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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 12 2012 03:19 SKYFISH_ wrote:
awwww,1-4'd in a very Zerg heavy group?
Karma turns out to be such a bitch
I can't wait to see just how many games will Idra manage to get off ''Code S pros'' in Code A before he drops out to Code B
Karma? What did he do?
Idra will drop to code B; he cannot beat protoss.
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How long does it usually take for the korean vods to be uploaded?
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I wasn't able to watch it from the beginning but I watched the final set between Lucky and MVP.. After MVP lost game 1 he went into god mode.. Game 3 was amazing and really proved how good his multitasking skills are... You were able to say that he had the game under control even when the zerg was maxxed on broodlord-infestor.. Just nuking, taking out bases and trading armies with his top-notch micro..And of course great army control, both defensive and offensive. Nuking, splitting ghosts, EMPing, stimming, sieging, dropping... All at once while macroing. Just amazing !!!
Lucky played great too.. But against MVP great isn't enough.
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Please don't put that "So Beatiful" or "EPIC!" in the vote options. It's confusing when a game is 50% 'oh my god" and 50% no. I can tell if it's epic if it's 90% yes.
;/
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MVP and Nestea really are a pleasure to watch.
Idra has said no one can copy Nestea's style because it's all about his incredible decision making, but I find that's exactly what i CAN try to copy. I'll never have MKP or MMA style micro and multi tasking, and I'll never have the whole package like MVP, but I can watch ton of different situations that Nestea gets put in to, and see exactly what kind of decisions he makes, and try to emulate that. If you watch his replays he doesn't have a billion APM (he sits around 80 early game, up to 120 by late game), he just keeps cool and decides what is the best course of action given what he knows.
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On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever.
There was nothing random about it. Lucky scouted with an Overseer right before moving out, and moved out as soon as his Roach speed finished. Just because he also had upgrades going doesn't mean he had to wait for them, at the cost of missing an opportunity he saw. Clearly, he made the right choice, end of story.
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Never understood the ghost complaints.
What is scarier - 10 infestors or 10 ghosts?
The answer is 10 infestors, because you expect to get a return out of them greater than 20 food. 10 infestors will plaster any number of marines in an army comp , so they are worth more than the food they take.
The difference is that ghosts only trade evenly on a food basis. You need multiple ghosts / tech unit. They are slightly more efficient than the unit they snipe, but not by much. The burden remains on the rest of the T army to be efficient, and that heavily depends on how much damage fungals do.
Lastly ghosts are as immobile as the BL they counter. A heavy ghost army can be outpositioned, and crushed on open ground. Running your BL right into where the ghosts are set up is playing to the ghost's strengths.
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On January 12 2012 03:41 architecture wrote:
Never understood the ghost complaints.
What is scarier - 10 infestors or 10 ghosts?
The answer is 10 infestors, because you expect to get a return out of them greater than 20 food. 10 infestors will plaster any number of marines in an army comp , so they are worth more than the food they take.
The difference is that ghosts only trade evenly on a food basis. You need multiple ghosts / tech unit. They are slightly more efficient than the unit they snipe, but not by much. The burden remains on the rest of the T army to be efficient, and that heavily depends on how much damage fungals do.
Lastly ghosts are as immobile as the BL they counter. A heavy ghost army can be outpositioned, and crushed on open ground. Running your BL right into where the ghosts are set up is playing to the ghost's strengths.
1 emp = useless 10 infestors.
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On January 12 2012 03:42 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:41 architecture wrote:
Never understood the ghost complaints.
What is scarier - 10 infestors or 10 ghosts?
The answer is 10 infestors, because you expect to get a return out of them greater than 20 food. 10 infestors will plaster any number of marines in an army comp , so they are worth more than the food they take.
The difference is that ghosts only trade evenly on a food basis. You need multiple ghosts / tech unit. They are slightly more efficient than the unit they snipe, but not by much. The burden remains on the rest of the T army to be efficient, and that heavily depends on how much damage fungals do.
Lastly ghosts are as immobile as the BL they counter. A heavy ghost army can be outpositioned, and crushed on open ground. Running your BL right into where the ghosts are set up is playing to the ghost's strengths. 1 emp = useless 10 infestors.
Except emp radius is tiny tiny and infestors are biiiig. So you need like 8 EMPs for 10 infestors!
(I don't really agree with what that guy said but im just saying)
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No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom?
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1 emp = 10 Infestors still have enough energy to drop the fungals.
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On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD
WHAT!?? You should watch the game more carefully. Lucky did see Idra didn't have as many roaches as he did and realized idra was techking for smt (hydra) so attacked. Definetly planned and well done!
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On January 12 2012 03:04 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear Okay, honestly, I don't usually involve myself in Idra talks, but what do you expect him to say? There was no information for Lucky to know attacking right then and there would be a good idea, he just did it. Upgrades are an important facet of the game, as I'm sure you know, and battles change so much regarding upgrades. When you do a +1 roach timing, you NEED to have that +1 finish. But because of what Idra was going, Lucky didn't need the +1 because he just decided to go a few seconds before Idra's hydras. There's no skill involved there at all, it just so happened. Whether Lucky is better than Idra is a different argument that I don't feel like getting into at all, but to say people are making excuses when we're simply pointing out a random instance that had no skill involved whatsoever.
Must be boring for you to watch sc2. Everything must seem random, and things "just happen".
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On January 12 2012 02:43 roflSloth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:57 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:41 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 01:04 Aocowns wrote:On January 12 2012 01:03 trinxified wrote:
I'm actually very surprised Idra won a single game... I was expecting nothing. Then you're kind of under estimating him I think... Idra is a stronger Zerg than Lucky How did he lose then? Maybe because Lucky luckily blindcountered Idras attack in G2 with a roach +1 timing, which doesn't really give an accurate depiction of eithers skill what so ever. In the 3rd game, Lucky hit a lucky timing 10 secs before Idra's hydras, because he did a weird timing. Ever other player would have done the intelligent thing, and wait for the upgrades to hit, and not attack 30 seconds before they finish -.- I don't think Lucky had any information on Idra that could've triggered that kind of response. I think he just got lucky for once XD lol. "he lost because his opponent did something STUPID that any GOOD player wouldn't have done", how Idra-esque. This gave me flashbacks to Idra's excuses as to why he lost that showmatch vs F91 Edit: lol, found the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342Rekrul really went on a tear
ROFL, classic Rek.
Things haven't changed since then. It would be funny to see idra play MMA or MVP and see the fans ranting on how they are bad and just blindcountering and hitting lucky timings, always the same excuses.
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It's a little funny to see all the IdrA hater's come out of the woodwork.
If you watched the games, it's pretty obvious that IdrA is capable of competing at a Code A/lower Code S level, and his style is much better suited to the GSL than most foreigners, such as Sen's.
IdrA rarely loses by making flat-out dumb decisions or taking unnecessary risks (aside from the occasional bad GG timing). He loses by missing a narrow timing window or some simple, correctable misjudgement. If Antigua Shipyard was a slightly bigger map, or if Lucky waited 10 seconds to push out his roaches, he would have won.
Not saying that he can compete with the likes of MVP or Nestea, but for anyone to imply that IdrA 'failed' or that this proves he's overrated is kind of ridiculous. He's rated right around where he should be -- really, really good and solid but not perfect enough to win a tournament as volatile as Code S.
Leenock got knocked out, for pete's sake. That's nuts.
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On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom?
No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from?
Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further.
When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect.
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On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom?
Hmm not sure if you are being serious but i will just assume you are. You are saying macro play requires more skill than timing pushes or "gimicky" play. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion but on this level you really need to master all of those styles to prevent everyone from knowing exactly whats coming. Btw, stephano is one of the biggest macro players in the game and his macro is certainly on the same lever as idras, if not above. Hearing a lot of whine about timing attacks and other stuff, claiming its luck and anything but macro is skill. I really dont get it. Macro is ONE part of the game, and if thats the only part you are good at then you are in trouble.
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On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect.
That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways.
"Hmm not sure if you are being serious but i will just assume you are. You are saying macro play requires more skill than timing pushes or "gimicky" play. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion but on this level you really need to master all of those styles to prevent everyone from knowing exactly whats coming. Btw, stephano is one of the biggest macro players in the game and his macro is certainly on the same lever as idras, if not above. Hearing a lot of whine about timing attacks and other stuff, claiming its luck and anything but macro is skill. I really dont get it. Macro is ONE part of the game, and if thats the only part you are good at then you are in trouble."
It's just simple common sense man.
Premise 1: The better player has a higher probability of making a correct decision than a worse player.
Premise 2: The longer a game goes on, the more decisions that are made.
Therfore, Macro games require more correct decisions than short games based on timing pushes or cheese.
Now do we equate making correct decisions to skill?
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On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom?
Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry
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On January 12 2012 04:13 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:00 PureBalls wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? No, simply no. Where does this nonsense with "macro game won = outplayed/deserved the win" come from? Naniwa is far, far better than Idra. When was the last time Idra defeated MVP and Nestea (two best players of their respective races)? Never, right? No need to discuss this any further. When you look at it objectively, Idra has never defeated a really good player. All the hype comes from him being an NA player, and as we all know, there are not many decent NA players. So its the "one hope" and "sad zergling" effect. That is the most incorrect statement I have ever read. I guess NA ignorance to EU players goes both ways. "Hmm not sure if you are being serious but i will just assume you are. You are saying macro play requires more skill than timing pushes or "gimicky" play. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion but on this level you really need to master all of those styles to prevent everyone from knowing exactly whats coming. Btw, stephano is one of the biggest macro players in the game and his macro is certainly on the same lever as idras, if not above. Hearing a lot of whine about timing attacks and other stuff, claiming its luck and anything but macro is skill. I really dont get it. Macro is ONE part of the game, and if thats the only part you are good at then you are in trouble." It's just simple common sense man. Premise 1: The better player has a higher probability of making a correct decision than a worse player. Premise 2: The longer a game goes on, the more decisions that are made. Therfore, Macro games require more correct decisions than short games based on timing pushes or cheese. Now do we equate making correct decisions to skill?
Barely losing to a thin timing is usually the ONLY way guys like Ret or IdrA lose. "Uh-oh, they made a round of drones when they should have made units. GG!"
In terms of mechanical skill, general decision-making, and understanding of the game, I think Ret and IdrA are capable at competing at least at a Code A level. Learning how to react to thin timings really boils down to experiencing them and learning how to adjust to them.
It's not like they'll NEVER be able to compete at a Code S level.
Sen's play was much more disconcerting. It demonstrated some massive lapses in judgement and less-than good understanding of how the game works.
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EPT
