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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 11 2012 22:15 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there You don't have time to transfuse. The broodlords dies in 0.5 seconds or less. You basically need guess which broodlord will get focused next and already have the mouse over him ready to transfuse. The queens also need to be in perfect position to reach it in time. You obviously don't play the game.
Obviously not 100%, but you can just use the minimap to transfuse. It wont be that effective if there are thors firing on clumped BLs, but your BLs will stay alive longer vs especially ghosts.
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results as expected, though im pretty happy to see Nestea get first!
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On January 11 2012 22:18 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:15 R!! wrote:On January 11 2012 22:13 Leetley wrote:On January 11 2012 22:09 R!! wrote:
Before everyone jumps on the "ghosts imba" bandwagon, we've only seen MVP use ghosts this well, I've seen terrans that are supposed to be very good (e.g beastyqt) lose with mass ghosts just as much as they win with them.
I'm not even sure if the zerg has to attack into that, as the harass power of terran greatly diminishes with the lessening marine numbers and I'm pretty sure that spores everywhere prevent them from walking unscathed to nuke multiple bases at once.Also, it takes a HUGE amount of snipes to kill an ultra, I doubt that even MVP can use 165 accurate snipes(15 ultras?) in less than 5 seconds. If the zerg makes ultras, the terran will also make marauders. Ghosts paired with marauders + tanks demolish any army with high amount of ultras. Tech switch?The ultras are supposed to instantly kill the terran that made too many ghosts and has less of everything else. He had no larva to "tech switch".. I don't know why so many people in this thread seem to think ultra vs ghost/PF/tank(and potentially BC) is good AT ALL for ultra..... lol
I'm talking about the ghost situation in general '.....lol', he could've easily chosen his tech much later on(when mvp already had many ghosts) instead of compromising with blords.
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Can't believe this discussion is still ongoing. You guys sound like Leenock/DRG lost against a Code B terran :/
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On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct?  As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation?
Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/
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On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct? As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/
PDD doesnt work on broodlords attack, they fixed that long ago.
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On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct? As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/
Dude, get your facts straight, PDD doesnt affect broodlord attacks. And PDD doesn't help vs fungal either. Your suggestion is not well thought-out at all.
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On January 11 2012 22:22 ChaosTerran wrote:
For christ's sake, I'll say it again... what beats mass ghosts is mass roach/baneling, try it and stop crying about imbalance when the best player on the fucking planet owns some mediocre zerg, MVP was always supposed to win this game, he's the best player in the world and he was ahead all game.
Yeah you'll sure have a ton of larva for the 10 remaxes of lings you'll need to take down the first 2 PF's in the 3 separate fronts of them leapfrogging towards your base after having every hatch nuked repeatedly.
What you clearly don't realise is that the terran is also allowed to adapt to zerg tech choices, and doesn't necessarily have to mass produce vikings and can instead do other things with his money.
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On January 11 2012 22:22 ChaosTerran wrote:
For christ's sake, I'll say it again... what beats mass ghosts is mass roach/baneling, try it and stop crying about imbalance when the best player on the fucking planet owns some mediocre zerg, MVP was always supposed to win this game, he's the best player in the world and he was ahead all game.
Have you ever tried going roach baneling in a late game situation like that? I don't that is going to be all that effective considering how many tanks and planataries there were around. If a zerg goes roach baneling as their late game composition they will almost certainly be crushed.
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On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct? As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs ( which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/
No. And Ravens are maybe “cool,” but they still cost 200 gas.
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On January 11 2012 22:24 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:08 Lunareste wrote:On January 11 2012 22:02 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:57 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 11 2012 21:56 bittman wrote:On January 11 2012 21:54 Sub40APM wrote:On January 11 2012 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
An hive-tech energy-regeneration upgrade for infestor...hmm? Im just shooting ideas here but I think something feels slightly shewed in these late-game scenarios for zerg against a bazillion ghosts.
BTW, AMAAAAZING game and play from MVP. He simply is the god among men. yah i mean, if you let terran to turrtle up to 20 ghosts...what can you do Banelings. Ghosts don't outrun blings. Of course that's only from what I've seen in non MVP games. I'm yet to see MVP lose lategame TvZ with ghosts... But then tanks are a problem. I'm fairly sure tanks counter banelings, correct? As a transition from a big battle with BL's, usually even if the BL's have died they've at least lessened tank numbers (or done 0 damage) and terran will now have a lot of vikings. Of course pure bling isn't what I'm saying, someone suggested ultra bling which sounds good. Ultra takes tank shots, blings get ghosts. Roach infestor bling might work as well. But to backtrack a little bit, I do agree that ghosts might be too advantageous currently in TvZ lategame. I just think that given it's still a rare occurrence we probably haven't seen properly fleshed out counters develop from top Zerg players. Instead they all continue to look lost. More famously so Nestea at Blizzcon and July in GSL September/October. But as MVP is almost the only TvZ player we see this from, and even then 1 game in a series, it's hard to see proper counters being developed and put into action yet. So, if I may ask, what do you propose that a Terran does in late game scenarios like the game prior where Corrupters provided perfect air dominance and a meching Terran was not able to get to the brood lords to stop the final zerg army? Infestors/Corrupter/Brood Lord seems like it would have no counter in that scenario, because Fungal counters both Marines and Vikings. What do you think a Terran can do to win in that situation? Make 5-6 Ravens, throw down PDDs (which take care of both the corruptor and BL attacks) and spread his vikings to minimize the fungal damage. But you wont see that, because for some reason terrans are ignoring their awesome flying wizard. And it's really a shame, since ravens are soooo cool. Easily the coolest terran unit. :-/
They nerfed the PDD, so it no longer eats the broodlings which are the real attack of the BLs. I don't even think it eats the base attack itself, but even if it did, it wouldn't really matter. If it still did, Raven would be used, since when terrans realized it did eat it, there was a lot of terrans that were starting to use it.
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On January 11 2012 22:23 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there You don't have time to transfuse. The broodlords dies in 0.5 seconds or less. You basically need guess which broodlord will get focused next and already have the mouse over him ready to transfuse. The queens also need to be in perfect position to reach it in time. You obviously don't play the game. Obviously not 100%, but you can just use the minimap to transfuse. It wont be that effective if there are thors firing on clumped BLs, but your BLs will stay alive longer vs especially ghosts.
Thanks for the good laugh. Use the minimap to transfuse the broodlords? Ok, I'm getting trolled here.
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On January 11 2012 22:26 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:22 ChaosTerran wrote:
For christ's sake, I'll say it again... what beats mass ghosts is mass roach/baneling, try it and stop crying about imbalance when the best player on the fucking planet owns some mediocre zerg, MVP was always supposed to win this game, he's the best player in the world and he was ahead all game. Have you ever tried going roach baneling in a late game situation like that? I don't that is going to be all that effective considering how many tanks and planataries there were around. If a zerg goes roach baneling as their late game composition they will almost certainly be crushed.
No they won't be crushed. In the first fight you have to kill all the tanks with the broodlords or as many as you can and then remax with 3/3 roaches and banelings and trust me 3/3 roaches kill planetaries in less than a second and ghosts are awful against roaches and banelings alike.
In fact, why don't you just go and try it out yourself? Do you actually want to know how to beat it or are you just hear to complain about imbalance??
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Anyways, if more terrans other than the best player in the world start commonly using ghosts this cost-efficientl I might actually believe that they are OP, till then, keep them tears coming.
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On January 11 2012 22:28 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:26 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:22 ChaosTerran wrote:
For christ's sake, I'll say it again... what beats mass ghosts is mass roach/baneling, try it and stop crying about imbalance when the best player on the fucking planet owns some mediocre zerg, MVP was always supposed to win this game, he's the best player in the world and he was ahead all game. Have you ever tried going roach baneling in a late game situation like that? I don't that is going to be all that effective considering how many tanks and planataries there were around. If a zerg goes roach baneling as their late game composition they will almost certainly be crushed. No they won't be crushed. In the first fight you have to kill all the tanks with the broodlords or as many as you can and then remax with 3/3 roaches and banelings and trust me 3/3 roaches kill planetaries in less than a second and ghosts are awful against roaches and banelings alike.
Why would i trust you? There is a reason why you don't see any roaches late game in ZvT. They are incredibly cost innefficient and they will never break through the wall of units and PF's that MVP had.
On top of that you aren't actually proposing a solution at all. You say just use the broods to kill the tanks off first but the problem is the broodlord army dies before it can get in a position to do that.
I can see what you're saying and it has some merit but i personally don't think it is the ideal solution in late game TvZ.
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On January 11 2012 22:27 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:23 Zarahtra wrote:On January 11 2012 22:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there You don't have time to transfuse. The broodlords dies in 0.5 seconds or less. You basically need guess which broodlord will get focused next and already have the mouse over him ready to transfuse. The queens also need to be in perfect position to reach it in time. You obviously don't play the game. Obviously not 100%, but you can just use the minimap to transfuse. It wont be that effective if there are thors firing on clumped BLs, but your BLs will stay alive longer vs especially ghosts. Thanks for the good laugh. Use the minimap to transfuse the broodlords? Ok, I'm getting trolled here.
Trolled? You are complaining a terran can focus fire with ghosts your BLs to fast, right? Well transfusing via the minimap is really easy, doesn't heal units that are on full hp(which BLs *usually* are before the big fight and during it, until they get focused, unless a thor is firing on a clump) and is just as fast as sniping, so your BLs will live longer. I mean like I said, there are scenarios which this isn't effective, but don't dismiss it off the bat for the others.
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Isn't Seeker Missile when spammed pretty good against Corrupter/BL? I'm not sure, just saw Jinro use it a couple of times in a Mech composition to very good effect against that composition.
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On January 11 2012 22:30 R!! wrote:
Anyways, if more terrans other than the best player in the world start commonly using ghosts this cost-efficientl I might actually believe that they are OP, till then, keep them tears coming.
OP, probably not. Too cheap? Oh yeah.
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People need to read the heading and stop balance whining.
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On January 11 2012 22:31 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:28 ChaosTerran wrote:On January 11 2012 22:26 ElBlanco wrote:On January 11 2012 22:22 ChaosTerran wrote:
For christ's sake, I'll say it again... what beats mass ghosts is mass roach/baneling, try it and stop crying about imbalance when the best player on the fucking planet owns some mediocre zerg, MVP was always supposed to win this game, he's the best player in the world and he was ahead all game. Have you ever tried going roach baneling in a late game situation like that? I don't that is going to be all that effective considering how many tanks and planataries there were around. If a zerg goes roach baneling as their late game composition they will almost certainly be crushed. No they won't be crushed. In the first fight you have to kill all the tanks with the broodlords or as many as you can and then remax with 3/3 roaches and banelings and trust me 3/3 roaches kill planetaries in less than a second and ghosts are awful against roaches and banelings alike. Why would i trust you? There is a reason why you don't see any roaches late game in ZvT. They are incredibly cost innefficient and they will never break through the wall of units and PF's that MVP had. On top of that you aren't actually proposing a solution at all. You say just use the broods to kill the tanks off first but the problem is the broodlord army dies before it can get in a position to do that. I can see what you're saying and it has some merit but i personally don't think it is the ideal solution in late game TvZ.
The reason you usually don't see mass roach in TvZ is because they are bad against mass tanks and mass marines with medivacs. But lategame when the terran is massing ghosts and vikings he has neither of those units in high numbers. Ghosts are bad against roaches, so build roaches. I played against a friend of mine and told him to go mass roach baneling vs mass ghost (split map) and I lost the game in pretty convincing fashion, ghosts just don't do much vs mass roaches at all and planetaries just die instantly.
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EPT
