense that allows them to know things, but if you look at replays carefully, they always still base it off of some sort of information. There was almost no information behind that attack, and in ZvZ in general there is relatively no information the entire time until Lair tech and you can afford multiple overseers.
Do you guys even play Zerg? Because if you did you'd understand what I'm trying to say here...
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On January 12 2012 05:41 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:24 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. In your first post you said, "if you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player." Then you say how some of his wins are old (you said " never" right?), some of the good players aren't Code S material in your bias opinion (Clide was absolutely code S calliber especially at the time Idra beat him, he was consistently in code S for a very long time, and I've seen a multitude of Europeans arguing that kas and thorzain are on that level), and then you say his undeniably code S wins have to be champions for them to count as good players (what? I guess LoveTT and Goswser are the best foreigners, behind Naniwa of course, for beating Fruitdealer and Polt). Here's the definition of objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. Oh and you're just flat out wrong about him not beating Puma, he did it twice recently in pretty big tournaments. 3-0 at IEM. Thats just so typical, lets analyze each and every word in our postings! Its obvious, what I am trying to say, at least it should be. He has no results, he does not beat good players constantly, only sometimes, and then he loses to some random scrub, like in the last (or was it the one before that?) MLG. He has never beaten a champion. Only biased ppl can put Idra before Naniwa or Huk. How many titles does Idra have? 1 MLG and 1 IEM right? ANd that MLG was like more than 1 year ago. And how about Naniwa? 1 MLG, one 2nd where he demolished MVP and Nestea, and fell to Leenock. 2nd @ HSC3, where he defeated MC, the best protoss at the time. Huk came out on top, and also defeated MC. He also won 1 MLG and 1 Dreamhack. All in all, both Naniwa and Huk are better foreign players than Idra.
As for titles, yea those are probably his biggest wins. He won the first IPL and http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ASUS_ROG_Stars_Invite also. But if you don't want to count those at major titles that's fine I suppose, an MLG and an IEM is more than most foreigners have. You're listing Naniwa's second place finishes when we're talking about titles...anyone's achievement list could be longer if you talk about all the times they did well but didn't win.
Nowhere did I say that Idra was the best foreigner. I was responding to you saying he's never beaten a good player, which he has. I'm not sure why you even bring up this point.
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On January 12 2012 05:29 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:14 Sethronu wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. I don't even know why are you saying he 'beat' Boxer or Kas - he barely pulled through vs Boxer in an extended series last time they met, and lost like 5 series to him prior to that. Kas has completely roflstomped Idra in their games, the man is something like 12-2 in matches vs Idra, lol. And when did Idra beat NaDa, in like, GSL open season 2? Idra is 6-9 against Kas and at least two of those were him winning the series, so you're actually just wrong.
Last 12 games Idra played vs Kas, he is 4-8, winning 1 series out of 5. I suppose that counts for 'defeating', but still...
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On January 12 2012 05:48 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:29 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 05:14 Sethronu wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. I don't even know why are you saying he 'beat' Boxer or Kas - he barely pulled through vs Boxer in an extended series last time they met, and lost like 5 series to him prior to that. Kas has completely roflstomped Idra in their games, the man is something like 12-2 in matches vs Idra, lol. And when did Idra beat NaDa, in like, GSL open season 2? Idra is 6-9 against Kas and at least two of those were him winning the series, so you're actually just wrong. Last 12 games Idra played vs Kas, he is 4-8, winning 1 series out of 5. I suppose that counts for 'defeating', but still...
TLPD -> Foreigner database -> Idra -> under the versus tab you click Kas -> Update -> 6-9 and two series wins and three series losses.
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Glad to Idra lost. Go Nestea!
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EPT
