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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 11 2012 22:51 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:38 Destructicon wrote:
Technically flying units clump up way more than ground units, since they have no unit colision, spreading a mass of BL and Corrupters with their slow speed is going to be hard, in the heat of battle its also hard to see which unit is being tracked by missiles and click. PDDs are still great for absorbing corrupter shots but yeah, ravens are still very expensive. Their cost is probably the only reason why people haven't tried to incorporate more of them into their play. I maybe wrong, but most of the time I see a TvX late game, the terran has a huge gas surplus and not enough minerals. Could be because even terran high tech is mostly mineral heavy (f.e. ghosts). So wouldnt ravens be a good way to spend that gas?
But the question is, why would you build Ravens in the first place when they are a huge risk and require your opponent to mess up for them to do any damage at all? That should be the actual question. With ghosts it's in your hands, if you build ravens you kind of give away control and let the zerg decide the outcome of the battle. Which in my opinion is just silly.
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On January 11 2012 22:39 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:34 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:16 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. You don't think that might have something to do with the fact that 4 infestors cost 600 gas and 8 marines cost 0? There is a huge difference between losing a marine drop and losing an infestor drop. Thats no excuse, not to harass! 4 sentries are 400 gas, and you will see this kind of drop from a protoss player occasionally. And since this drop is only viable in the early mid game, its even more risky than a 4 infestor drop in the late game, by which time zergs have huge banks And I remember some Destiny games, where he did ridiculous damage with that. Maybe the icon for the drop upgrade need a new design? You rarely see that type of drop from a protoss and you only really see it in the early to mid game (because one marines and turrets are out in big numbers it becomes to risky and the risk outweigh the potential reward). So i'm not sure what that is supposed to prove.
In the early to mid game zerg has mutas to harass making infestor drops kinda unneccesary. In the late game with turrets, vikings and sensor towers all over the map good luck doing infestor drops. Just a couple of failed attempts could see you losing the game. The zerg do have a big bank but they can't afford to throw away gas heavy units as gas is always a problem.
Losing 400 gas in the early mid is much more risky for the protoss (the gas heavy race), than losing 600 gas is for a zerg in the late game. And since protoss do take this risk, maybe its time for zergs to do the same.
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Oh wow MVP looks like he's slowing down. Did he play bad in the games he lost or something?
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:47 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark The thing is why take the risk of building ravens when ghosts get the job done? Relying only on ravens would be very risky and you would be relying on mistakes to get things done. Better to get ghosts and try and keep the match in your hands.
Well, me and Drazerk are on crusades to get more Ravens, so there's bias here, but the Raven does serve other causes as well. I think it may be a better choice to mix them together, because PDDs are just win in general, plus the creep killing and possibly dropping autoturrets can be useful.
All Terran players should get 2-3 Ravens. Or go mass Raven TLO style.
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On January 11 2012 22:54 K3Nyy wrote:
Oh wow MVP looks like he's slowing down. Did he play bad in the games he lost or something?
The two games he lost against Nestea he did an all-in which Nestea countered perfectly, and then Nestea hit him with a muta/ling/bling all in.
The one game he lost against Lucky was a long macro mech game, I swear everytime I see him mech v zerg, he loses.
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HSM has 3 less range than fungal, it really isn't viable to get ravens, you gotta stick to ghost and get some inflammation in your fingers.
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On January 11 2012 22:55 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:47 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark The thing is why take the risk of building ravens when ghosts get the job done? Relying only on ravens would be very risky and you would be relying on mistakes to get things done. Better to get ghosts and try and keep the match in your hands. Well, me and Drazerk are on crusades to get more Ravens, so there's bias here, but the Raven does serve other causes as well. I think it may be a better choice to mix them together, because PDDs are just win in general, plus the creep killing and possibly dropping autoturrets can be useful. All Terran players should get 2-3 Ravens. Or go mass Raven TLO style.
Well, don't get me wrong. I agree that Ravens are awesome (I play raven, hellion, tank, thor, banshee with lategame viking or ghosts in TvZ), they are definitely a good unit in midgame TvZ and also early-lategame, but once zerg masses infestors and broodlords I don't think ravens are the answer, you kind of just need ghosts to deal with that army composition, otherwise there is no way you can control fungals and win the air battle against corrupters (once your vikings get fungaled its lights out and raven doesnt really prevent that from happening).
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On January 11 2012 22:55 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:54 K3Nyy wrote:
Oh wow MVP looks like he's slowing down. Did he play bad in the games he lost or something? The two games he lost against Nestea he did an all-in which Nestea countered perfectly, and then Nestea hit him with a muta/ling/bling all in. The one game he lost against Lucky was a long macro mech game, I swear everytime I see him mech v zerg, he loses.
Imagine if Lucky wouldn't had killed those 30 or so scvs with his Roachbaneling timing. The game ended up being soooo super close even with the huge lead Lucky got from the whole timing push. I think people are not giving Mvp enough credit for making such a comeback from that and actually make the game as close as it was.
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On January 11 2012 22:53 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:51 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:38 Destructicon wrote:
Technically flying units clump up way more than ground units, since they have no unit colision, spreading a mass of BL and Corrupters with their slow speed is going to be hard, in the heat of battle its also hard to see which unit is being tracked by missiles and click. PDDs are still great for absorbing corrupter shots but yeah, ravens are still very expensive. Their cost is probably the only reason why people haven't tried to incorporate more of them into their play. I maybe wrong, but most of the time I see a TvX late game, the terran has a huge gas surplus and not enough minerals. Could be because even terran high tech is mostly mineral heavy (f.e. ghosts). So wouldnt ravens be a good way to spend that gas? But the question is, why would you build Ravens in the first place when they are a huge risk and require your opponent to mess up for them to do any damage at all? That should be the actual question. With ghosts it's in your hands, if you build ravens you kind of give away control and let the zerg decide the outcome of the battle. Which in my opinion is just silly.
Well, I'm not suggesting, that a terran should make ravens instead of ghost, but rather build less ghosts, and incorporate some ravens into his comp. It could be hard to micro all of that, but if there is ever going to be a terran player, who can handle it (viking spread, ghost emp and snipes, and raven PDD and HSM), I think that he will be unstoppable in late game TvZ.
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feel so bad for lucky, he played that first game so well, and then mvp just flipped his beast mode switch.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 11 2012 23:00 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:55 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:47 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark The thing is why take the risk of building ravens when ghosts get the job done? Relying only on ravens would be very risky and you would be relying on mistakes to get things done. Better to get ghosts and try and keep the match in your hands. Well, me and Drazerk are on crusades to get more Ravens, so there's bias here, but the Raven does serve other causes as well. I think it may be a better choice to mix them together, because PDDs are just win in general, plus the creep killing and possibly dropping autoturrets can be useful. All Terran players should get 2-3 Ravens. Or go mass Raven TLO style. Well, don't get me wrong. I agree that Ravens are awesome (I play raven, hellion, tank, thor, banshee with lategame viking or ghosts in TvZ), they are definitely a good unit in midgame TvZ and also early-lategame, but once zerg masses infestors and broodlords I don't think ravens are the answer, you kind of just need ghosts to deal with that army composition, otherwise there is no way you can control fungals and win the air battle against corrupters (once your vikings get fungaled its lights out and raven doesnt really prevent that from happening).
Not gonna argue there because you are 100% right. I don't think HSM is the answer like what is said about risk. However, I do think that Ravens are pretty important to deal with the corruptor side a lot more effectively, just because it effectively allows your vikings to do more damage (eliminate the corruptors from the battle with PDDs) plus I still feel that auto-turrets are a vitally unused ability in terms of choke manipulation. So I always feel that you should have 2-3 in your army
But get ghosts. They're better :D
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On January 11 2012 23:00 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:55 ch33psh33p wrote:On January 11 2012 22:54 K3Nyy wrote:
Oh wow MVP looks like he's slowing down. Did he play bad in the games he lost or something? The two games he lost against Nestea he did an all-in which Nestea countered perfectly, and then Nestea hit him with a muta/ling/bling all in. The one game he lost against Lucky was a long macro mech game, I swear everytime I see him mech v zerg, he loses. Imagine if Lucky wouldn't had killed those 30 or so scvs with his Roachbaneling timing. The game ended up being soooo super close even with the huge lead Lucky got from the whole timing push. I think people are not giving Mvp enough credit for making such a comeback from that and actually make the game as close as it was.
it was 17 not 30, kind of a big difference.
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On January 11 2012 22:55 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:54 K3Nyy wrote:
Oh wow MVP looks like he's slowing down. Did he play bad in the games he lost or something? The two games he lost against Nestea he did an all-in which Nestea countered perfectly, and then Nestea hit him with a muta/ling/bling all in. The one game he lost against Lucky was a long macro mech game, I swear everytime I see him mech v zerg, he loses.
LOL.
Did you watch MLG Providence IMMvp vs IMLosira game 2 or IMMvp vs LiquidHaypro game 3 or
GSL August RO.4 IMMvp vs ST_July game 4?
He just destoyed Zerg with superior mech forces....just sayin
btw He almost eliminated Lucky's 200 forces in 30 min but...that spine crawler!! lol
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To those wondering if ravens can be effective against broodlord/corrupter/infester you should check a bo5 between Beastqt and Slivko played last week (the 'Défi Winamax' from Millenium TV).
Here is the replay pack :
[url blocked]
The last game is a clinic on how to play TvZ miss mass nukes and full tech (even battlecruisers !) on a split map scenario.
Granted that it's not on a GSL level, those games are still very interesting. From a zerg perspective it's really disgusting but I am sure that any Terran will find it awesome  . Beastyqt late game is insane !
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On January 11 2012 23:02 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:53 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:51 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:38 Destructicon wrote:
Technically flying units clump up way more than ground units, since they have no unit colision, spreading a mass of BL and Corrupters with their slow speed is going to be hard, in the heat of battle its also hard to see which unit is being tracked by missiles and click. PDDs are still great for absorbing corrupter shots but yeah, ravens are still very expensive. Their cost is probably the only reason why people haven't tried to incorporate more of them into their play. I maybe wrong, but most of the time I see a TvX late game, the terran has a huge gas surplus and not enough minerals. Could be because even terran high tech is mostly mineral heavy (f.e. ghosts). So wouldnt ravens be a good way to spend that gas? But the question is, why would you build Ravens in the first place when they are a huge risk and require your opponent to mess up for them to do any damage at all? That should be the actual question. With ghosts it's in your hands, if you build ravens you kind of give away control and let the zerg decide the outcome of the battle. Which in my opinion is just silly. Well, I'm not suggesting, that a terran should make ravens instead of ghost, but rather build less ghosts, and incorporate some ravens into his comp. It could be hard to micro all of that, but if there is ever going to be a terran player, who can handle it (viking spread, ghost emp and snipes, and raven PDD and HSM), I think that he will be unstoppable in late game TvZ.
Yeah sure, if you have the money it's definitely not a bad idea to get 3-4 ravens (just for detection and PDD, I'm not a fan of HSM tbh). But what I'm saying is that in order to deal with broodlord/infestor you need ghosts, they have a much higher priority than ravens, but sure if you feel like you have way too much gas it definitely wouldn't hurt to get some ravens too.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:34 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:16 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. You don't think that might have something to do with the fact that 4 infestors cost 600 gas and 8 marines cost 0? There is a huge difference between losing a marine drop and losing an infestor drop. Thats no excuse, not to harass! 4 sentries are 400 gas, and you will see this kind of drop from a protoss player occasionally. And since this drop is only viable in the early mid game, its even more risky than a 4 infestor drop in the late game, by which time zergs have huge banks And I remember some Destiny games, where he did ridiculous damage with that. Maybe the icon for the drop upgrade need a new design?
The big difference here is that when you are doing a four sentry drop the Zerg will likely not have anything other than queens in the way of AA. Unless you fall asleep at the keyboard you can throw down enough ff to protect you on the ground long enough for evac. If you lose those sentries you are just flat out bad.
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Kinda knew IdrA wouldn't advance, but he'll get better. I think he's going to be here for the next GSL as well.
Did people notice an improvement in his play though? I didn't stay up.
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On January 11 2012 23:11 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:34 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:16 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. You don't think that might have something to do with the fact that 4 infestors cost 600 gas and 8 marines cost 0? There is a huge difference between losing a marine drop and losing an infestor drop. Thats no excuse, not to harass! 4 sentries are 400 gas, and you will see this kind of drop from a protoss player occasionally. And since this drop is only viable in the early mid game, its even more risky than a 4 infestor drop in the late game, by which time zergs have huge banks And I remember some Destiny games, where he did ridiculous damage with that. Maybe the icon for the drop upgrade need a new design? The big difference here is that when you are doing a four sentry drop the Zerg will likely not have anything other than queens in the way of AA. Unless you fall asleep at the keyboard you can throw down enough ff to protect you on the ground long enough for evac. If you lose those sentries you are just flat out bad.
Are you Idra? Certainly sounds like Idra...
Anyway, toss do that drop vs terran as well. Ther is simply no excuse for the passive zerg game play.
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the group went as expected...although i thought mvp would beat nestea and take 1st place
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i think the polls should just all all contain the same options for each match, haven't watched the games yet as i was at university but it's really weird when the option i presume to be yes is "Oh...my....goodness.... " but "no" has twice as many votes
please avoid this in the future, it is not only hard to read but systemically changes the votes
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EPT
