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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 11 2012 22:16 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. You don't think that might have something to do with the fact that 4 infestors cost 600 gas and 8 marines cost 0? There is a huge difference between losing a marine drop and losing an infestor drop.
Thats no excuse, not to harass! 4 sentries are 400 gas, and you will see this kind of drop from a protoss player occasionally. And since this drop is only viable in the early mid game, its even more risky than a 4 infestor drop in the late game, by which time zergs have huge banks
And I remember some Destiny games, where he did ridiculous damage with that. Maybe the icon for the drop upgrade need a new design?
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Snipe was meant to be used on people whining about Seeker's polls. Needs a buff imo, too many of them still around.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition.
Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach
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On January 11 2012 22:35 Chunhyang wrote:
Snipe was meant to be used on people whining about Seeker's polls. Needs a buff imo, too many of them still around.
All energy was used to snipe the ones hating on the hilarious GSL themes.
GSL became so much better with Bo3 and Tastosis in suits. GSL 2012. Awesomness.
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On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach
I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option.
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4713 Posts
Technically flying units clump up way more than ground units, since they have no unit colision, spreading a mass of BL and Corrupters with their slow speed is going to be hard, in the heat of battle its also hard to see which unit is being tracked by missiles and click. PDDs are still great for absorbing corrupter shots but yeah, ravens are still very expensive. Their cost is probably the only reason why people haven't tried to incorporate more of them into their play.
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On January 11 2012 22:34 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:16 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. You don't think that might have something to do with the fact that 4 infestors cost 600 gas and 8 marines cost 0? There is a huge difference between losing a marine drop and losing an infestor drop. Thats no excuse, not to harass! 4 sentries are 400 gas, and you will see this kind of drop from a protoss player occasionally. And since this drop is only viable in the early mid game, its even more risky than a 4 infestor drop in the late game, by which time zergs have huge banks And I remember some Destiny games, where he did ridiculous damage with that. Maybe the icon for the drop upgrade need a new design?
You rarely see that type of drop from a protoss and you only really see it in the early to mid game (because one marines and turrets are out in big numbers it becomes to risky and the risk outweigh the potential reward). So i'm not sure what that is supposed to prove.
In the early to mid game zerg has mutas to harass making infestor drops kinda unneccesary.
In the late game with turrets, vikings and sensor towers all over the map good luck doing infestor drops. Just a couple of failed attempts could see you losing the game.
The zerg do have a big bank but they can't afford to throw away gas heavy units as gas is always a problem.
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On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option.
Thing is Ghosts are not really practical in a Mech composition as you usually don't have that many Barracks, while you would typically have a 2 or so Starports.... but then again it's not really hard to throw down a few in the late game.
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Wheeeee videos are up on GOMTV!
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On January 11 2012 22:40 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Thing is Ghosts are not really practical in a Mech composition as you usually don't have that many Barracks, while you would typically have a 2 or so Starports.... but then again it's not really hard to throw down a few in the late game.
Yeah, but the game on bel'shir beach was pretty much clear evidence that you can't really beat infestor/BL lategame without ghosts, simply because mass fungals kill all your air units. I don't know, I just feel like terran needs mass ghosts to stand a chance. MVP had a bigger army but no ghosts (on belshir beach) and got absolutely destroyed by lucky's army composition.
edit: without ghosts you can't even do anything about mass transfuses which imo is pretty much unbeatable.... unless you have ghosts.
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On January 11 2012 22:17 darkest44 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. Problem is you can lift whatever building and run away (plus repair if you need to) from infested terrans before they can kill anything unless you use a ridiculous amount. Not to mention planetaries or tanks easily stop this. Better off fungaling SCVs, but by that point he doesn't really have many SCVs just mass mules >,< Also Terran usually has vikings at this point and can easily snipe dropping overlords, infestors cost a lot of gas and are too risky to lose, while marines are nearly free..
No, just no. 4 infestors can drop 32 infested terrans. And those suckers have SICK DPS. There is no way a building can fly away, or be repaired.
And in late game, 4 infestors are not that high in cost or risk. Just imagine this, there are toss players who do 4 sentry drops in early mid game, NOW THATS FUCKING RISKY.
And looking at the 3rd Lucky v MVP game, MVP had nothing defending his main, and his production. Lucky could have done terrible, terrible damage in there. All the vikings, ghosts and tanks were in the middle of the map, waiting for the big push.
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From watching mvp and playing toss, one thing I want to integrate in to my lategame pvz is storm drops just on larvae at various hatcheries! Of course in theory it sounds good but i'll have to play around with it.
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On January 11 2012 22:42 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:17 darkest44 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf. Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies. Problem is you can lift whatever building and run away (plus repair if you need to) from infested terrans before they can kill anything unless you use a ridiculous amount. Not to mention planetaries or tanks easily stop this. Better off fungaling SCVs, but by that point he doesn't really have many SCVs just mass mules >,< Also Terran usually has vikings at this point and can easily snipe dropping overlords, infestors cost a lot of gas and are too risky to lose, while marines are nearly free.. No, just no. 4 infestors can drop 32 infested terrans. And those suckers have SICK DPS. There is no way a building can fly away, or be repaired. And in late game, 4 infestors are not that high in cost or risk. Just imagine this, there are toss players who do 4 sentry drops in early mid game, NOW THATS FUCKING RISKY. And looking at the 3rd Lucky v MVP game, MVP had nothing defending his main, and his production. Lucky could have done terrible, terrible damage in there. All the vikings, ghosts and tanks were in the middle of the map, waiting for the big push. \
Look again there is a reason why those sentry drops are done in the early to mid game. Its because doing them at any point later in the match would be crazy. Also there is no point in the match where you can afford to just throw away 600 gas like that.
It's a risky play. Could it have worked in this game? Maybe. Suggesting that it should be anything standard like marine drops are is a little rediculous.
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On January 11 2012 22:25 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct?  As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/ Dude, get your facts straight, PDD doesnt affect broodlord attacks. And PDD doesn't help vs fungal either. Your suggestion is not well thought-out at all.
Then how about dropping PDDs to neutralize corruptors and launch HSM into the swarm of air units? AFAIK HSM is faster than all zerg fliers, except mutas.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option.
Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going
Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark
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On January 11 2012 22:47 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark
The thing is why take the risk of building ravens when ghosts get the job done? Relying only on ravens would be very risky and you would be relying on mistakes to get things done. Better to get ghosts and try and keep the match in your hands.
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On January 11 2012 22:46 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:25 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct? As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/ Dude, get your facts straight, PDD doesnt affect broodlord attacks. And PDD doesn't help vs fungal either. Your suggestion is not well thought-out at all. Then how about dropping PDDs to neutralize corruptors and launch HSM into the swarm of air units? AFAIK HSM is faster than all zerg fliers, except mutas.
You are wrong again. HSM is not faster than a corrupter and HSM deals exactly 100 damage on a single broodlord, unless the zerg is bad and clumps all of them, which he won't when he sees that you have mass ravens. Fungal also outranges HSM, so even if you force the corrupters to fly away, he can then just fungal all your vikings and ravens and reign terror.
People need to stop being so delusional, ravens are just not that good, the ghosts is superior in pretty much every single way.
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On January 11 2012 22:46 PureBalls wrote:
Then how about dropping PDDs to neutralize corruptors and launch HSM into the swarm of air units? AFAIK HSM is faster than all zerg fliers, except mutas.
HSM is such a huge investment that it almost becomes not worth it to get it when versing corruptors. Especially because of the tiny range and possibility to get clipped before it goes off. It's a cool ability, but it just seems to be inherently less effective than other ones.
Also happy Birthday!
Can't say I'm too surprised by the results. Though I am surprised that Nestea>MVP
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On January 11 2012 22:38 Destructicon wrote:
Technically flying units clump up way more than ground units, since they have no unit colision, spreading a mass of BL and Corrupters with their slow speed is going to be hard, in the heat of battle its also hard to see which unit is being tracked by missiles and click. PDDs are still great for absorbing corrupter shots but yeah, ravens are still very expensive. Their cost is probably the only reason why people haven't tried to incorporate more of them into their play.
I maybe wrong, but most of the time I see a TvX late game, the terran has a huge gas surplus and not enough minerals. Could be because even terran high tech is mostly mineral heavy (f.e. ghosts). So wouldnt ravens be a good way to spend that gas?
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On January 11 2012 22:47 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:36 Hassybaby wrote:On January 11 2012 22:33 pdd wrote:
Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition. Its pretty good when they're clumped up, yeah. Just gotta get past the fungals to do it. Plus throw down 1-2 PDDs to cover your approach I don't know man. I personally feel like using a raven vs. zerg requires the zerg to mess up greatly for them to do any damage (miss fungals, clump broodlords). Ghosts are imo the only viable option. Oh yeah, that's pretty true. You gotta be quite lucky with the Seeker Missiles to be totally effective, or your Ravens just die. I think it entirely depends on your building setup though, as well as your gas count. Getting 5-6 Ravens and Seeker Missile is pretty damn expensive, not to mention the opportunity costs of vikings and medivacs, so you you have to look at how the game is going Theoretically its viable, but like you said, the dice have to be on your side. Or the flying shark
now leave that imba stuff out of the equation! flying shark special taktikz are getting nerfed next GSL fo sure.
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EPT
