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Let's have a nice clean LR thread folks! Beware that moderation will probably be stricter than usual, balance whine, player bashing and trolling will not be tolerated! |
On January 11 2012 22:06 blacksheepwall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:04 NipponBanzai wrote:
No kidding. Zergs can remax quickly with a decent bank. What does that have to do with lucky being behind all game? I'm just saying that it's one of several factors to consider his bank when determining how far behind Lucky was moving into the late game (post max).
But that's just a natural preogression of zerg. As long as the terran doesn't outright kill a zerg, the zerg will eventually max out and get a bank. This is regardless of how far ahead the terran is.
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So if we limit the amount of corruptors and still have a decent number of broodlords to deal with tanks and add some banelings to the "ultimate composition" of zerg to deal with the ghosts.
Now we have some serious micro issues as a zerg. The ghosts can remain cloaked so getting fungals (still pretty hard to see the ghosts) or get an overseer near the ghosts. Note that you need quite, quite many overseers so that all can't be instantly sniped or shot down by the vikings.
If this works as intended, the terran should have quite many vikings, because we needed to reduce the amount of corruptors, so the air fight can be lost. Now the zerg should have a big bank to remax with anything the player basically wants. The terran can't remax as fast as the zerg and composition like ultra/baneling could carry for the win.
Does anyone see big problems with this?
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I have to say, this Bo3 group format is so much better than the Bo1 format.
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On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal
huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too.
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Before everyone jumps on the "ghosts imba" bandwagon, we've only seen MVP use ghosts this well, I've seen terrans that are supposed to be very good (e.g beastyqt) lose with mass ghosts just as much as they win with them.
I'm not even sure if the zerg has to attack into that, as the harass power of terran greatly diminishes with the lessening marine numbers and I'm pretty sure that spores everywhere prevent them from walking unscathed to nuke multiple bases at once.Also, it takes a HUGE amount of snipes to kill an ultra, I doubt that even MVP can use 165 accurate snipes(15 ultras?) in less than 5 seconds.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:07 ElephantBaby wrote:
MVP's TvZ is still shaky.
Since when is 2nd best TvZ in the world shaky?
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On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities.
Was this Leencok vs ForGG on daybreak? Because after re-watching the vod it really blew my mind how Leenock won that given all the strong points in ForGG's build (fast uprgrades, early maxed bio army that preps into healthy ghost numbers, etc). I definitively wouldn't overlook that type of turtle approach to the game just because it was such a refined process of getting maxed out bio at 3/3 really quickly. I think if mistakes such as leaving all of his ghosts clumped in the front to get fungal/banelinged were avoided, the game definitively would have looked different. (16 ghosts gone like that, aww...)
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On January 11 2012 22:07 darkest44 wrote:
When will zerg figure out this MVP late game style..? There's no excuse for having 5k minerals and yet not making multiple spores and spines around every base to stop that mass nuke play + drops from tearing your economy apart. Lucky stopped the first few ghosts then I guess he got cocky so he didn't build spores/spines in the obvious spots and then the ghosts and drops started owning him hard losing his tech structures, larva and hatcheries multiple times. He could have spent 1/10th the cost of what he lost on spines/spores and been perfectly safe.
To be fair, he was just nuking the spores/spines instead. Admittedly that would've been better than the end result of getting all your hatches decimated, but I kind of feel like he didn't really realize how good lings and blings are against ghosts. Think having more lings to kill the ghosts would've helped. It's still a bit hard to say, since normally the zerg is making units to counter the terran, but in that game, I felt MVP was rather making units to counter the zerg
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France12758 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:10 MCDayC wrote:Since when is 2nd best TvZ in the world shaky?
We will have to see him against Leenock (not this season obviously) and DongRaeGu, the "current" top notch zergs, to see how his TvZ really look.
And he lost to NesTea too, so claiming him the 2nd best TvZ in the world is a bit funny when we have the likes of Jjakji & MMA around
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On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too.
snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem?
As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter than infestors and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. In best scenario, 17 yards away from your ghosts. GL trying to get over there
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On January 11 2012 22:09 R!! wrote:
Before everyone jumps on the "ghosts imba" bandwagon, we've only seen MVP use ghosts this well, I've seen terrans that are supposed to be very good (e.g beastyqt) lose with mass ghosts just as much as they win with them.
I'm not even sure if the zerg has to attack into that, as the harass power of terran greatly diminishes with the lessening marine numbers and I'm pretty sure that spores everywhere prevent them from walking unscathed to nuke multiple bases at once.Also, it takes a HUGE amount of snipes to kill an ultra, I doubt that even MVP can use 165 accurate snipes(15 ultras?) in less than 5 seconds.
Juily vs MVP
Xigua vs MVP
and probably some more are some examples of snipe vs Ultralisk, also realise that it wont only be snipes killing the ultras:
+3 attack tanks
and PF's (MVP had three in this game where his army was.
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On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too.
queens should be out of range although the micro to transfuse would have to react extremely quickly!
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On January 11 2012 21:59 Fabsi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 21:54 Inflicted_ wrote:On January 11 2012 21:53 Fabsi wrote:
hm, don't quite know what to say about that game. obviously well played by MVP but ghosts and turtleing terran always leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. gg anyway i guess! Turtling terrans can get crushed easily (see: Leenock vs ForGG). What MVP does, isn't just pure turtling but getting the ultimate composition with ghosts while doing mass-drops to kill off the 4th/5th/6th bases to starve off the Zerg and reduce their re-max capabilities. yea, i agree. terran is just so well equiped for these scenarios, if a player of MVPs caliber is in command and has the apm/understanding to pull it off. 3/3 marine drops really are a mayor part of the strategy. ot: kind of funny imagining a 8 ling drop (or lets say 16 lings = same supply) destroying 3 bunkers and a oc/pf.
Well, its late game. So whats stopping a zerg from dropping like 4 infestors full with energy, spaming infested teranns, and crushing tech buildings? Infested terrans have SICK DPS, so they take building down in no time. I think it all comes down to zergs not being used to harassing their enemies.
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On January 11 2012 22:09 R!! wrote:
Before everyone jumps on the "ghosts imba" bandwagon, we've only seen MVP use ghosts this well, I've seen terrans that are supposed to be very good (e.g beastyqt) lose with mass ghosts just as much as they win with them.
I'm not even sure if the zerg has to attack into that, as the harass power of terran greatly diminishes with the lessening marine numbers and I'm pretty sure that spores everywhere prevent them from walking unscathed to nuke multiple bases at once.Also, it takes a HUGE amount of snipes to kill an ultra, I doubt that even MVP can use 165 accurate snipes(15 ultras?) in less than 5 seconds.
If the zerg makes ultras, the terran will also make marauders. Ghosts paired with marauders + tanks demolish any army with high amount of ultras.
Edit: Ultras are gonna get the charge in HotS, so we gotta see how things are then.
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On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there
..... Snipe is instant cast..... Terran queues it up and the broods instantly die, you dont get a chance to HEAL..... when someone has 30+ ghosts, it's not hard to blanket EMP them....
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:12 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:10 MCDayC wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 ElephantBaby wrote:
MVP's TvZ is still shaky. Since when is 2nd best TvZ in the world shaky? We will have to see him against Leenock (not this season obviously) and DongRaeGu, the "current" top notch zergs, to see how his TvZ really look. And he lost to NesTea too, so claiming him the 2nd best TvZ in the world is a bit funny when we have the likes of Jjakji & MMA around
Bear in mind he trains with DRG regularly when he has to play TvZs against big players, so his preparation is pretty good. Interesting about how it went today though.
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On January 11 2012 22:13 Leetley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:09 R!! wrote:
Before everyone jumps on the "ghosts imba" bandwagon, we've only seen MVP use ghosts this well, I've seen terrans that are supposed to be very good (e.g beastyqt) lose with mass ghosts just as much as they win with them.
I'm not even sure if the zerg has to attack into that, as the harass power of terran greatly diminishes with the lessening marine numbers and I'm pretty sure that spores everywhere prevent them from walking unscathed to nuke multiple bases at once.Also, it takes a HUGE amount of snipes to kill an ultra, I doubt that even MVP can use 165 accurate snipes(15 ultras?) in less than 5 seconds. If the zerg makes ultras, the terran will also make marauders. Ghosts paired with marauders + tanks demolish any army with high amount of ultras.
build roach/baneling and you easily beat mass ghosts, I'm not even kidding, just try it.
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That was really awesome play by MVP. He took control of the game when he sniped that third early on and never let it go, the entire flow of the game was directed by him. Lucky never actually came back even though he got maxed and had good bank. He was never in a position to win unless he got lucky with fungals on the ghosts but MVP is far too good at positioning them for that to happen. I don't think it was necessary for him to let the game go on for that long but it was still really fun to watch how he went about dragging Lucky behind in his wake.
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Im a Protoss so absolutely inbiased in the TvZ matchup. And from my perspective, no one can match MVPs late-game control of a terran composition. MVP just did everything absolutely fucking right. He's the unbreakable wall.
@Zergs Don't cry about that composition if only 1 terran player manages to be that potent with it. If more players are getting that devastating with it, then we can discuss that.
For today, i lost 50Cent in total, but i'm goddamn happy about the outcome and games of today, especially the last series. The deserving players advanced and i'm already fucking pumped for the next Round of code S.
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On January 11 2012 22:12 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 22:09 snafoo wrote:On January 11 2012 22:07 iky43210 wrote:
why not brood/queens? If he can snipe, you can surely heal huh? EMP? and snipe does dmg really fast too. snipe is 25 energy for 45 dmg, heal is 50 energy for 125 hp. I don't see any problem? As for emp, you probably have never tried emping a queen. They're fatter and much harder to do since they can transfuse far behind broodlord line. GL trying to get over there
You don't have time to transfuse. The broodlords dies in 0.5 seconds or less. You basically need guess which broodlord will get focused next and already have the mouse over him ready to transfuse. The queens also need to be in perfect position to reach it in time.
You obviously don't play the game.
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EPT
