|
On December 24 2011 09:31 AngryFarmer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On December 24 2011 06:07 devPLEASE wrote:On December 24 2011 05:58 HinagikUx wrote:On December 24 2011 05:13 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. lol, hero is definitely better than creator/tassadar and JYP (at PvT for sure). You cant make assumptions about play in foreigner events. Hero can hold his own vs Puma, and puma iirc was top 3 on the korean ladder for awhile with a really high win%. No use in making blind assumptions that "oh if this person went to mlg, theyd make it far easily". Hero lost to Mvp in the Blizz Cup. His vT is decent but not astounding. I'm not sure you can say losing to MVP is a huge blow to his reputation. I mean, MVP is MVP. MVP is not that great at TvP record wise so I think his remark is somewhat justified.
MVP's TvP is more a reflection of the metagame then a lack of individual quality at the matchup in general, MVP has a better TvP then pretty much any GSL code S terran out there. His strategies in TvP aren't jaw-dropping, but they're great nonetheless.
|
On December 24 2011 02:10 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:09 AxionSteel wrote:On December 23 2011 23:37 SeaSwift wrote:On December 23 2011 23:28 Eppa! wrote:On December 23 2011 23:25 awesomoecalypse wrote:Parting probably has the best PvT of all toss players. Sage probably has the best PvZ (at least in practice). Out of all protoss players he probably has the best chance of winning codeS. uh, MC? It's look like he's got his form back lately, and MC on his game is definitely still one of the most dangerous players in the world. I realize his "just go fucking kill the opponent" style isn't as flashy as Hero's ludicrous multitask, but damn if it isn't effective when paired with MC-level timing and mechanics. MCs PvZ isn't very good though. He the sort of player that can beat any player but his style brings a lot of variance. Since the first poster quoted said "in practice" to justify Sage's PvZ, I think it's also safe to use MC's practice here. Stephano showed on his stream that MC is just on another level, especially in practice. MC has also said that he is more confident in PvZ, because he has "figured it out". Then, DRG said in the BlizzCup interviews after he beat MC that he expected MC to win the whole thing. That considered, and after watching Oz's atrocious PvZ vs Curious (considering Oz is the closest contender to Protoss King), I think it's safe to say that MC still is the best at PvZ. MC did not have very good PvZ a short time ago. But the boss is back. /fanboy EDIT: And the poster first quoted said something about Parting having the best PvT. Considering we've seen a total of 2 PvTs with him vs other pro Terrans in which he won (and one was against TOP...), I don't think he can be considered truly up there. As far as PvT goes, MC has always been at the top, although Oz is also pretty damn high too. MC has some sick fanboys lol. His PvZ has been woeful for ages, is barely 50% in Korea, he'll need to do a lot more to convince me he has the best PvZ in Korea, although he obviously is playing better lately. NONE of the protoss players are consistent in korea in pvz. absolutely none. the so called best protosses in the world: huk has an overall 50%, destroyed by code a or below players frequently in the tlpd. hero, the "pvz sniper" has an atrocious record in pvz in korea. Sage has 57% but he has wins from players like Naya or Shinefou who are unknown and his record is not representetive enough. from the records it seems like actually JYP has the most impressive pvz results, but a lot of his wins are from lesser players and from a longer time ago, he hasn't really proven himself vs the best zvp players (bar drg), cuz 4 months ago he beat drg 2-1 (but then he also lost to him 1-2 a little earlier) MC has had problems with pvz everyone knows- but recently he beat leenock, he lost to a close series to drg where he went 2base carriers at one game, and he would have won it 2-1 had it been a bo3, he beat leenock easily, who manhandled naniwa and huk recently. i mean there is no real evidence who has the best pvz in the world, so it's not really "sick fanboyism" to call MC the best since all we can do is assumptions and MC is still the best toss overall result wise, his mechanics are probably the best, and is doing pretty damn well lately, at least a lot better than huk or naniwa... then there is Genius, who won his group 4-0 but i remember 2 gsls ago he played the stupidest games in gsl history... too inconsistent, but is a competitor for the best spot on his best day. and there is Oz, who got pretty far in the gsl but isn't that good result-wise, his pvz is fairly unproven all we know he lost to curious 4-0 a month ago. and we have brown, parting etc these newer guys that we know nothing about, can't base anything on 2 games played. so, overall it's not sick fanboyism at all to say MC is the best. there is no clear best, like MVP of terran, but MC is certainly the strongest competitor. if you think his pvz is woeful, check out the others' stats, they're just as woeful bar JYP's who hasn't played much. and MC had good results vs two top3 zergs lately in best of 5's.
According to Slayers, Brown barely ever loses PvZs
|
On December 24 2011 12:15 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 11:58 fatalities wrote:On December 24 2011 11:51 wklbishop wrote:On December 24 2011 11:26 double620 wrote:On December 24 2011 11:22 HolyArrow wrote:On December 24 2011 11:19 double620 wrote:On December 24 2011 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:
Since the Up/Downs are over, what's the race distribution for Code S now? You should have a rough idea about this without even thinking. Sure I do. But I'm just looking for at least a trend toward the race distribution evening out a bit, even if it doesn't all happen in one season. I think it is like 15 terran, 9 zergs and 8 tosses. There are 8 zergs and 9 tosses actually. But yea, the distribution is improving. Other way around. Puzzle, Brown, PartinG, Oz, MC, Inca, Genius, JYP. Eight Protoss. excellent line up for Protoss. I think these are the best Protosses in the world right now. They all have good control and mind set in early, mid and late game. Inca and JYP may be a lil weaker but they could do very well.
Was really hoping to see HuK and NaNiwa in Code S. Hopefully IdrA and Sen can rep foreigners well.
|
I almost couldn't watch these games yesterday. The play was absolutely below par; so many huge mistakes, and yugioh got top in group by basically playing semi-solid with standard responses. It was heartbreaking especially since Hero could've made it as long as he scouted that pylon T_T
|
On December 24 2011 13:23 kidd wrote:
I almost couldn't watch these games yesterday. The play was absolutely below par; so many huge mistakes, and yugioh got top in group by basically playing semi-solid with standard responses. It was heartbreaking especially since Hero could've made it as long as he scouted that pylon T_T
I agree with most of this, except Yugi-oh playing standard. He had an insane amount of infestors early one in his game against JYP, it was like watching a PvZ from 6 months ago.
|
On December 24 2011 13:25 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 13:23 kidd wrote:
I almost couldn't watch these games yesterday. The play was absolutely below par; so many huge mistakes, and yugioh got top in group by basically playing semi-solid with standard responses. It was heartbreaking especially since Hero could've made it as long as he scouted that pylon T_T I agree with most of this, except Yugi-oh playing standard. He had an insane amount of infestors early one in his game against JYP, it was like watching a PvZ from 6 months ago.
I mean I guess, but I think most good zergs would agree that infestors are a better counter to stargate play in that situation than hydras. He also did ling infestor against july into roach which isn't super standard, but it was probably the best response especially since july was so aggressive with his mutas as opposed to just controlling map and expanding/going into roach or hive tech like nestea does.
|
On December 24 2011 12:54 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 02:10 msjakofsky wrote:On December 24 2011 00:09 AxionSteel wrote:On December 23 2011 23:37 SeaSwift wrote:On December 23 2011 23:28 Eppa! wrote:On December 23 2011 23:25 awesomoecalypse wrote:Parting probably has the best PvT of all toss players. Sage probably has the best PvZ (at least in practice). Out of all protoss players he probably has the best chance of winning codeS. uh, MC? It's look like he's got his form back lately, and MC on his game is definitely still one of the most dangerous players in the world. I realize his "just go fucking kill the opponent" style isn't as flashy as Hero's ludicrous multitask, but damn if it isn't effective when paired with MC-level timing and mechanics. MCs PvZ isn't very good though. He the sort of player that can beat any player but his style brings a lot of variance. Since the first poster quoted said "in practice" to justify Sage's PvZ, I think it's also safe to use MC's practice here. Stephano showed on his stream that MC is just on another level, especially in practice. MC has also said that he is more confident in PvZ, because he has "figured it out". Then, DRG said in the BlizzCup interviews after he beat MC that he expected MC to win the whole thing. That considered, and after watching Oz's atrocious PvZ vs Curious (considering Oz is the closest contender to Protoss King), I think it's safe to say that MC still is the best at PvZ. MC did not have very good PvZ a short time ago. But the boss is back. /fanboy EDIT: And the poster first quoted said something about Parting having the best PvT. Considering we've seen a total of 2 PvTs with him vs other pro Terrans in which he won (and one was against TOP...), I don't think he can be considered truly up there. As far as PvT goes, MC has always been at the top, although Oz is also pretty damn high too. MC has some sick fanboys lol. His PvZ has been woeful for ages, is barely 50% in Korea, he'll need to do a lot more to convince me he has the best PvZ in Korea, although he obviously is playing better lately. NONE of the protoss players are consistent in korea in pvz. absolutely none. the so called best protosses in the world: huk has an overall 50%, destroyed by code a or below players frequently in the tlpd. hero, the "pvz sniper" has an atrocious record in pvz in korea. Sage has 57% but he has wins from players like Naya or Shinefou who are unknown and his record is not representetive enough. from the records it seems like actually JYP has the most impressive pvz results, but a lot of his wins are from lesser players and from a longer time ago, he hasn't really proven himself vs the best zvp players (bar drg), cuz 4 months ago he beat drg 2-1 (but then he also lost to him 1-2 a little earlier) MC has had problems with pvz everyone knows- but recently he beat leenock, he lost to a close series to drg where he went 2base carriers at one game, and he would have won it 2-1 had it been a bo3, he beat leenock easily, who manhandled naniwa and huk recently. i mean there is no real evidence who has the best pvz in the world, so it's not really "sick fanboyism" to call MC the best since all we can do is assumptions and MC is still the best toss overall result wise, his mechanics are probably the best, and is doing pretty damn well lately, at least a lot better than huk or naniwa... then there is Genius, who won his group 4-0 but i remember 2 gsls ago he played the stupidest games in gsl history... too inconsistent, but is a competitor for the best spot on his best day. and there is Oz, who got pretty far in the gsl but isn't that good result-wise, his pvz is fairly unproven all we know he lost to curious 4-0 a month ago. and we have brown, parting etc these newer guys that we know nothing about, can't base anything on 2 games played. so, overall it's not sick fanboyism at all to say MC is the best. there is no clear best, like MVP of terran, but MC is certainly the strongest competitor. if you think his pvz is woeful, check out the others' stats, they're just as woeful bar JYP's who hasn't played much. and MC had good results vs two top3 zergs lately in best of 5's. According to Slayers, Brown barely ever loses PvZs
I'd trust SlayerS, but their Z lineup is awful. We don't know where Coca's at, and YuGiOh is still YuGiOh, the guy his teammates picked to have a free win in their Code S group.
And if they're talking about ladder, we all know that ladder is not that reliable.
That being said, Brown did show a great PvZ against Losira.
|
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players.
|
On December 24 2011 14:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players.
You know, all of this seems a bit arbitrary (not as arbitrary as your caps locking but whatever ;D). YuGiOh's infestors should be standard and Inca's DTs are gimmicky?
DT's "are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making". I can say that too, doesn't make it more true.
|
On December 24 2011 14:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players.
Can you please enlighten me as to what is so absolutely magnificent about Creatorprime?
|
I have no idea where to ask this, so I'm asking here.
When is Code B? And is it going to be casted this time around? (Yes, I mean the prelims)
|
On December 24 2011 06:03 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:53 Olinimm wrote:On December 24 2011 05:46 msjakofsky wrote:On December 24 2011 05:13 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. Oz, Killer, and Genius have all competed in foreign tournaments. None of them have replicated or bested Hero's overseas feats. heros international games played: 241, 2 gold 1 silver genius: 38- blizzcon gold oz: 36 1 silver sangho: 22 yeah, it's a fair comparison. hero is much more succesful in proportion (this was sarcasm if you didn't get it) to make a fair comparison: hero: 241, 2 gold 1 silver mc: 262, 3 gold, 4 silver, 2 bronze you see now how astounding hero's overseas feats are Plus 1 of hero's golds isn't even a major lan so it doesn't count really. Not that i dont love MC, but his achievements are REALLY outdated and he won the majority of these tournaments when his gate timings were actually working. Hero is relatively new, and the metagame has changed since then + the foreigner events such as MLG have many more koreans that attend now (such as mma, bomber, july, and mvp and nestea at providence), so its much harder to take a gold or silver. Genius's blizzcon win was seriously right when sc2 came out, and PvZ standard was still 4gate. This statistic doesnt prove shit, its better to look at the quality of the games and the competition at the event. Learn to make a good argument.
Umm MC got his 2nd place at MLG after the "metagame changed". Why do people have this idea that Hero is around MC's level lol.. Hero lost to asd in code a, MC destroys bomber. Hero goes 0-4 in Blizzcup, and does poorly in the worst group of the up and downs. I think him beating foreigners in foreign tournaments is whats making people delusional.
|
On December 24 2011 14:53 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:03 HinagikUx wrote:On December 24 2011 05:53 Olinimm wrote:On December 24 2011 05:46 msjakofsky wrote:On December 24 2011 05:13 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On December 24 2011 02:28 vnlegend wrote:On December 24 2011 00:59 Dauntless wrote:On December 24 2011 00:05 vnlegend wrote:
Well I guess that settles that with Hero. He's not code S caliber and worse than many Korean protosses. Luckily for him he has the support to fly out to foreign events and win more prizes. Derp. "Well, that certainly settles it.". Way to judge off of the stupid format of the up & down matches. If it wasn't such a stupid format, he'd have a much greater chance of advancing. I have serious doubts that July and JYP would best him in a Bo3 or more. Also, Khaldor's casting is incredibly bad. He never contributes to anything that we're not actually seeing on the main screen. He has no understanding of neither Protoss nor Terran, and is constantly predicting wrong outcomes of battles etc. And he can't seem to ever get the names right. Focus, man. This guy conveniently forgot that Hero has been playing in the GSL for over a year in Korea and never got far in Code A or reached Code S. There's a pattern of denial here where Hero is "one of the best" despite always being eliminated by any number of random Korean pros. There are plenty of Protosses better than Hero in Korea. They just never got the chance to fly overseas and roflstomp foreigners. Any of these guys would replicate if not best Hero's overseas feats: Oz, Killer, JYP, Puzzle, Sage, Genius, Creator, Tassadar, etc. It's called being the big fish in a small pond. Oz, Killer, and Genius have all competed in foreign tournaments. None of them have replicated or bested Hero's overseas feats. heros international games played: 241, 2 gold 1 silver genius: 38- blizzcon gold oz: 36 1 silver sangho: 22 yeah, it's a fair comparison. hero is much more succesful in proportion (this was sarcasm if you didn't get it) to make a fair comparison: hero: 241, 2 gold 1 silver mc: 262, 3 gold, 4 silver, 2 bronze you see now how astounding hero's overseas feats are Plus 1 of hero's golds isn't even a major lan so it doesn't count really. Not that i dont love MC, but his achievements are REALLY outdated and he won the majority of these tournaments when his gate timings were actually working. Hero is relatively new, and the metagame has changed since then + the foreigner events such as MLG have many more koreans that attend now (such as mma, bomber, july, and mvp and nestea at providence), so its much harder to take a gold or silver. Genius's blizzcon win was seriously right when sc2 came out, and PvZ standard was still 4gate. This statistic doesnt prove shit, its better to look at the quality of the games and the competition at the event. Learn to make a good argument. Umm MC got his 2nd place at MLG after the "metagame changed". Why do people have this idea that Hero is around MC's level lol.. Hero lost to asd in code a, MC destroys bomber. Hero goes 0-4 in Blizzcup, and does poorly in the worst group of the up and downs. I think him beating foreigners in foreign tournaments is whats making people delusional.
Pretty much this. Gsl is on a completely different level than any tourny in the world. Hero beating foreigners =/= being the best protoss.
|
no one caught the kpop list for today  ?
|
United States15275 Posts
On December 24 2011 13:23 kidd wrote:
I almost couldn't watch these games yesterday. The play was absolutely below par; so many huge mistakes, and yugioh got top in group by basically playing semi-solid with standard responses. It was heartbreaking especially since Hero could've made it as long as he scouted that pylon T_T
So? Everyone who swept their groups basically played standard. 3/4ths of Bomber's games were 2 base bio pushes. It's extremely hard to prepare something flashy in a BO1 format, and the best players were the ones that made the least amount of mistakes (also true for the entire competitive scene).
|
On December 24 2011 14:38 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 14:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players. Can you please enlighten me as to what is so absolutely magnificent about Creatorprime?
he is pretty much the first to play the current PvT double forge strategies, and PvZ with storm and blink instead of collosus, and he is credited as one of the best PvP practice partners available.
his understanding of protoss is on a different level than alot of protoss's on that list, though his nerves really hurt him.
as for Inca, he's done the same strategies of DT expand into two base all in, DT all in, DT expand into standard, and 2 stargate voidray, since release, and i've yet to be impressed by his ability to do so. he only really is anything special at all when he 4 gates, which is not really a good thing. he's definitely the weakest protoss in code S at the moment.
|
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37096 Posts
On December 24 2011 16:28 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 14:38 Olinimm wrote:On December 24 2011 14:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players. Can you please enlighten me as to what is so absolutely magnificent about Creatorprime? he is pretty much the first to play the current PvT double forge strategies, and PvZ with storm and blink instead of collosus, and he is credited as one of the best PvP practice partners available. his understanding of protoss is on a different level than alot of protoss's on that list, though his nerves really hurt him. as for Inca, he's done the same strategies of DT expand into two base all in, DT all in, DT expand into standard, and 2 stargate voidray, since release, and i've yet to be impressed by his ability to do so. he only really is anything special at all when he 4 gates, which is not really a good thing. he's definitely the weakest protoss in code S at the moment.
IMO, Results speak better than pure analytical statements. Until he rises out of Code B, destroys Code A, waltzes into Code S, provides decent results, I'm not convinced.
|
United Kingdom38257 Posts
|
This code S w/o Clide will feel so weird :/
|
On December 24 2011 17:21 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 16:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 24 2011 14:38 Olinimm wrote:On December 24 2011 14:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
I'd argue how yugioh played SHOULD be standard. infestors really should be a standard in all three matchups. they are so versatile and really reward skillful play and decision making.
also. how can ANYONE list those protoss and claim they are the best in the world without mentioning creator. seriously that guy is probably the only protoss that actually knows the race well. and how can you include inca, i mean YEAH alot of foreigners like him, but he's a gimmick player at it's finest, some people are fans of rainbow also, but both of them are gimmick players. Can you please enlighten me as to what is so absolutely magnificent about Creatorprime? he is pretty much the first to play the current PvT double forge strategies, and PvZ with storm and blink instead of collosus, and he is credited as one of the best PvP practice partners available. his understanding of protoss is on a different level than alot of protoss's on that list, though his nerves really hurt him. as for Inca, he's done the same strategies of DT expand into two base all in, DT all in, DT expand into standard, and 2 stargate voidray, since release, and i've yet to be impressed by his ability to do so. he only really is anything special at all when he 4 gates, which is not really a good thing. he's definitely the weakest protoss in code S at the moment. IMO, Results speak better than pure analytical statements. Until he rises out of Code B, destroys Code A, waltzes into Code S, provides decent results, I'm not convinced.
Creator's GSL stats far outshine Inca's though, INca is 25% in GSL last 6 months, while Creator is 50%. also creator is 15 years old O_O
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
