[GSL] August Up&Down Day 3 - Page 166

On September 09 2011 11:45 J.E.G. wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Saying the only protoss players that aren't in Code S are just bad, and that all 20 of the terrans in Code S are better is a ridiculous assertion with no evidence to support it.

Saying that someone is delusional for thinking Hongun, San, Anypro, and Inca are anywhere near as good as Polt, TOP, Nada, Losira, Leenock is not a valid argument.

The best indications of balance are winning percentages at the highest level of play. We got a low number of samples for August, so there are not many conclusions to be drawn yet. We have to wait for a high sample size before making judgements.

On September 09 2011 12:33 Belial88 wrote:


I don't think winning percentages for Protoss, for a single tournament, is a good indication of balance, when it's an extremely bad and small sample size that's dominated by bad players like Inca, San, Anypro, Hongun. You have MC, Genius, Alicia, and Puzzle, and they are doing very well, even in this season they did pretty well. But they are weighed by by Code B players like Anypro who should never have been in the GSL in the first place.

So yes, you need a higher sample size before making judgements. Protoss are doing okay in IEM, MLG, etc, and you have to also account for Zerg's winning the metagame by knowing how to deal with FFE and stargate, something that Protoss was using to great effect just starting 2-4 months ago.

So metagame is a large reason why Protoss are doing bad, but it's also because there's a lot of bad Protoss. You can't say Terran was OP in season 2 of the GSL, when you had players like BitbyBit and GoldenFou playing. They were horrible players, they technically performed very well, but they were riding the metagame wave and when people figured it out, they got fucking tossed out the GSL like the the trash they were. Now, Honguns 1 base void ray all ins aren't so great. Now, Anypro's FFE 2 base play isn't everything.

And while there may be some arguably bad Terran like TheBest (who has even pulled out some decent play recently), I can't imagine any other Code S player is as bad as Anypro or Hongun is. And even so, even if they are, it's not like Terran and Zerg where there's just half a dozen just extremely good, extremely high performing players.

I mean list Protoss top players:
1. MC
2. Puzzle
3. Alicia
4. Genius.

Besides MC, the rest struggle to stay in Code S, and obviously aren't as good as, say, Losira, or Polt. But that's arguable, because sure, maybe they are as good as Losira or MMA.

But then, who else is there? Literally, the 5th best protoss (which I would say is Huk, but he's a newcomer to Code S so ignoring him), is fucking bad - HongUn (54% win rate I believe). And who else is there? The next best protoss is anypro. Then you got Killer (who I believe isn't even positive win ratio). Choya.

Compare that to Terran:
1. MVp
2. Polt
3. Nada
4. MMA
5. TOP

And who's the 5+ on Terran? SCFou. Yea, HongUnPrime is on the same level as scFou /rolleyes.
And then who else is Terran? Keen, Supernova, Bomber, MKP, Clide, Yoda, Jinro, Taeja, Ganzi (fucking Ganzi!), Jakji.

And then Zerg, well, there's a lot of good zergs, and there's a lot of very average Zergs. Some of the Zergs, consistently do well. But there's a shitton of Zergs who also performed badly, just like Protoss. Many obscure Zerg fell to Code B this season, in the first season.

Of course, this is all subjective, but there's just a dozen top fucking class Terran who would take MLG anyday. Then there's lots of Zergs who'd take MLG, anyday. Then, you have MC, who coudl take an MLG, but Puzzle? Genius? Alicia? They would do well, but could they win an MLG? And then Hongun? Anypro? These guys are a joke.

On September 09 2011 12:48 Astro-Penguin wrote:


Are you actually saying that Anypro and San are bad players? Compare them to your average Code S caliber terran then I gurantee they are miles ahead in terms of skill. Simply stating that terran have better players is getting really redundant, there is no way you can know how players like HongUn or Anypro would preform as terran. MC has even stated that if he was terran he would of won GSL many times, the fact that terran can still justify there is no problem in terms of race difficulty is amazing considering Code S is now almost 70% terran. When I think of terran players I think of the vast majority to be average players much like some of the Protoss listed, but they are able to ride their Code S success with the welfare fallbacks that comes with playing terran.

Although alot of the best Protoss aren't currently in Code S there is reasoning behind that, Playing Protoss is so volatile in a playing field such as Code A Qualifiers as if you make one mistake you can just lose the game. If you've noticed the Protoss who have remained succesful in Code S are the ones who are using all ins and gimmicks because they feel its almost impossible to play standard against an evenly skilled or even worse player.

Protoss have tons of amazing players fyi,
1) MC
2) Sage
3) Puzzle
4) YongHwa
5) Alicia ( Off and On)
6) Genius (He's really consistant and I can gurantee if he had changed to terran like he was debating he would be a top tier player)
7) Huk
8) JYP
9) Naniwa
10) Sase

You keep saying metagame but you have no idea what you're talking about. The fact is that zergs know how to play against ffe and stargate. Sure. Why don't protoss know how to play against 3rd's at the 6 minute mark? They've been doing that forever and yet no one just flips a switch and it's "solved" like you say about zergs having figured out protoss openings.

Though I fear you are getting at the point where, on average, a protoss player is a moron compared to a zerg player and just el oh el can't figure things out! Which is pretty hilarious. I'm sure you'd extrapolate this as to why 20 terrans have "figured out" how to get into code S meanwhile the moronic protosses just can't seem to figure out the "metagame" of winning up+down matches and getting into code S.

You're judging "skill" based on tournament results yet fail to be able to account for bit-by-bit and protoss users who perform well in tournaments despite having odd playstles. You instead say things like "metagame metagame metagame." The result is just a high correlation between happening to play terran and being in code S and a low correlation between playing protoss and being in code S. You say Terran player X is obviously better than Protoss player Y "/rolls eyes." How can you make that discerning judgement? You cite win rate. However, winning games in tournament come from the players as well as the game they are playing. How can you isolate these variables? You cannot

You just seem to want to laugh at protoss for having only 5 players in code S and call them bad and insult their skills and game knowledge as if for every hour a protoss practices, a terran, equal in every other right, practices 5 hours and is just in general a smarter human being.

1. MVp
2. Polt
3. Nada
4. MMA
5. TOP

On September 09 2011 13:48 Belial88 wrote:


I watch Anypro play, and never take a third, and throw up tons of gateways on 2 base when his macro slips, and has horrible multitasking, and just plays all around horribly, and yes, I would say compared to the other GSL players, even compared to MLG and lower tier tournaments, he is a bad player. So is san.

I'm really surprised you think that Anypro or Hongun are anywhere near as good as MMA, Polt, SC, MKP, TOP, Nada, Keen, Ganzi, Taeja, Jakji, Happy, Yoda, Jinro, Bomber, Byun, Clide, Supernova (have I missed any Terran's yet who've been in Code S and have made at least a name for themself?). If you really think that Hongun, someone who loses to 6 pools, who banks over 1k minerals on just 2 bases before the 15 minute mark, who runs void rays into spores, who consistently does 1 base void ray all ins and is now figured out just like bitbybit, or Anypro, who makes over 10 gateways on 1 base consistently (along with robo and his tech opening) because his macro is so shitty, and doesn't know what a third is, are anywhere near the league of play as Bomber or SC (not top 5 terrans, basically), then I can't really argue with you, because that's the basis of my whole argument.

And what Terran do you think are bad? Maybe a few of the FOU Terrans? Because the top 15 Terrans are all pretty fucking beast, and any one of them could probably easily take MLG. Sure, some of the Terran are bad, but the middle of the road Terrans, like Byun, are pretty fucking good, still. Anypro and Hongun, hell, I'd play them for money.



Protoss did know how to play against thirds, they did it by opening on 1 base first, which is enough pressure to deny Zerg's third. A 3 gate sentry expand, for example, can allow pressure to kill even with sentry/zealot, and denies a third while taking their natural. Then, Protoss started to FFE almost exclusively, and they did pretty good with it. Then, you saw Losira and Nestea innovate a new style against FFE where they took a fast third, and didn't get lair until around 100+ supply and only have 2 gas and have 1/1/1.

So yea, it kinda was a switch. Suddenly, Nestea and every other Zerg didn't try to do a hydra timing attack or tech very hard on 2 base, instead they took a super fast third starting about a month ago. This was a new build, that was never done before, and now every Zerg waits until at least 70 supply to even start lair against FFE.

I'm not saying every Protoss player is a moron. MC, ALicia, Genius, Puzzle are great P. We have lots of good foreigner P like Socke (who's ZvP is amazingly brilliant yet underappreciated), Naniwa, Huk, and so on. But anypro, hongun, san, choya? Yea, I wouldn't cringe from saying they play like idiots.

But MC, Alicia, Genius, Puzzle, and every other Protoss, is going FFE and going with stargate openings, and Zerg have found a way to come out extremely far ahead when Protoss assumed that these were safe builds that didn't hurt themselves economically, that Zerg's can still take a third against, and that Zerg can hold any 2 base timing from FFE on hatch tech.

ZvP has been absolutely revolutionized by Nestea's super fast third vs FFE, there was even that game last GSL where Nestea lost over 20 drones against a FFE Stargate... and then only had 87 drones left. He proceeded to roflstomp the Protoss who just did a simple single stargate opening and played very normal and 'safe', supposedly.

I say that SC is a league ahead of Hongun, the Protoss with the 4th best win rate, because he's a shitty player who relies on 1 base or 2 base all-ins, never takes a third, macros like a crap, stockpiles money, and loses to 6 pool in a macro game. It's obvious. And I'm citing performance, not necessarily win rate.

You seem to think I think every Protoss is the same, but I'm making a very distinct argument here:

It's about the players. And when you look at the Protoss players, a lot of them suck. Puzzle, Alicia, MC, Genius, are quite frankly the only good established P players (you have maybe 1 or 2 like JYP who is an up and comer, but he is still new and has issues because of that), and they do quite well.

MC got to the RO16 in Code S. Huk lost in a pvp. Genius lost to July once, but otherwise crushed in group play (to a 1 base all-in from July that was a coinflip, that he should have scouted, but got caught off guard by a strange build, ). Alicia did well enough in Code S, but lost to Leenock when his DTs failed to do absolutely anything - it was GG there, but then Leenock responded to blink with infestors, perfectly.

It's not as dramatic as it's being made out to be.

On September 09 2011 13:54 Belial88 wrote:
TLDR: ZvP has been absolutely revolutionized by Nestea's fast third, 100+ supply lair as a 'counter' to FFE and stargate play, Zerg now know how to handle stargate play better and scout against it. The FFE used to be a good build, but as the metagame has changed, it is now a bad build, and FFE stargate is not a good enough harass to do enough damage against a good Zerg since they can just drone up against it.

TvP has been revolutionized by 111. It's a new build, Protoss don't know how to handle it yet, or to scout against it, but in 3 months, we will see either Protoss crush it, or we'll know if it's imbalanced. Protoss are still winning against 111, like Genius, and MC, so it's questionable if it's OP if Protoss can still beat it. Now you know what Zerg feels like in almost every game.

And then, a lot of Protoss players are just bad. Not all of them - Alicia, MC, Puzzle, Genius are good, and did pretty good this season but badly in the up/down. But Anypro, VanVanth, Treme, Hongun, Inca are going to where they fucking deserve. JYP did okay, but in a tight up/down tiebreaker barely didn't make it into Code S.

On September 09 2011 13:56 babylon wrote:
The fact that you just said Bomber wasn't a top five Terran really says something about your ability to judge players. *facepalm*

I mean, if your top five is the following:


Yeah .... no.

On September 09 2011 14:05 Belial88 wrote:


Bomber hasn't really performed as consistently. But my argument has nothing to do with how the order of the top 5 is. Like jesus christ, are you ignoring my arguments and focusing on what order I put the best Terrans? It has nothing to do with what order they are in, it's that the top 15 Terrans are all fucking beastly, whether you think TOP or Bomber is top or not is irrelevant, they are both not #1, whereas every Protoss besides MC is just not even in the same league as TOP or Bomber.

And even if you do think Alicia or Genius are better than TOP (which actually isn't that far of a stretch), there's no argument that SC, MKP, MMA, Ganzi, Taeja, are worse players than them, and undoutedly, at least one of those players is not the #5 or better Terran.

And then, a lot of Protoss players are just bad. Not all of them - Alicia, MC, Puzzle, Genius are good, and did pretty good this season

On September 09 2011 14:05 Belial88 wrote:


Bomber hasn't really performed as consistently. But my argument has nothing to do with how the order of the top 5 is. Like jesus christ, are you ignoring my arguments and focusing on what order I put the best Terrans? It has nothing to do with what order they are in, it's that the top 15 Terrans are all fucking beastly, whether you think TOP or Bomber is top or not is irrelevant, they are both not #1, whereas every Protoss besides MC is just not even in the same league as TOP or Bomber.

And even if you do think Alicia or Genius are better than TOP (which actually isn't that far of a stretch), there's no argument that SC, MKP, MMA, Ganzi, Taeja, are worse players than them, and undoutedly, at least one of those players is not the #5 or better Terran.

Are you seriously telling me 30 terrans or so are just coincidentally superior to their protoss counterparts, that it's a complete coincidence that 20 of the top 32 players picked terran? That no protoss is even a competitor to win code s? I find it far more likely that something about the protoss race is too limiting, and inferior compared to the other races. And how is it not as bad as people make it out to be? Protoss is a joke in code s, so much so we're wondering if a single protoss will make it to ro16.

On September 09 2011 14:19 Belial88 wrote:


Not 30, but the top 15, yes. MMA is not even the best Terran in the world, like at all, but when i watch his amazing multitasking and pressure, his decision making, his crisp macro, then yea, it's pretty obvious that he's a way better player than Genius, much less Hongun or Anypro or San or Treme or JYP. I watch Nestea struggle against SC in a BO5 on the last set, and yea, it's pretty fucking obvious that he's just a world above Genius or Alicia, much less Choya or VanVanth or Tassadar or the legions of just bad Protoss who don't deserve to be Code S, arguably if not Code A.

I mean, in no particular order, in not exact the right place, you have the best Protoss:

1. MC (Who is clearly on the same league as MVP and Nestea)
2. Puzzle (A damn Good Protoss, but I dont think he's on the same league as MC, Nestea, MVP, or SC)
3. Genius
4. Alicia (inconsistent)

And then that's where shit goes really downhill, realyl fast for Protoss, with the next best players (results wise) being:
5. Hongun (finally his 1 base void ray all in is being figured out, bye bitbybit, he loses to 6 pools in macro games)
6. Anypro (what's a third base? Fuck im banking 1k minerals at the 10 minute mark, here I'll make 10 more gates to my 6 gate robo build, just like I practiced!)
7. Inca (Damn, DTs didnt work. I'll do it 4 more times in a row! More void ray all ins and double stargate all ins)

And the rest?
VanVanth, Treme, JYP, Choya, Tassadar, Legalmind... these guys are absolute trash (or are newcomers who just broke into the GSL, ie JYP).

Now who's #4 Terran? Who's #8? I don't know, it doesn't matter. But let's just rattle off a few Terrans,
1. MVP
- Polt
- SC
- MMA
- Nada
- Bomber
- Keen
- Ganzi
- Taeja
- Ryung
- Byun
- TOP
- MKP

Did I miss any Terrans? Because yes, TheBestFoU is fucking terribad. But these Terrans are all fucking amazing, and could easily win MLG (if they were the only korean that is). And all of these Terrans, are way better than all the Protoss worse than #4. All of these players are 10 times the player that Hongun is, and it's obvious with their drops, their macro, how they keep money low, how they at least take a third base, how they not have to all-in so much, and it's very, very possible that these guys are better than the Protoss who aren't #1 (Genius, Alicia, Puzzle).

However, MC is quite possibly better than all of these guys. He's a Protoss player who's great, but most important, he's a great player. And just like MC, these Terrans are amazing players. .If these guys were Zerg or Protoss, they would be fucking winning GSLs and being fucking bosses all the same.

Are you telling me that if you didn't switch to Zerg, or Terran, or Protoss, that you couldn't make it back into Masters, at least? Because maybe your playstyle fits your race right now, but you can't tell me that if MMA switched to Protoss that he'd miss forcefields, lose to 6 pool, and all-in so often.

On September 09 2011 14:07 Olinim wrote:

Even though that sentence isn't completely true, don't you find that odd? What are the fucking chances in a balanced game only 1 protoss player has been capable, for a year since release. What does that tell you about the race?

On September 09 2011 14:22 Belial88 wrote:
I mean maybe Terran is OP. Maybe TvP is broken. I'm a Zerg, and I've already said I don't pretend to understand TvP. But when a race makes a new build, and makes a huge metagame shift that they can do, as Tyler said "even when the opponent knows it's coming and it's still amazing" (to paraphrase), then the other race is going to drastically and dramatically lose games, until the metagame balances out again. You didn't see people saying Terran was OP when Terran was rocking GSL S2 with 2 rax SCV all-ins. But it certainly resulted in Z falling out of the GSL like flies.

But my point is that a large reason a lot of Protoss are falling out of the GSL, is not because of imbalance (which as I said, could exist in the TvP matchup, just not in ZvP), but because of both bad players and the metagame.

Not every Protoss is bad, MC and Genius are great and didn't do bad this season. But Hongun, Anypro, Zanzanth... they are horrible, they don't deserve to be in Code S at all. And the metagame has dramatically changed in ZvP, with zergs basically knowing how to autowin against FFE and stargate.

And hell, maybe even Hongun lost due to imbalance (rofl 6 pool is so imba). But he was a bad player, and it was about time he fell out of Code S.