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On August 08 2011 19:55 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:50 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:46 fant0m wrote:On August 08 2011 19:43 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:39 graNite wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 Fyzar wrote:
1/1/1 incoming 100% Where is the 1.1.1 now? stop whining protoss, we can beat you without this 1base push too did we ever say you couldn't...? what are you trying to prove, i actually don't mind losing if it's a nice macro game with aggressive strategies like these. boost your ego somewhere else So you get to dictate the 'honorable way' an opponent beats you? Sadly a LOT of SC2 players feel that way. Especially Zerg (and by the way I play Z now, I switched races this summer). People like Psy, Destiny, and Idra think that anyone who comes with a push before 15 minutes isn't playing the game "properly." What am i dictating? I've read all your posts and you're just another cynical f**, I don't want to waste any more time than I already will be by responding to you Ocedic, I merely stated that the 1/1/1 is an extremely viable way to kill protoss but by no means the ONLY way, we have never stated that you need that to beat us. whether I feel it to be less of a day killer that I get cheesed out or outmacro'd is my own choice, stop reading too much into what people say and inciting negative feelings, you're scum. Yes, I do like to call out whiners for being whiners. And don't say 'you' as if you know who I am. I don't even play Terran, I play Random. I come here to watch and enjoy games but see scum like you derailing the thread about balance. That's why I call you out. You can cry about it if you want, but I won't stop until people like you go away.
See, that's what I call unpleasant. You probably shouldn't call people scum.
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On August 08 2011 19:55 gehgrfhgrh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Akhee wrote:On August 08 2011 19:52 gehgrfhgrh wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 Sc2Null wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
Inca will rape DRG (aka most Overrated Player EVER!) your not familiar with inca's PvZ record DRG's only can win against Terrans :p I thought huk and naniwa were good protoss DRG's GSL Wins: 0
it was MLG, huk is code S and has much better pvz than inca
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On August 08 2011 19:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Dfgj wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 Jehct wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Dfgj wrote:On August 08 2011 19:46 fant0m wrote:On August 08 2011 19:43 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:39 graNite wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 Fyzar wrote:
1/1/1 incoming 100% Where is the 1.1.1 now? stop whining protoss, we can beat you without this 1base push too did we ever say you couldn't...? what are you trying to prove, i actually don't mind losing if it's a nice macro game with aggressive strategies like these. boost your ego somewhere else So you get to dictate the 'honorable way' an opponent beats you? Sadly a LOT of SC2 players feel that way. Especially Zerg (and by the way I play Z now, I switched races this summer). People like Psy, Destiny, and Idra think that anyone who comes with a push before 15 minutes isn't playing the game "properly." If you think the skill used by Taeja and required to prepare in game 1 and game 3 was anywhere near comparable you're deluding yourself. In game 3 that's a difficult argument to make. It took more skill to defend than to initiate because Tails was trying to cut corners. If he'd made 3-4 obs and kept vision of the map using them he would've been totally fine. If he'd mixed in DT's he could have counter-harassed. If he'd mixed in some form of stargate tech he could've taken map control. Different builds and tech paths/unit compositions have different drawbacks. When a player fails to address them, and another player abuses the drawbacks, the better player is winning. All kinds of arbitrary arguments about who is more skilled can still be made, they just don't matter. Oh I'm not comparing Taeje and Tails so much as purely Taeja. Game 3 showed some quite solid multitask, unit control, and overall solid gameplay from him. I thought it was pretty impressive - though it did work better because, as you say, Tails played pretty tech-greedy. I don't think Tails was greedy at all. If anything he wasn't greedy enough. He got out templar archives but never researched storm and just used them for feedbacks and making archons... Come on... The guy is like half marine...
You can take that view too, yeah. I think going straight to Archon at 10 minutes on 2 base (with charge and +2 armor as well) is kind of pushing it though, because you leave no gas for anything else - observers, stalkers, storm (hence no storm upgrade or drop defense). Then later on he had to remake stuff that he was losing and felt he couldn't easily spare it, I guess.
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On August 08 2011 19:55 HolyArrow wrote:
To any experienced Protoss players in this LR thread: What is, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a 1-1-1 all-in?
3gate-stargate phoenixes
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On August 08 2011 19:51 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:49 Failsafe wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:38 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:31 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:24 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:21 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
Some maps aren't good to 1-1-1 on. Your logic is stupid. You're basically saying, "It's not used in 100% of the games, therefore, it's not uncounterable, l2p". For one thing, most people here don't think it's uncounterable, but just that the skill and effort that takes to counter it far outstrips the skill and effort needed to execute it. And it IS used very, very often, with a very high winrate. Maybe you should go tell Puzzle and SangHo to stop whining and get better since I also saw them complaining about it, and they're not even known for QQ. Maybe they should stop QQ? There are numerous examples throughout BROOD WAR history where matchups were considered much one sided, then someone (Boxer, Bisu, JulyZerg, Savior, etc) came along and shook up the entire matchup with something new. But no, modern gamers can't be bothered with that. Let's just cry for nerfs every time a strategy is 'too hard' to counter. Okay, so basically, you're calling upon historical precedent of a different, arguably better-designed game to justify telling pros to shut up and learn to play. You realize that 1-1-1 has been around for a year, right? It's not a hot new strategy that's taking people by surprise. People have had plenty of time to figure out good counters. So then you are in favor of nerfing/buffing around flavor of the month builds? 1-1-1 has been around for a while but it only recently came back (it was gone for a few months.) I mean, did you watch the game? Taeja had 14 marines, 3 tanks and 2 bansshees against 3 stalkers and 3 sentries. You saying it's overpowered that the T force wins against 6 units? Might I recommend you start playing the novice maps, there are rocks that prevent rushes so you can play as greedy as you like. Your last statement is funny because you imply that I'm some terrible noob who needs novice maps, yet, a fast expansion (what I'm assuming your statement about being "greedy" is aimed at) is actually agreed upon by many good Toss players to be the best way to deal with 1-1-1. So who's the one who doesn't understand the game? Oh, and Tails had more than just 3 stalkers and 3 sentries, so maybe you're the one that needs to watch more carefully... Implying someone else's ignorance while simultaneously being ignorant yourself doesn't... really work. Hearsay isn't a good arugment, especially when you don't even cite your sources. 'Many good Toss players' agree with you? I can do the same thing, many good non-Protoss players disagree with you. Also, first you claim no counter to the strategy exists, now you say there is a way to deal with it. Make up your mind, balance whiner! Where did I claim that no counter exists? Strawman harder, dude. I feel like I've effectively communicated that there are counters, but they're not very consistent. I said right there in one of my posts embedded in that big quote tree: "For one thing, most people here don't think it's uncounterable, but just that the skill and effort that takes to counter it far outstrips the skill and effort needed to execute it." Read more carefully. I didn't cite my sources because I actually don't feel like putting that much effort into arguing with someone like you - this "hearsay" I talk about is just observing 1-1-1 discussion in LR threads. I could ask right here in this LR thread what experienced Protoss players think is a proper counter to 1-1-1, and I'm pretty sure that what they say would match up with what I'm claiming works. But I don't think that would convince you either, because then you'd play one of two cards: 1. There's no proof that the players in the LR thread are experienced Toss players 2. Players in an LR thread aren't enough numerically to constitute "many good Toss players". Thanks for countering your own arguments for me. So basically you admit you don't have an actual argument and thus don't back up your claims. Got it. Either cite your sources (waiting on these 'good Protoss' quotes) or don't make shit up. who are you? it seems pretty clear to the vast majority of viewers that there are problems with the 111 build. the onus is on you to support your claim that there isn't a problem. the fact of the matter is that it's a frequently used build with an insane win rate. what have you got? Yes, cause the majority of posters whining in an LR thread (most of the people here probably don't even play much, let alone at a level where balance matters) equates to a universally accepted notion about balance. You got me there.
you're expressing an opinion contrary to everyone else and you don't support it. you're being a douchebag. i'm not arguing from the strength of majority opinion -- i'm just pointing out that you're being an ass.
to support my claim i reference that 1-1-1 takes very little skill to execute (and this is pretty much undisputed)
to support my claim i reference 1-1-1's extremely high winrate at every level of play, including when executed against heavy favorites who would otherwise be expected to win
what claims do you use to support your argument? you can't simply say 'no you're wrong, i disagree with you'. you have to provide some sort of evidence for disagreeing.
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If inca beats DRG...He kinda loses that "omg he sooo code-S" factor.
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On August 08 2011 19:55 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:38 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:31 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:24 Ocedic wrote:
[quote]
Maybe they should stop QQ? There are numerous examples throughout BROOD WAR history where matchups were considered much one sided, then someone (Boxer, Bisu, JulyZerg, Savior, etc) came along and shook up the entire matchup with something new.
But no, modern gamers can't be bothered with that. Let's just cry for nerfs every time a strategy is 'too hard' to counter. Okay, so basically, you're calling upon historical precedent of a different, arguably better-designed game to justify telling pros to shut up and learn to play. You realize that 1-1-1 has been around for a year, right? It's not a hot new strategy that's taking people by surprise. People have had plenty of time to figure out good counters. So then you are in favor of nerfing/buffing around flavor of the month builds? 1-1-1 has been around for a while but it only recently came back (it was gone for a few months.) I mean, did you watch the game? Taeja had 14 marines, 3 tanks and 2 bansshees against 3 stalkers and 3 sentries. You saying it's overpowered that the T force wins against 6 units? Might I recommend you start playing the novice maps, there are rocks that prevent rushes so you can play as greedy as you like. Your last statement is funny because you imply that I'm some terrible noob who needs novice maps, yet, a fast expansion (what I'm assuming your statement about being "greedy" is aimed at) is actually agreed upon by many good Toss players to be the best way to deal with 1-1-1. So who's the one who doesn't understand the game? Oh, and Tails had more than just 3 stalkers and 3 sentries, so maybe you're the one that needs to watch more carefully... Implying someone else's ignorance while simultaneously being ignorant yourself doesn't... really work. Hearsay isn't a good arugment, especially when you don't even cite your sources. 'Many good Toss players' agree with you? I can do the same thing, many good non-Protoss players disagree with you. Also, first you claim no counter to the strategy exists, now you say there is a way to deal with it. Make up your mind, balance whiner! Where did I claim that no counter exists? Strawman harder, dude. I feel like I've effectively communicated that there are counters, but they're not very consistent. I said right there in one of my posts embedded in that big quote tree: "For one thing, most people here don't think it's uncounterable, but just that the skill and effort that takes to counter it far outstrips the skill and effort needed to execute it." Read more carefully. I didn't cite my sources because I actually don't feel like putting that much effort into arguing with someone like you - this "hearsay" I talk about is just observing 1-1-1 discussion in LR threads. I could ask right here in this LR thread what experienced Protoss players think is a proper counter to 1-1-1, and I'm pretty sure that what they say would match up with what I'm claiming works. But I don't think that would convince you either, because then you'd play one of two cards: 1. There's no proof that the players in the LR thread are experienced Toss players 2. Players in an LR thread aren't enough numerically to constitute "many good Toss players". Thanks for countering your own arguments for me. So basically you admit you don't have an actual argument and thus don't back up your claims. Got it. Either cite your sources (waiting on these 'good Protoss' quotes) or don't make shit up. I'm not making shit up. I'm sitting here knowing that I'm right, laughing at how ignorant you are. This is one of those situations where I know something to be a truth, and I'm watching someone act as contrary and aggressive as possible, while crossing his arms telling me to prove that truth - but, your attitude makes me not care enough to bother proving anything to you, so I'm just sitting here, slightly annoyed but mostly amused by your sheer ignorance. Ah, good old "I'm actually laughing at you" Internet argument. You're still devoid of actual facts to back up anything you say. Good to know :D The facts are right here. You can go back to some 1-1-1 discussion early in this LR thread and they're right there. You're just too unpleasant for me to actually want to make the effort to go back and get those facts for you. I can ask right here, if you want: To any experienced Protoss players in this LR thread: What is, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a 1-1-1 all-in?
Yeah you're wrong and still have zero facts to back your arguments up. Watching you resort to logical fallacies is delicious. Please, keep doing it :D
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On August 08 2011 19:49 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:47 Dfgj wrote:On August 08 2011 19:46 fant0m wrote:On August 08 2011 19:43 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:39 graNite wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 Fyzar wrote:
1/1/1 incoming 100% Where is the 1.1.1 now? stop whining protoss, we can beat you without this 1base push too did we ever say you couldn't...? what are you trying to prove, i actually don't mind losing if it's a nice macro game with aggressive strategies like these. boost your ego somewhere else So you get to dictate the 'honorable way' an opponent beats you? Sadly a LOT of SC2 players feel that way. Especially Zerg (and by the way I play Z now, I switched races this summer). People like Psy, Destiny, and Idra think that anyone who comes with a push before 15 minutes isn't playing the game "properly." If you think the skill used by Taeja and required to prepare in game 1 and game 3 was anywhere near comparable you're deluding yourself. You know what takes skill? Winning. There's some Zerg-propaganda influenced mindset that macro games 'take more skill.' In Brood War, yes. But in SC2 macro is so easy that I basically laugh in your face at that notion. It's just an excuse for greedy players to look down on rushes and cheeses so they have an excuse when they aren't prepared for those.
Late game takes more skill than early/mid game. Because there's simply more units, more buildings to macro, more to do. Players who routinely play towards a late game have a point in thinking they are playing at a higher skill level than players who routinely strive to kill their opponent with one base.
Granted, wins are the ultimate gauge of skill, but thus far in SC2, it's easier for players to learn a few all-in builds than learn the more complex late-game counters and unit compositions.
And "in SC2, macro is so easy"? What, are you a pro? It's easier than Brood War in some aspects, but it certainly isn't easy to the point that all players -- even at the pro level -- show the same understanding and level of proper macro. What a BS statement.
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Inca expo done as DRG expo starts...I have a bad feeling about this.
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and people complaining in a lr thread again..sighs
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On August 08 2011 19:55 gehgrfhgrh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Akhee wrote:On August 08 2011 19:52 gehgrfhgrh wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 Sc2Null wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
Inca will rape DRG (aka most Overrated Player EVER!) your not familiar with inca's PvZ record DRG's only can win against Terrans :p I thought huk and naniwa were good protoss DRG's GSL Wins: 0
You're right. Guess Naniwa, Sase, Thorzain and Fenix are all doomed with their 0 GSL wins.
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Babybit fighting the good fight for TL. He's a veritable Captain America joining the Legion of heroes with Hurigas the lithuanian lizard and Timespiral the font master.
Another stargate opening. It's safe but argh I hope he goes 6-7 ate all-in. Best build imo. WAITHTWTT
2 StarGates! Voids!??!
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If DRG loses to inca's PvZ, drg will be sent to north korea for disgracing the motherland
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On August 08 2011 19:55 gehgrfhgrh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Akhee wrote:On August 08 2011 19:52 gehgrfhgrh wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 Sc2Null wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
Inca will rape DRG (aka most Overrated Player EVER!) your not familiar with inca's PvZ record DRG's only can win against Terrans :p I thought huk and naniwa were good protoss DRG's GSL Wins: 0
There's a lot more to rating a player than just judging them by their individual GSL results. So many pros acknowledge DRG as one of the best zergs in the world and he's taken out a lot of people in one GSL tournament or another (GSTL or GSL Special tournament) and those tournament results are good enough considering the opponents he's faced.
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On August 08 2011 19:55 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:53 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:51 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:47 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:38 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:31 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 19:24 Ocedic wrote:
[quote]
Maybe they should stop QQ? There are numerous examples throughout BROOD WAR history where matchups were considered much one sided, then someone (Boxer, Bisu, JulyZerg, Savior, etc) came along and shook up the entire matchup with something new.
But no, modern gamers can't be bothered with that. Let's just cry for nerfs every time a strategy is 'too hard' to counter. Okay, so basically, you're calling upon historical precedent of a different, arguably better-designed game to justify telling pros to shut up and learn to play. You realize that 1-1-1 has been around for a year, right? It's not a hot new strategy that's taking people by surprise. People have had plenty of time to figure out good counters. So then you are in favor of nerfing/buffing around flavor of the month builds? 1-1-1 has been around for a while but it only recently came back (it was gone for a few months.) I mean, did you watch the game? Taeja had 14 marines, 3 tanks and 2 bansshees against 3 stalkers and 3 sentries. You saying it's overpowered that the T force wins against 6 units? Might I recommend you start playing the novice maps, there are rocks that prevent rushes so you can play as greedy as you like. Your last statement is funny because you imply that I'm some terrible noob who needs novice maps, yet, a fast expansion (what I'm assuming your statement about being "greedy" is aimed at) is actually agreed upon by many good Toss players to be the best way to deal with 1-1-1. So who's the one who doesn't understand the game? Oh, and Tails had more than just 3 stalkers and 3 sentries, so maybe you're the one that needs to watch more carefully... Implying someone else's ignorance while simultaneously being ignorant yourself doesn't... really work. Hearsay isn't a good arugment, especially when you don't even cite your sources. 'Many good Toss players' agree with you? I can do the same thing, many good non-Protoss players disagree with you. Also, first you claim no counter to the strategy exists, now you say there is a way to deal with it. Make up your mind, balance whiner! Where did I claim that no counter exists? Strawman harder, dude. I feel like I've effectively communicated that there are counters, but they're not very consistent. I said right there in one of my posts embedded in that big quote tree: "For one thing, most people here don't think it's uncounterable, but just that the skill and effort that takes to counter it far outstrips the skill and effort needed to execute it." Read more carefully. I didn't cite my sources because I actually don't feel like putting that much effort into arguing with someone like you - this "hearsay" I talk about is just observing 1-1-1 discussion in LR threads. I could ask right here in this LR thread what experienced Protoss players think is a proper counter to 1-1-1, and I'm pretty sure that what they say would match up with what I'm claiming works. But I don't think that would convince you either, because then you'd play one of two cards: 1. There's no proof that the players in the LR thread are experienced Toss players 2. Players in an LR thread aren't enough numerically to constitute "many good Toss players". Thanks for countering your own arguments for me. So basically you admit you don't have an actual argument and thus don't back up your claims. Got it. Either cite your sources (waiting on these 'good Protoss' quotes) or don't make shit up. I'm not making shit up. I'm sitting here knowing that I'm right, laughing at how ignorant you are. This is one of those situations where I know something to be a truth, and I'm watching someone act as contrary and aggressive as possible, while crossing his arms telling me to prove that truth - but, your attitude makes me not care enough to bother proving anything to you, so I'm just sitting here, slightly annoyed but mostly amused by your sheer ignorance. Ah, good old "I'm actually laughing at you" Internet argument. You're still devoid of actual facts to back up anything you say. Good to know :D To any experienced Protoss players in this LR thread: What is, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a 1-1-1 all-in?
I like to stop robo production since I dont think Immortals bring anything that zealots dont also bring.
Get 3 phoenix.
barely survive. Usually lose all the probes at my natural.
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On August 08 2011 19:55 HolyArrow wrote:
I can ask right here, if you want:
To any experienced Protoss players in this LR thread: What is, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a 1-1-1 all-in?
4 gate and hope he was going for the 1-1-1 ?
other than that...
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On August 08 2011 19:57 Drazerk wrote:Late LR start!  Dongraegu vs Inca  In the top left is Inca In the top right is Dongraegu
6:00
Void on the way for inca getting a second starport ( He's on two bases )
Lair and a evo on the way for DRG who is also on two bases
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On August 08 2011 19:55 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 19:50 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:46 fant0m wrote:On August 08 2011 19:43 Ocedic wrote:On August 08 2011 19:40 itsjuspeter wrote:On August 08 2011 19:39 graNite wrote:On August 08 2011 19:26 Fyzar wrote:
1/1/1 incoming 100% Where is the 1.1.1 now? stop whining protoss, we can beat you without this 1base push too did we ever say you couldn't...? what are you trying to prove, i actually don't mind losing if it's a nice macro game with aggressive strategies like these. boost your ego somewhere else So you get to dictate the 'honorable way' an opponent beats you? Sadly a LOT of SC2 players feel that way. Especially Zerg (and by the way I play Z now, I switched races this summer). People like Psy, Destiny, and Idra think that anyone who comes with a push before 15 minutes isn't playing the game "properly." What am i dictating? I've read all your posts and you're just another cynical f**, I don't want to waste any more time than I already will be by responding to you Ocedic, I merely stated that the 1/1/1 is an extremely viable way to kill protoss but by no means the ONLY way, we have never stated that you need that to beat us. whether I feel it to be less of a day killer that I get cheesed out or outmacro'd is my own choice, stop reading too much into what people say and inciting negative feelings, you're scum. Yes, I do like to call out whiners for being whiners. And don't say 'you' as if you know who I am. I don't even play Terran, I play Random. I come here to watch and enjoy games but see scum like you derailing the thread about balance. That's why I call you out. You can cry about it if you want, but I won't stop until people like you go away.
Lol alright, guess I'll waste a bit of my time tonight with ignorant, biased morons like this you. I love reading your posts having numerous people, not just me argue with you only to have you be a completely unreasonable and biased as* to everyone who has anything decent to say. I hope you know you're not wanted here, your opinions mean little to me, your needs as well, you can disappear the next day and your existence will have made no impact to anyone who reads this thread.
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EPT
