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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 12 2012 06:45 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. Huk is the only one recently  Jinro and Idra both proved themselves earlier on in GSL 
Ehhhhh the argument could be made (very easily) that Code S now (and over the past several months) is much more competitive than it was a year ago when IdrA and Jinro made deep runs. The LegalMinds, Ensnares, and Kyrix's have been weeded out and a really strong group of players remains.
I don't see a foreigner who hasn't been living in Korea for a while (months) going far in the GSL at all. GOM should announce the foreigner seeds waaaaaay in advance so that players who are truly serious about succeeding in Korea can go early to prepare for the GSL rather than have to play for their lives only shortly after arriving in the country and immersing themselves in the training model.
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On January 12 2012 06:49 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. *cough* Jinro *cough* Twice
yeah twice during the times of KYRIX RAIN ANYPRO HYPERDUB THEWIND LEGALMIND LIVEFOREVER ENSNARE
HuK and idra have fought a LOT harder oppenents than Jinro ever did. Its not fair to compare the two.
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On January 12 2012 06:51 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:45 mrtomjones wrote:On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. Huk is the only one recently Jinro and Idra both proved themselves earlier on in GSL Ehhhhh the argument could be made (very easily) that Code S now (and over the past several months) is much more competitive than it was a year ago when IdrA and Jinro made deep runs. The LegalMinds, Ensnares, and Kyrix's have been weeded out and a really strong group of players remains. I don't see a foreigner who hasn't been living in Korea for a while (months) going far in the GSL at all. GOM should announce the foreigner seeds waaaaaay in advance so that players who are truly serious about succeeding in Korea can go early to prepare for the GSL rather than have to play for their lives only shortly after arriving in the country and immersing themselves in the training model.
That kind of defeats the purpose of the foreigner / sponsor seed. If a player plays on the Korean server for three months and practices in a Korean team house, nobody in the world argues that play can't win games in the GSL. The argument has always been that the Korean training model will produce the best players and the counter argument was that anybody can win in SC2.
Nobody has ever argued, at least not to my knowledge, that Koreans are genetically superior and western players are incapable of playing video games at a high level. If a player goes to Korea and plays in a Korean team house for three months and plays exclusively on the Korean server, he might as well just qualify for the GSL through Code A qualifiers.
The point of the seed is to see how top International players who win tournaments in the west on a regular basis fare against top Korean competition in Korea.
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On January 12 2012 06:49 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. *cough* Jinro *cough* Twice
like polt said, jinro got lucky.
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Sigh. IdrA gotta improve that ZvZ man... I really wanted to see how close he could get to MVP though..
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On January 12 2012 06:59 SpecFire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:49 Hassybaby wrote:On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. *cough* Jinro *cough* Twice yeah twice during the times of KYRIX RAIN ANYPRO HYPERDUB THEWIND LEGALMIND LIVEFOREVER ENSNARE HuK and idra have fought a LOT harder oppenents than Jinro ever did. Its not fair to compare the two.
Idra played same people back then, and well didn't make two ro4 in a row.
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Has a foreigner even made it through the qualifications for Code A? Huk was given a free spot initially.
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On January 12 2012 07:30 xrapture wrote:
Has a foreigner even made it through the qualifications for Code A? Huk was given a free spot initially.
Nope.
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Nope no foreigner has ever made it through the Code A qualifiers.
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On January 12 2012 06:35 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:21 StarStruck wrote:On January 12 2012 05:59 Defacer wrote:
Most IdrA haters either don't understand the game or are incapable of analyzing his games objectively.
What? ._. Really now? Hey, there's critics and then there's haters. Where's the 50 pages of people busting Sen's chops? His performance was truly bad.
There's a lot more than just that. Generalizations are presumptuous.
The amount of double-standards on Team Liquid has spiralled out of control of late and you aren't helping. It's a total nuisance to read that crap.
Don't be part of the problem; be part of the solution.
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On January 12 2012 07:20 aintz wrote:like polt said, jinro got lucky.
I don't know about you, but I like to have luck on my side.
Sometimes you need luck in order to win.
We can go on and on about how piss poor the players were back then and where the game has yet to go.
The past is the past for a reason.
How redundant!
Thing is you always have to elevate your game.
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Northern Ireland26341 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:43 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:50 Talack wrote:On January 12 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S. Talent doesn't mean anything without the hard work input to make it work. Sen/Idra/Stephano do not have access to players of the calibre that are in the GSL and therefor do not realize (they know it but their reactions/brain doesn't process it yet...dunno how to explain but it's like lifting a 5 pound weight over and over and knowing that a 10 pound will be heavier and preparing but then it's a little heavier than you thought) that in order to compete with koreans they need to train with them. A player might be talented, but "potential" results are not as good as actual results. I agree. It's not like there aren't foreigners with the potential to compete with code S. When you look at the ways that IdrA, Stephano or Naniwa are losing, it has less to do with talent, competence or skill level, and more to do with a lack of familiarity with specific opponents and their timings. These issues are a lot easier to fix than simply not having a solid understanding of how the game works,having mediocre hand-eye coordination or apm, etc. IdrA's been back in Korea for a month. All things considered, I though he performed pretty well on his first time back in code S. People should think about how long it took a player like Leenock to become dominant.
The same Leenock that just dropped to Code A as well! There is a case to be made for Idra to not be a top, top Code S player but I think those that claim he isn't of a level where he can compete in the GSL are similarly deluded as his fanboys who were claiming he can win it! It's a very unforgiving tournament that can see players cheesed out, but on the whole the 'better players' do get through. The problem with Idra is I think he'll make up the 'lost ground' he got from playing in the foreign scene if he stays in Korea, but he doesn't seem to want to do that. These Korean jaunts are all well and good, and will see the mediocre players really sharpen their play, but if you want to be playing at a Code S level you pretty much seem to have to REMAIN there for an extended period.
On an unrelated note I'd love to see more tournaments adopt an the format the NASL used, single elimination bo5s into bo7s in the later stages. The Code S group stages just don't have enough matches for me to think of them as the ideal format, and they have 2 months seasons now so I don't get why we can't extend the series a bit.
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Idra 0-2, Sen 0-2... foreigners represent >>
I miss HuK in Code S 
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Northern Ireland26341 Posts
Hey man don't worry, we still have up and downs to come!
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On January 12 2012 06:59 SpecFire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:49 Hassybaby wrote:On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. *cough* Jinro *cough* Twice yeah twice during the times of KYRIX RAIN ANYPRO HYPERDUB THEWIND LEGALMIND LIVEFOREVER ENSNARE HuK and idra have fought a LOT harder oppenents than Jinro ever did. Its not fair to compare the two.
They were good players back then... Jinro a year ago was waaaaaaay better than Idra is now, hell Idra back then was better than Idra is now, all relatively of course.
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On January 12 2012 07:31 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:30 xrapture wrote:
Has a foreigner even made it through the qualifications for Code A? Huk was given a free spot initially. Nope.
I think we can all at least agree that Code A is a nightmare to even qualify for, let alone win.
My god, it's incredible to think that a player like Puma can't even qualify for Code A. I think you have to be a great player and a little bit lucky to make it all the way to Code S.
It's becoming more and more clear, based on how well Koreans are playing in foreign tournaments, that being a 'Code A player' isn't that bad at all.
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On January 12 2012 07:20 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:49 Hassybaby wrote:On January 12 2012 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:21 TeeTS wrote:
yeahyeah Idra fans will hate me for this, BUT: Idra lacks some skills besides macro. His micro is really bad (for a high level pro), his decision making is ok but not great, his choice of strategy is questionable at times and his tactical abilities are also very poor at times. He really needs to work on these things to be a complete player and be able to compete at the highest level, which is GSL Code S at the moment. Lucky may be the inferior player in terms of macro, and therefore lost the macro game clearly (where idra also played strategically well and the move with holding back the mutas was very nice, therefore i put in times in strategy and tactics) but in the third game he showed his lack of strategically and tactically constance. he lost the 2nd game to a roach +1 timing and those things happen. BUT they should never happen 2times in a row. And it's complete bullshit to say, that if Lucky hits 10sec later in game 3, Idra is fine. If Lucky hits 10sec later he might also have more units. What made him win this so clearly wasn't the amount of units he had or the fact that Idra did not have his Hydras out.
He made a great move with his roaches. He stutter stepped all of them in close contact at first so that most of them could fire, and then stutter stepped a part of them further into a flank, so that not just only every roach of him could deal its damage, but also he got access to the hydras. This shows a micro ability at first (not a great so, because stutter stepping is very easy with a unit that has 2sec attack speed) but also a tactical understanding. He understands how those battle works and what he has to do, to make roach only in little superior numbers work against roach hydra. And at this point he seems far ahead of Idra, who never showed those abilities in any of his games I ever saw.
Idra is one of the best foreigners, but that means on the other hand, that right now no foreigner except for maybe Naniwa has the skill to compete in Code S on a solid base. Foreigners have now 2 months of time to get into shape for the next 2 seeds. We'll see what happens next season! Don't really like IdrA or Naniwa, but I'd just like to point out that HuK is the only foreigner to have proved himself in Code S. Naniwa has an abysmal track record so far (1-11? or something like that) so I'm not sure how you can make that claim. *cough* Jinro *cough* Twice like polt said, jinro got lucky.
Then proceeded to get his ass kicked all over the studio by Jinro
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On January 12 2012 07:40 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:43 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:50 Talack wrote:On January 12 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S. Talent doesn't mean anything without the hard work input to make it work. Sen/Idra/Stephano do not have access to players of the calibre that are in the GSL and therefor do not realize (they know it but their reactions/brain doesn't process it yet...dunno how to explain but it's like lifting a 5 pound weight over and over and knowing that a 10 pound will be heavier and preparing but then it's a little heavier than you thought) that in order to compete with koreans they need to train with them. A player might be talented, but "potential" results are not as good as actual results. I agree. It's not like there aren't foreigners with the potential to compete with code S. When you look at the ways that IdrA, Stephano or Naniwa are losing, it has less to do with talent, competence or skill level, and more to do with a lack of familiarity with specific opponents and their timings. These issues are a lot easier to fix than simply not having a solid understanding of how the game works,having mediocre hand-eye coordination or apm, etc. IdrA's been back in Korea for a month. All things considered, I though he performed pretty well on his first time back in code S. People should think about how long it took a player like Leenock to become dominant. The same Leenock that just dropped to Code A as well! There is a case to be made for Idra to not be a top, top Code S player but I think those that claim he isn't of a level where he can compete in the GSL are similarly deluded as his fanboys who were claiming he can win it! It's a very unforgiving tournament that can see players cheesed out, but on the whole the 'better players' do get through. The problem with Idra is I think he'll make up the 'lost ground' he got from playing in the foreign scene if he stays in Korea, but he doesn't seem to want to do that. These Korean jaunts are all well and good, and will see the mediocre players really sharpen their play, but if you want to be playing at a Code S level you pretty much seem to have to REMAIN there for an extended period.
I agree. The players like Sjow, Thorzain, Stephano and others who went to Korea for short periods to practice and then left seem to have gained little from it because as soon as they leave they're falling behind again.
Players need to live in Korea long term.
On an unrelated note I'd love to see more tournaments adopt an the format the NASL used, single elimination bo5s into bo7s in the later stages. The Code S group stages just don't have enough matches for me to think of them as the ideal format, and they have 2 months seasons now so I don't get why we can't extend the series a bit.
You have adequate chances to prove yourself with a Bo3 format.
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On January 12 2012 08:30 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 12 2012 05:43 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:50 Talack wrote:On January 12 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:On January 12 2012 04:21 SolidMustard wrote:On January 12 2012 03:45 xrapture wrote:
No foreigner is even close to Code S level. Idra, in my opinion, is the best foreigner in the world. I say this because it's remarkable to play at such a high level doing the same macro style every game. He doesn't rely on timing pushes or gimicky play like Stephano, Nerchio, Naniwa, or Huk. When he beats someone it's because he outplayed them and deserved the win-- not that he flipped a coin and make dts while his opponent didn't make detection. His zvt may be close to Code S level, but his zvp is far from even Code A level.
I wonder how much longer this GSL Exchange program will continue. If Koreans continue to dominate every MLG, and foreigners continue to lose every match in the GSL, will it even be worth it for MLG and Gom? Stephano relies on timing pushes and gimicky play? WTF, man, did you ever see him play? he's way more talented than idra and I think he could do well in code S. And huk did manage to stay in code S for a few seasons, so your statement "no foreigner is even close to Code S" seems pretty stupid to me, sorry Sen has more talent than IdrA as well, but you need more than talent to perform well in Code S. Talent doesn't mean anything without the hard work input to make it work. Sen/Idra/Stephano do not have access to players of the calibre that are in the GSL and therefor do not realize (they know it but their reactions/brain doesn't process it yet...dunno how to explain but it's like lifting a 5 pound weight over and over and knowing that a 10 pound will be heavier and preparing but then it's a little heavier than you thought) that in order to compete with koreans they need to train with them. A player might be talented, but "potential" results are not as good as actual results. I agree. It's not like there aren't foreigners with the potential to compete with code S. When you look at the ways that IdrA, Stephano or Naniwa are losing, it has less to do with talent, competence or skill level, and more to do with a lack of familiarity with specific opponents and their timings. These issues are a lot easier to fix than simply not having a solid understanding of how the game works,having mediocre hand-eye coordination or apm, etc. IdrA's been back in Korea for a month. All things considered, I though he performed pretty well on his first time back in code S. People should think about how long it took a player like Leenock to become dominant. The same Leenock that just dropped to Code A as well! There is a case to be made for Idra to not be a top, top Code S player but I think those that claim he isn't of a level where he can compete in the GSL are similarly deluded as his fanboys who were claiming he can win it! It's a very unforgiving tournament that can see players cheesed out, but on the whole the 'better players' do get through. The problem with Idra is I think he'll make up the 'lost ground' he got from playing in the foreign scene if he stays in Korea, but he doesn't seem to want to do that. These Korean jaunts are all well and good, and will see the mediocre players really sharpen their play, but if you want to be playing at a Code S level you pretty much seem to have to REMAIN there for an extended period. I agree. The players like Sjow, Thorzain, Stephano and others who went to Korea for short periods to practice and then left seem to have gained little from it because as soon as they leave they're falling behind again. Players need to live in Korea long term. Show nested quote +
On an unrelated note I'd love to see more tournaments adopt an the format the NASL used, single elimination bo5s into bo7s in the later stages. The Code S group stages just don't have enough matches for me to think of them as the ideal format, and they have 2 months seasons now so I don't get why we can't extend the series a bit.
You have adequate chances to prove yourself with a Bo3 format.
I don't know, I think it's pretty easy to lose to two cheese/all-in builds in a row. It's not like a best of 5 is some magical number, but when you watch the NASL it never feels like anyone 'got lucky' and advanced.
That's probably part of the reason why the NASL is so boring, though
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can't believe people were actually expecting Idra to get out of this group??? Idra has been away from Korea for nearly a year, can't expect him to pick up where he left off, especially since the level of play has exploded since the open seasons and the first few GSL's.
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EPT
