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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry
Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S.
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On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story.
What???
The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade.
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On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. "Hmm not sure if you are being serious but i will just assume you are. You are saying macro play requires more skill than timing pushes or "gimicky" play. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion but on this level you really need to master all of those styles to prevent everyone from knowing exactly whats coming. Btw, stephano is one of the biggest macro players in the game and his macro is certainly on the same lever as idras, if not above. Hearing a lot of whine about timing attacks and other stuff, claiming its luck and anything but macro is skill. I really dont get it. Macro is ONE part of the game, and if thats the only part you are good at then you are in trouble." It's just simple common sense man. Premise 1: The better player has a higher probability of making a correct decision than a worse player. Premise 2: The longer a game goes on, the more decisions that are made. Therfore, Macro games require more correct decisions than short games based on timing pushes or cheese. Now do we equate making correct decisions to skill?
So if the game is short, and the macro player loses he obviously must have made bad decisions somewhere, yes? Timing larva injects isnt that hard you know, while microing and crisis management is.
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On January 12 2012 03:52 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. Must be boring for you to watch sc2. Everything must seem random, and things "just happen".
....?
Are you just trying your hardest to get an angry response out of me, or is that really your response to what I said?
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Actually, timings and 'gimmicky' play is what makes Koreans so much better than the rest of the world, and it's the hardest part of Starcraft (both SC2 and SC:BW) to master. Plenty of foreigners have good enough mechanics to do reasonably well in macro games, and plenty of Koreans don't have the tip top mechanics and still win an incredible amount of games. Why? Because they don't whine about 'blind luck' and 'coinflips' when the opponent's units arrive '10 seconds too early' or whatever stupid shit - as they study every map, every matchup, and every build order to the point where they know EXACTLY when certain pushes and timings can arrive, and prepare accordingly.
Do you really think NesTea wins all his ZvZ's because he has the better 'decision making', or is more lucky than everyone else in the world combined? Come on. He simply understands the timings better than most other Zergs do, and that allows him to choose the superior builds even with very limited information available. No foreigner has this level of understanding because they focus on practicing their macro and mechanics too much.
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On January 12 2012 04:28 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:52 Fjodorov wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. Must be boring for you to watch sc2. Everything must seem random, and things "just happen". ....? Are you just trying your hardest to get an angry response out of me, or is that really your response to what I said?
Going out to poak at your opponent at a certain time/supply isnt random when you are going mass roach. Deciding to stay and go for the kill when seen your opponents army isnt random. Poaking with your army before upgrades are done has nothing do with anything. Are you inside Luckys head? Do you know his tought process or plan? Do you know how much he has studied Idras zvz macro games? Do you get to define what part of sc2 is skill? Have your heard of game sense? You know, gut feeling based on experience and practise. You are being damn disrespectful to Lucky, and its annoying, thats all.
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On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade.
Cause you're Lucky and understand what was going through his head right? He scouted, moved out as soon as his speed finished, and won the game. He made the right decision, plain and simple.
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He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk.
lol, did you watch G1 of Nestea v Idra? Was that a macro build? Idra just isn't good early game and it makes him 1 dimensional and easy to predict.
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On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways.
OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat?
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On January 12 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S.
Talent doesn't mean anything without the hard work input to make it work.
Sen/Idra/Stephano do not have access to players of the calibre that are in the GSL and therefor do not realize (they know it but their reactions/brain doesn't process it yet...dunno how to explain but it's like lifting a 5 pound weight over and over and knowing that a 10 pound will be heavier and preparing but then it's a little heavier than you thought) that in order to compete with koreans they need to train with them.
A player might be talented, but "potential" results are not as good as actual results.
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Gah, Idra's result was expected. Oh well, better luck next time boyo.
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On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat?
Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain, Genius.
These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Most of them he's beaten multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, Kas, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small.
Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea (17-14). And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12.
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On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade.
They've been scouting each others' third constantly. Lucky knew that he was reasonably even in drone count with Idra (by looking at 3rd base saturation) and probably saw Idra's 3rd base suddenly getting saturated (when Idra made a 14x drone batch). That opened up a thin timing window and Lucky took it. It was masterful, the way I saw it.
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On January 12 2012 04:34 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:28 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 03:52 Fjodorov wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. Must be boring for you to watch sc2. Everything must seem random, and things "just happen". ....? Are you just trying your hardest to get an angry response out of me, or is that really your response to what I said? Going out to poak at your opponent at a certain time/supply isnt random when you are going mass roach. Deciding to stay and go for the kill when seen your opponents army isnt random. Poaking with your army before upgrades are done has nothing do with anything. Are you inside Luckys head? Do you know his tought process or plan? Do you know how much he has studied Idras zvz macro games? Do you get to define what part of sc2 is skill? Have your heard of game sense? You know, gut feeling based on experience and practise. You are being damn disrespectful to Lucky, and its annoying, thats all.
First of all, it's poke*.
Second of all, the problem with your "poke" is that the races that do pokes (primarily Terran and Protoss) do so due to certain timings, factors, and information. Yes, SC2 isn't only about that, there's also feel/gut/whatever but when analyzing games, we can't factor in what we think a player FELT at the time based off of little to no information. You don't really poke as Zerg, when was the last time you saw Nestea decide to do a poke? The reason being how weak Zerg units are. What if Lucky does that attack when Idra's hydras have spawned? You'd be sitting here calling Lucky a Zerg that got exposed for his all in tendencies and how great Idra is for timing his hydras to spawn right when Lucky decided to attack (yeah, think about that one, because the probability of Idra timing his hydras to anticipate Lucky doing a nearly blind poke is about the same probability that Lucky's blind poke had of succeeding.
Is there such a problem with admitting a player got (excuse the pun here) lucky?
Studied Idra's zvz macro games? Off of what replays? I don't expect SC2 to be played all with 50 minute macro games, I know all ins and timing attacks are a useful and critical aspect of game play. But you cannot show me a game where a player did an attack with mostly incomplete information and expect me to say "Oh wow, that was really skillful". Lucky is a good player. Lucky is probably better than Idra. Lucky is a Code S Zerg. Have I praised him enough for you? But in that game, that situation, there is nothing to be taken out of that. You can't call Idra bad or Lucky good for that attack.
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Lol, I was scared for MVP a lil bit but then he got the ghosts out. And I knew there's a clear win for him lol. He's so good with ghost and his choice to went mech in game 1 vs Lucky made me wonder. MVP still the best haha. Lost to Nestea last game cuz he didn't wall off the big ramp tho.
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On January 12 2012 05:00 edwahn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:26 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 03:40 sitromit wrote:On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever. There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story. What??? The overseer scout did not reveal to him NEARLY enough information to indicate that attacking right then would be the best idea, especially without his upgrade. They've been scouting each others' third constantly. Lucky knew that he was reasonably even in drone count with Idra (by looking at 3rd base saturation) and probably saw Idra's 3rd base suddenly getting saturated (when Idra made a 14x drone batch). That opened up a thin timing window and Lucky took it. It was masterful, the way I saw it.
Except Lucky didn't see the 14 drone batch. Those could have been units. But they weren't. If they were units, you'd be calling Lucky stupid for attacking at a random time, but since they were drones, it's a masterful attack.
I'm done here, people just want reasons to hate on the players they hate and don't look objectively at games at all. Then again, what do I expect from LR threads on TL these days?
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On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions.
It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players.
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Guys, watch scbw proleague. Flash is by far the best bwplayer out there, but his play relies 50 percent on weird and unexpected timings.
The hard part about being a timing based player is, that your attacks get figured out, the macro player can easily just adjust his basic bo. Doing little twists while reacting on scouting info is soooo much harder than just playing it safe (like idra tries to)
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On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players.
I don't even know why are you saying he 'beat' Boxer or Kas - he barely pulled through vs Boxer in an extended series last time they met, and lost like 5 series to him prior to that. Kas has completely roflstomped Idra in their games, the man is something like 12-2 in matches vs Idra, lol. And when did Idra beat NaDa, in like, GSL open season 2?
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On January 12 2012 05:14 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:58 hitpoint wrote:On January 12 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. OK then, name a few? Who are these awesome player Idra beat? Puma, Huk, Kas, Whitera, Nada, Clide, Select, Major, Bomber, Hongun, Boxer, Thorzain, Revival, Rain. These are all good players that Idra's beaten off the top of my head. Some of them multiple times, like Puma, Thorzain, and Select. You're using MVP and Nestea as examples of "good players" that Idra has never beaten, but those are arguably the best and the second best players in the world, the list of people who have beaten them is pretty small. Even with today's losses he still has a winning ratio in Korea. And Naniwa, the person you're comparing him to, is 1-12. He never beat Puma. And his win vs Huk was like 9 to 12 months ago. Kas, Whitera, Select, Major, Thorzain, Rain, Clide are not Code S material, therefor only decent, not good (to use Idra's scale, because anyone who is not as good as him is "flat out bad"). That leaves only Bomber, Boxer, Hongun and Nada. And none of them are champions. It might seem, that I'm too harsh on Idra, but if ppl hype him as the best foreigner, then he better have the results, and he does not have them. Fact is, both Naniwa and Huk have more tournament wins under the belt, and have defeated better players. I don't even know why are you saying he 'beat' Boxer or Kas - he barely pulled through vs Boxer in an extended series last time they met, and lost like 5 series to him prior to that. Kas has completely roflstomped Idra in their games, the man is something like 12-2 in matches vs Idra, lol. And when did Idra beat NaDa, in like, GSL open season 2?
I was just quoting the guy - he listed those players - w/o checking if all of that was true or not.
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EPT
