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+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 12:33 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:45 J.E.G. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 11:24 Belial88 wrote:
Here, let me sum it up for you:
- Didn't complain about a Protoss dropping out of Code S due to a PvP (sangho)
- Said you dont have to be a condescending asshole with your 'there goes your credibility' comment that ignored my points
- Saying 111 might be OP, but it's definitely too early to tell, and that not every TvP this season used 111
- JYP, a relative newcomer, losing to a 2 time code s semifinalist and highly performing player in MKP in an extremely close tiebreaker in the up and down matches
- Saying JYP losing to MKP is not the best way to say "Protoss is broken"
It's not hard to understand. The best Protoss players, besides MC, Huk, Alicia, and Puzzle, are all really, really bad, and deserve to be in Code A, if not Code B. MC, Huk, Alicia, and Puzzle, are all performing very well, only falling in PvP, against each other, or doing very well in this tournament except losing in the up/down barely.
You complain that all the Protoss is knocked out of the GSL and that's a sign of problems, I say no, it's because of dramatic shifts in the metagame where Zerg is suddenly owning and coming out ahead of what Protoss thought was safe (stargate, DT, FFE), 111, and because so many of them are just bad. MC, Huk, Alicia, and Puzzle are not doing bad by any means, and if you are trying to say that Hongun, San, Anypro, Inca, are anywhere near as good as Polt, TOP, Nada, Losira, Leenock, then your delusional. Saying the only protoss players that aren't in Code S are just bad, and that all 20 of the terrans in Code S are better is a ridiculous assertion with no evidence to support it. Saying that someone is delusional for thinking Hongun, San, Anypro, and Inca are anywhere near as good as Polt, TOP, Nada, Losira, Leenock is not a valid argument. The best indications of balance are winning percentages at the highest level of play. We got a low number of samples for August, so there are not many conclusions to be drawn yet. We have to wait for a high sample size before making judgements. I don't think winning percentages for Protoss, for a single tournament, is a good indication of balance, when it's an extremely bad and small sample size that's dominated by bad players like Inca, San, Anypro, Hongun. You have MC, Genius, Alicia, and Puzzle, and they are doing very well, even in this season they did pretty well. But they are weighed by by Code B players like Anypro who should never have been in the GSL in the first place. So yes, you need a higher sample size before making judgements. Protoss are doing okay in IEM, MLG, etc, and you have to also account for Zerg's winning the metagame by knowing how to deal with FFE and stargate, something that Protoss was using to great effect just starting 2-4 months ago. So metagame is a large reason why Protoss are doing bad, but it's also because there's a lot of bad Protoss. You can't say Terran was OP in season 2 of the GSL, when you had players like BitbyBit and GoldenFou playing. They were horrible players, they technically performed very well, but they were riding the metagame wave and when people figured it out, they got fucking tossed out the GSL like the the trash they were. Now, Honguns 1 base void ray all ins aren't so great. Now, Anypro's FFE 2 base play isn't everything. And while there may be some arguably bad Terran like TheBest (who has even pulled out some decent play recently), I can't imagine any other Code S player is as bad as Anypro or Hongun is. And even so, even if they are, it's not like Terran and Zerg where there's just half a dozen just extremely good, extremely high performing players. I mean list Protoss top players: 1. MC 2. Puzzle 3. Alicia 4. Genius. Besides MC, the rest struggle to stay in Code S, and obviously aren't as good as, say, Losira, or Polt. But that's arguable, because sure, maybe they are as good as Losira or MMA. But then, who else is there? Literally, the 5th best protoss (which I would say is Huk, but he's a newcomer to Code S so ignoring him), is fucking bad - HongUn (54% win rate I believe). And who else is there? The next best protoss is anypro. Then you got Killer (who I believe isn't even positive win ratio). Choya. Compare that to Terran: 1. MVp 2. Polt 3. Nada 4. MMA 5. TOP And who's the 5+ on Terran? SCFou. Yea, HongUnPrime is on the same level as scFou /rolleyes. And then who else is Terran? Keen, Supernova, Bomber, MKP, Clide, Yoda, Jinro, Taeja, Ganzi (fucking Ganzi!), Jakji. And then Zerg, well, there's a lot of good zergs, and there's a lot of very average Zergs. Some of the Zergs, consistently do well. But there's a shitton of Zergs who also performed badly, just like Protoss. Many obscure Zerg fell to Code B this season, in the first season. Of course, this is all subjective, but there's just a dozen top fucking class Terran who would take MLG anyday. Then there's lots of Zergs who'd take MLG, anyday. Then, you have MC, who coudl take an MLG, but Puzzle? Genius? Alicia? They would do well, but could they win an MLG? And then Hongun? Anypro? These guys are a joke.
Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun.
I do agree with you that the problem is in the metagame, it baffles me to see so many toss's still going FFE when zerg just laughs and build order wins (seemingly).
1-1-1 may be a different story, but it's too early to tell. I'd really like to see some hallu+warp prism play (flank with one immo/2 zealots and zealot bomb while hallucinating immo's in front to take marine focus fire) although this is pure theorycraft ^^
EDIT: finally caught up on the thread. one more point is that three gate sentry is not quite hard countered, but close to it be losira timing attack, thats the whole reason p started going FFE to begin with. It does enough damage to either go all-in and kill or takes out enough army/probes to safely get a third up and out macro the protoss. I think the best way to handle this is to do the delay'd second gas 3G expo. I don't know why i don't see this in pro-level matches.... slightly slower expo but potential for a very strong timing attack if z thinks its a sentry expand and goes for fast third. It also rofl stomps losira timing attack and can defend a quick toss third.
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Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun.
It's not so much about if the 5-10th are better or worse than this or that, it's that the 5+ protosses that are prominent in the GSL (as there is players like Sage, Yongwha, etc that are good P that just haven't broken in due to inconsistent play and not establishing themselves as salaried players within the safe confines of being Code S) are just bad players. It's not about the races, it's that players like Hongun are just horrible, and got to their spot through gimmicky builds.
Just like the first few seasons of the GSL were just dominated by 1 base play (most prominently, 2 rax scv all-in), and when players learned 2 bases is better than one, these RO4 (even finalists, like Rain before he suddenly changed into a decent player) players suddenly dissapeared like the trash layers they were. Right now the GSL is largely about 2-3 bases, and Zerg are now knowing how to handle 2 base allins, and Protoss has to make 3 bases to win or stay competitive, and so we'll see players like Anypro and Hongun and Choya, who just FFE then 2 base to win, will dissapear.
There's lots of amazing Terrans right now, they are good players, and that's a reason why there is so many in the GSL. This largely has a lot to do with Terran just being the most developed (which you can arguably say is OP, but it's not necessarily imbalanced), but it also has to do with the metagame just fucking Protoss in the ass (although it had helped them immensely before this month).
of course, T may be OP, but there's no denying that anypro, hongun, treme, tassadar, vanvanth, are just bad, bad players, regardless of what race they played. Genius, Alicia, Huk, MC, Puzzle, may have lost to imbalance, but they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP.
Regardless of imbalance existing or not, the low numbers of Protoss players to begin with, coupled with the metagame shifting and the low skill of the few Protoss players in the GSL, it was pretty much inevitable that the results occured as they did.
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Are people putting Bomber as tier 2/3 Terran in korea? You got to be fucking kidding. If MVP is Tier 0, Bomber could as well be Tier 0 or at least Tier 1. The kids is sick, and seeing the MMA being so overrated (claiming that he is better than Bomber/Polt/Top and possibly even with MVP)from Americans who only follow MLG is disgusting as always.
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On September 09 2011 17:16 Huragius wrote:
Are people putting Bomber as tier 2/3 Terran in korea? You got to be fucking kidding. If MVP is Tier 0, Bomber could as well be Tier 0 or at least Tier 1. The kids is sick, and seeing the MMA being so overrated (claiming that he is better than Bomber/Polt/Top and possibly even with MVP)from Americans who only follow MLG is disgusting as always.
I can't believe all the "Americans who only follow MLG" completely missed Bomber dominating the most recent MLG.
MMA went 14-3 in the GSTL Feb-May, practically carrying Slayers to 2 GSTL championships. He also put a stop to DRG's monster killing spree, even for a just moment.
Noone is saying Bomber isn't good, but his GSL results isn't as spectacular.
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On September 09 2011 17:16 Huragius wrote:
Are people putting Bomber as tier 2/3 Terran in korea? You got to be fucking kidding. If MVP is Tier 0, Bomber could as well be Tier 0 or at least Tier 1. The kids is sick, and seeing the MMA being so overrated (claiming that he is better than Bomber/Polt/Top and possibly even with MVP)from Americans who only follow MLG is disgusting as always.
Do you really think disgusting is the appropriate word to use there? Sheesh.
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In other news, some hilarious shit on PlayXP's SC2 news section:
"Kong" MKP advances to code S with 2W/2L and 2nd in the group![[image loading]](http://pocket.playxp.com/thumbs/655x/1241039?98d1659d47a333e5) 2nd in his group, he is the 20th Terran to join the code S roster this season!After a bad start with 2 losses, MarineKingPrime.We turned things around with 2 straight wins to force a tie-break situation, and then 2 more straight wins to place 2nd in his group, and snatch the 20th Terran spot in the upcoming code S tournament.
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of course, T may be OP, but there's no denying that anypro, hongun, treme, tassadar, vanvanth, are just bad, bad players, regardless of what race they played. Genius, Alicia, Huk, MC, Puzzle, may have lost to imbalance, but they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP.
You obviously have a ridiculous bias to call those players bad, vanvanth I would agree, but Tassadar? If Vanvanths is bad then what do you call players like Ganzi who get completely outplayed by someone like Vanvanths in macro games in PvT...who has a 20% something winrate in PvT. You cannot say that incredibly mediocre Terrans like alive, Ensanre, Virus,etc are better than player like Tassadar, HongUn, etc
I do agree that the top of end Terran that there are more skilled players (Bomer, MMA,MVP,etc), but just like Artosis siad, the rest of the Terran players aren't better than Zerg/Protoss, that is completely bullshit
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On September 09 2011 17:04 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun. they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP.
Lol, what a bulshit - metagame shift.
Protoss started losing right and left when WG got nerfed, infestor got buffed and ghosts became massable. Plain and simple. There is no metagame shift. Zerg and Terran didn't figure out anything new.
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I found it amusing many people thousands miles away make argument that Korean top Terran players somehow superior than top Protosses, when everybody in Korea (yes, even terran players) laughing at David Kim saying it for the first time.
It's also a bit insulting remark to those very talented and hard working protoss players, like MC, Puzzle, JYP and others.
As for last night's game between JYP and Taeja, unlike you people from US or Europe we Korean viewers were well informed by narrators about Taeja's 3rd and 4th bases, but still nobody says Taeja won because he outplayed JYP, no, even terran players doesn't say that way.
Because we all know Protoss just can't expand that way, that safe like Terran does.
Somebody in PlayXP nicely put, "Protoss only can expand when Terran gives permission."
The thing is, the imbalance problem was not this bad a few months back.
It's not coincident Zerg's "metagame" and Terran's "1-1-1" became serious problems to Protoss after Warp Gate nerf.
In fact Zerg's metagame and Terran's 1-1-1 are nothing new, but suddenly Protoss can't find an answer after losing means to demoralize them with early push.
And same goes to EMP being ultimate nemesis to Protoss after losing Amulet.
Can't agree?
Here is the number of TZPs in Code S.
Anybody not blind should notice the pattern.
GSL T - Z - P
May 14 - 8 - 10
Jul 15 - 8 - 9
Aug 17 - 7 - 8
Oct 20 - 7 - 5
Do you honestly believe Terran players suddenly became superior and Protosses somehow became retarded over this period of time?
No it's not.
Blizzard just patched wrong.
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On September 09 2011 19:52 Orcinus33ft wrote:
The thing is, the imbalance problem was not this bad a few months back.
It's not coincident Zerg's "metagame" and Terran's "1-1-1" became serious problems to Protoss after Warp Gate nerf.
In fact Zerg's metagame and Terran's 1-1-1 are nothing new, but suddenly Protoss can't find an answer after losing means to demoralize them with early push.
And same goes to EMP being ultimate nemesis to Protoss after losing Amulet.
So true. As a terran player, I was always scared of 4gate and had to play more conservatively but with the warpgate nerf, expanding or teching quickly is not much of a concern.
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I'm not sure how you all can say MC hasn't fallen off, and compare him to MVP and Nestea. They've both won multiple GSLs, but when's the last one MC has won? He's gotten a bit cold, and as a result has fallen out of code S. I'm not sure why everyone thinks he's still performing as good as he used to.
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On September 09 2011 18:55 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:04 Belial88 wrote:Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun. they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP. Lol, what a bulshit - metagame shift. Protoss started losing right and left when WG got nerfed, infestor got buffed and ghosts became massable. Plain and simple. There is no metagame shift. Zerg and Terran didn't figure out anything new.
Dude.... show me a single GSL game where infestors were why Protoss won. There was Leenock vs Alicia, but Alicia had opened DTs and Leenock had already secured a third.
Quit with the balance whine, the reason Zerg have been stomping is taking a fast third and holding off stargate. Not a single third was cancelled, not a single hatch was killed, nevermore than 4 drones or 1 queen was ever killed by any Protoss player this season by stargate.
I'm not sure how you all can say MC hasn't fallen off, and compare him to MVP and Nestea. They've both won multiple GSLs, but when's the last one MC has won? He's gotten a bit cold, and as a result has fallen out of code S. I'm not sure why everyone thinks he's still performing as good as he used to.
His stargate and risky warpgate play has been figured out, but he's been doing quite well in general. He went to finals in IEM, tore up MLG, and still wins games at the GSL. Nada and July went through slumps of going to Code B, MC is still very competitive.
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On September 10 2011 02:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:55 bokeevboke wrote:On September 09 2011 17:04 Belial88 wrote:Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun. they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP. Lol, what a bulshit - metagame shift. Protoss started losing right and left when WG got nerfed, infestor got buffed and ghosts became massable. Plain and simple. There is no metagame shift. Zerg and Terran didn't figure out anything new. Dude.... show me a single GSL game where infestors were why Protoss won. There was Leenock vs Alicia, but Alicia had opened DTs and Leenock had already secured a third. Quit with the balance whine, the reason Zerg have been stomping is taking a fast third and holding off stargate. Not a single third was cancelled, not a single hatch was killed, nevermore than 4 drones or 1 queen was ever killed by any Protoss player this season by stargate.
Yes, because with the spore crawler decreased burrow time, warpgate nerfs, and now even blink stalker nerf, it's basically impossible to pressure a zerg third without going all in or investing too heavily into something. This is what you always see in PvZ, if there was a safe reliable option that was economically reasonable, protoss would be using it.
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I won't lie, I want to see some godawful, risky Protoss strategies work in the GSL, where players double-expand and put themselves in danger of losing for a huge timing window but as soon as that window's over, roll over the opponent.
After all, it's how FD won GSL1. Behind? No problem! Just throw down a few expansions and hope to god you don't die.
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On September 10 2011 02:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:55 bokeevboke wrote:On September 09 2011 17:04 Belial88 wrote:Well, the question isn't whether the 5th best protoss is better or worse than the 5th best terran, its whether the 5th-10th best protoss's are better than the 10-20th best terrans that are in Code S (not counting the 21st-w/e rank terran that are in code A and so forth) which is a trickier situation to analyze. I think HongUn, although not a great player, is better than whoever you want to rank as 20th best terran. Same goes for Huk or Hero, who are both probably much better than hongun. they also lost due to the metagame shifts going on in ZvP and TvP. Lol, what a bulshit - metagame shift. Protoss started losing right and left when WG got nerfed, infestor got buffed and ghosts became massable. Plain and simple. There is no metagame shift. Zerg and Terran didn't figure out anything new. Dude.... show me a single GSL game where infestors were why Protoss won. There was Leenock vs Alicia, but Alicia had opened DTs and Leenock had already secured a third. Quit with the balance whine, the reason Zerg have been stomping is taking a fast third and holding off stargate. Not a single third was cancelled, not a single hatch was killed, nevermore than 4 drones or 1 queen was ever killed by any Protoss player this season by stargate. Show nested quote +I'm not sure how you all can say MC hasn't fallen off, and compare him to MVP and Nestea. They've both won multiple GSLs, but when's the last one MC has won? He's gotten a bit cold, and as a result has fallen out of code S. I'm not sure why everyone thinks he's still performing as good as he used to. His stargate and risky warpgate play has been figured out, but he's been doing quite well in general. He went to finals in IEM, tore up MLG, and still wins games at the GSL. Nada and July went through slumps of going to Code B, MC is still very competitive.
Nada has been in Code S since January GSL (i.e. the first season)
July was in Code A in January GSL and has been Code S ever since.
I'm not sure what made you think they went to code B.
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On September 10 2011 03:01 babylon wrote:
I won't lie, I want to see some godawful, risky Protoss strategies work in the GSL, where players double-expand and put themselves in danger of losing for a huge timing window but as soon as that window's over, roll over the opponent.
After all, it's how FD won GSL1. Behind? No problem! Just throw down a few expansions and hope to god you don't die.
Yeah that'd work if P had mobile units that weren't garbage or pf or creep or larva or marauders or tanks or infestors or amulet. No real good mobile defense to even take expos.. let alone actually hold them without 100% perfect scouting information. It'd just be a gimmick: does he find it? yes? aw gg. no? wow maybe I might win.
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Yeah, terran can build a cc safely in his main then float it over to w/e expansion and plop down a PF so theres basically a 50 second game time window where it is cost efficient to attack a terran expo, even if there are no terran units close by.
I remember idra saying p is losing because they try these risky builds that get scouted and punished, but its really the only way P can get a lead. Roll the dice and how you don't crap out.
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On September 10 2011 04:24 J.E.G. wrote:
Yeah, terran can build a cc safely in his main then float it over to w/e expansion and plop down a PF so theres basically a 50 second game time window where it is cost efficient to attack a terran expo, even if there are no terran units close by.
I remember idra saying p is losing because they try these risky builds that get scouted and punished, but its really the only way P can get a lead. Roll the dice and how you don't crap out.
I was laughing at Idra for those comments, it showed he has very little understanding of the other race's perspective.
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France12911 Posts
Can people stop saying that HongUn is bad?
Or comparing him with Huk lol...
He is and has always been a top 4 protoss
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On September 10 2011 05:41 Poopi wrote:
Can people stop saying that HongUn is bad?
Or comparing him with Huk lol...
He is and has always been a top 4 protoss
I don't get the hate for HongUn either, but i assume it's because Artosis.
HongUn is the protoss equivalent of Nada.
Always consistent, always places well.
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EPT
