[GSL] August Up&Down Day 3 - Page 167

On September 09 2011 14:27 Belial88 wrote:
^ Because a lot of people who played Terran in BW switched to SC2, particularly washed up bonjwas like Boxer and Nada. Because this is the first game of 3, and Terran is the first race to be fully fleshed out, and thus is the most developed and most attractive.

Because Protoss is a boring race to play. If you're going down the route that Terran is better than Protoss because more good players play Terran, than I could just as easily say that Zerg is UP and Terran is OP in ZvP because they have so many options as well.

On September 09 2011 14:13 babylon wrote:

I'm calling your judgment of players' skills into question because you apparently can't even recognize that NaDa is mid-tier Code S at best; his only good match-up is TvT, while he drops over dead versus any decent Zerg or Protoss player (if he doesn't 1/1/1). MMA also definitely does not belong in the top five at all, since the only match-up he does consistently well at is TvZ.

If you can't recognize that, then I don't see how or why I should trust your judgment on the skills of any other player in the GSL.

Also, San was one of the best macro Protosses out there. Calling him bad is laughable.

On September 09 2011 14:27 Belial88 wrote:
Because a lot of people who played Terran in BW switched to SC2, particularly washed up bonjwas like Boxer and Nada. Because this is the first game of 3, and Terran is the first race to be fully fleshed out, and thus is the most developed and most attractive.

Because Protoss is a boring race to play. If you're going down the route that Terran is better than Protoss because more good players play Terran, than I could just as easily say that Zerg is UP and Terran is OP in ZvP because they have so many options as well.

To the above tier post... just look at how horrible the Tier 1+ Protoss are as players (for the most part, a few exceptions like foreigners that don't really count because they are too new in the GSL), and compare that to the Terrans. Even the T1 Terrans are fucking beastly.

And the T1+ Zerg aren't really that great. I'd actually change the tier list like this:

Terran Tier 0
MVP

Terran Tier 1
MMA
sc
Polt
Puma


Tier 2
Bomber
MKP
Ganzi
Taeja
Ryung
TOP
Nada

Tier3
Jakji
Supernova
Boxer
Clide
Byun
Alive

Wow that's a lot of pretty damn good terrans. I'm sure I'm missing some too. Now lets look at how many I can come up with for other races.

Protoss

Tier 0
MC

Tier 1
Alica
Puzzle
Genius

Tier 2
JYP
Killer

Tier 3
Anypro
San
Hongun
Tassadar
VanVanth
Choya

Zerg

Tier 0
Nestea

Tier 1
Losira

Tier 2
Leenock
July
Coca
DRG

There's about 5-6 Zerg every season who just crush face. Right now, Nestea, Losira are just invincible. Leenock, July, and DRG are extremely, extremely solid. Kind of like Protoss though, there's some good players, and the rest are pretty bad. Unlike Protoss, there's more than 1 Zerg who's a fucking beast, and there's more than 4 Protoss who are very good, and on top of that, they are much more consistent.

Look at the Protoss tier list, and any P tier3 is fucking trash, tier 1 and 2 just has 5 Protoss who perform inconsistently, may be extremely new and just broke out into the GSL. But there's just not many good Protoss, at all.

You put Jjakji in the same tier as Vanvanth and choya? I'm not even gonna mention that you think sC is higher than Bomber.

On September 09 2011 14:42 mrbamboo wrote:



You put Jjakji in the same tier as Vanvanth and choya? I'm not even gonna mention that you think sC is higher than Bomber.

On September 09 2011 14:37 oxxo wrote:


Chill. Out of the 'top' Terrans no one is clearly above the others except for Mvp.

And San is bad. He did well when he had KA and people weren't used to templar play. That's it.

On September 09 2011 14:47 Belial88 wrote:
^ I haven't told people how to react to the current state of PvT... I've talked only about PvZ.

I'm also talking about why Protoss fell out of the GSL so hard this season. While TvP may be a large part of it, looking over who got knocked out and how, it's obvious that they lost in the metagame against Zerg by losing with FFE and stargate, in PvP, and that many of the Protoss are just bad.

Sure, maybe TvP is broken. I'm not commenting on it. What I am commenting, is that:
1. The ZvP metagame has been revolutionized by a fast third to 'counter' FFE and how to deal with stargate.
2. That besides 5 Protoss, they are just bad players
3. That of those 5 Protoss:
- MC could have lost to TvP imbalance
- Huk went to RO4 to lose to MVP (best player in the world?
- Genius Lost to a finalist (could be imbalance in TvP)
- Alicia lost to Zerg and Terran (fail DT in ZvP)
- Puzzle TvP

Is Terran broken? Maybe. Did that contribute to why Protoss fell out of GSL? Maybe. But a large number of the Protoss who fell out, were bad (even if they lost due to imbalance). And the ones that lost to Zerg, lost because they were outplayed and because of the metagame, not imbalance.

I'm here to speak on the behalf of all Zerg, and say that ZvP is definitely not broken in favor of Zerg. And in this GSL, Zerg beat Protoss by taking advantage against stargate and FFE openings, not with infestors, or mass roach, or anything else 'broken'.

On September 09 2011 14:53 Belial88 wrote:
Personally, I think MMA and SC are better than bomber. But either way, it's irrelevant to my argument. They are both fucking awesome players better than Protoss #5+, and they are quite possibly better than every Protoss except MC (even then, you could maybe say MMA is better, he did win MLG and MC didnt), and on top of that, they aren't even the best Terran players.

And yea, 3 gate expand is a pretty fucking good build. It was never outdated by the metagame, it was never hard countered, Protoss just got greedy and went for FFE, and Zerg realized they could abuse it and own it. I don't know what you think is so bad about 3 gate expand, it automatically denies a fast third, and keeps you on even bases with Zerg. There's also nexus first and 1 gate expand.

On September 09 2011 14:55 Olinim wrote:

Just no. It IS completely outdated hence why it's never used. It puts you too far behind economically.

On September 09 2011 14:57 babylon wrote:

Don't you love it when a Zerg player gives you advice on how to play your own race?

On September 09 2011 14:53 Belial88 wrote:
Personally, I think MMA and SC are better than bomber. But either way, it's irrelevant to my argument. They are both fucking awesome players better than Protoss #5+, and they are quite possibly better than every Protoss except MC (even then, you could maybe say MMA is better, he did win MLG and MC didnt), and on top of that, they aren't even the best Terran players.

And yea, 3 gate expand is a pretty fucking good build. It was never outdated by the metagame, it was never hard countered, Protoss just got greedy and went for FFE, and Zerg realized they could abuse it and own it. I don't know what you think is so bad about 3 gate expand, it automatically denies a fast third, and keeps you on even bases with Zerg. There's also nexus first and 1 gate expand.

Didn't you hear that no good players play protoss? I heard it's now a prerequisite to get a lobotomy before playing the race. Explains why they are all so bad, of course he knows better than MC about PvZ after that!

On September 09 2011 15:06 Astro-Penguin wrote:


Honestly Protoss like Sage, YongHwa, Puzzle, JYP, Hero, Naniwa, Genius and even lesser known Protoss such as Seed and Sase are easilly just as good as MMA and SC (Some more then others). The Code S Protoss I'll admit are definently not the top tier Protoss by any means but that dosen't change the fact that are top players like MC, Genius and Puzzle who are in Code S are still losing. JYPS games today were amazing and revolutionary its stupid to see him lose vs terran each time because of one mistake in comparision to the the terrans vast amounts of mistakes and blind build orders.

Most of the other Protoss I listed are struggling to qualify for Code S/A for the sole fact of how volatile Protoss is. When was the last time we heard about some really good hyped up Terran having trouble making his way to Code A/S? Then take a look at zerg and Protoss and we see top tier players such as Sage, DRG, YongHwa, and etc struggling to even qualify for Code A let alone Code S. Most of the Protoss we have been seeing in Code S and Code A are simply playing a very cheesey all in style rather then a macro style as it is much easier and even more reliable then a safe macro style unless your a machine who dosen't make any mistakes.

And the reason Protoss users are doing FFE are because most of the maps favor it over 3 Gate expand, it has nothing to do with greed. 3 Gate expand works decently yes, but the problem is your still very far behind from a good zerg who will drone and react to what your doing and counter it perfectly. Also alot of zerg have been taking relatively quick third bases vs this 3 Gate Expand style as even in this scenario they can remain uncontested as long as they are playing their cards right. 3 Gate Expand/1 Gate Expand is not outdated by the metagame by any means but zergs have simply gotten better with larva injects, scouting, reacting, and etc, and because of this the old tricks of us Protoss are much less effective, and unfortaunley Protoss dosen't seem to have to many options other then Warp Prisms which will hopely usher in a fresh new outlook for PvZ and PvT.

On September 09 2011 15:09 Belial88 wrote:
I got to Master with Random, then switched to Zerg.

I have never seen someone get outmacrod going 3 gate sentry expand. I have seen it many times with FFE. With 3 gate sentry expand you automatically deny the third, and you can put pressure which can really hurt zerg. If you think it's a bad build, then there's also 1 gate sentry expand, which is more economic and denies zerg's third.



I've repeatedly said that Genius, MC, Huk, Alicia, and Puzzle are great players. I've also said that Killer and JYP aren't bad. Otherwise, I've said that the rest are pretty fucking trash, like Choya, Anypro, Hongun.

Or you can just keep trolling. Why are you even posting if you're just going to troll? It's quite fucking irritating, you may disagree with what I'm saying but I'm giving an argument. Explain why you disagree with me, but you don't have to be a fucking asshole. Get it?

On September 09 2011 14:53 Belial88 wrote:
Personally, I think MMA and SC are better than bomber. But either way, it's irrelevant to my argument. They are both fucking awesome players better than Protoss #5+, and they are quite possibly better than every Protoss except MC (even then, you could maybe say MMA is better, he did win MLG and MC didnt), and on top of that, they aren't even the best Terran players.

And yea, 3 gate expand is a pretty fucking good build. It was never outdated by the metagame, it was never hard countered, Protoss just got greedy and went for FFE, and Zerg realized they could abuse it and own it. I don't know what you think is so bad about 3 gate expand, it automatically denies a fast third, and keeps you on even bases with Zerg. There's also nexus first and 1 gate expand.

On September 09 2011 06:19 tree.hugger wrote:
I cannot understand the argument made by some posters that terran players are just better in general. That twenty of the top thirty two players that switched to Sc2 would've picked terran is an absurd argument to make, and one that's impossible to prove or even provide evidence for. Many mediocre BW players have switched, and they play a bunch of different races. This is a silly, unprovable, and useless argument to spend more time refuting.

On September 09 2011 15:15 Belial88 wrote:
It sounds like we agree completely, for the large part, as you even said the Code S players weren't the best. You mentioned TvP issues, and that's not what I am talking about. TvP could very well be broken, and it could definitely be why a lot of the best Protoss fell out of Code S. MC, Genius, Huk, and other protoss lost to Terrans.

But a lot of Protoss lost to Zergs, because they got outplayed, not imbalance,and a lot of Protoss lost to Terrans who were just better players. That doesn't mean imbalance wasn't a factor, but it probably would've happened anyways.

On September 09 2011 15:33 babylon wrote:

Jesus Christ, why didn't you say this in the beginning? It would've saved me so much trouble.

Okay, some thoughts/opinions:
- PvZ is undergoing a metagame shift that currently favors Zerg.
- PvT is completely imbalanced due to 1/1/1. (And possibly the ghost, but let's not talk about that.)
- Unfortunately, this PvZ metagame shift and the resurgence of 1/1/1 in PvT has coincided and caused a huge migration of Protoss out of Code S while also keeping some very good Protoss players in Code B.
- ... thank god we've got a new influx of them coming in. Yay for Protoss- and Zerg-favored maps during qualifiers!