why mention cheese then why not say what i was thinking watching that as a protoss player ....oh wow thats different and risky lets see how this game goes!

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#562

On May 20 2011 11:23 hifriend wrote:

Show nested quote +

lol I'm not qqing, but that's economic cheese if I've ever seen it.

it gets scouted = he dies
sjow does one of several timings = he dies

Sjow does one of several things he never does = dies

He is playing his opponent

On a side note though, Crunchers mechanics have improved incredibly over the last few months

TotalBiscuit

United Kingdom5437 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#563

On May 20 2011 11:26 ZeromuS wrote:

Show nested quote +

Are you sure your not a cyberman? :p

You can't prove anything

Gondlem

Australia642 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#564

Cruncher should get storm.

There we go.

TT1

Canada10052 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#565

uhhhhh crunchers transition into collosus is really late
edit: going into ht, dont like with the ups he already has.. collo woulda been more cost efficient

Kznn

Brazil9072 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#566

Cruncher is getting so much better o.o
I like that playstyle. Just countered sjow's nature playstyle. hahaha

Pajegetc

United States3158 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#567

On May 20 2011 11:24 Z3kk wrote:
Hehe I actually sort of like Cruncher :> Really liking his play here, at least.

Yeah, I'm really liking his decisions this game too.

Meapak_Ziphh

United States6788 Posts

May 20 2011 02:27 GMT

#568

curncher has an insane number of gates and he's taking another expo

sjow making a bunch more barracks

level three weapons and armor are done for cruncher

templer (both dt and high) are out

Corrik

United States1416 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#569

Ahahahaha. Gretorp can barely get a word in. I love it.

Mailing

United States3087 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#570

On May 20 2011 11:26 sc14s wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is no such thing as cheese to me, if you would like me to clarify. I find its the player receiving the "cheese" whos fault it is to not figure it out. Thats just me, play to win, its the losers fault for losing.

Taking an early third when you can not defend it is cheese. You lose it 100% of the time if your enemy scouts it, it's taking a risk hoping your opponent doesn't see it.

Yes, it's sjows fault for not seeing it, but is still cheese, which is sometimes good if you want to win.

Something like 2rax bunker pressure is not cheese, zergs scout it. It's pressure.

Al Bundy

7257 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#571

Cruncher's deathball is not quite... deadly yet. Not collossus, no templar, no stargate units.

bkrow

Australia8532 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#572

Has SjoW forgotten concussive shells? Or am i dreaming;

Lol TB - there were 2 EMPs

luke3920

United Kingdom182 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#573

Cruncher still only on gate units, though they have sick upgrades

Nidoa

Canada239 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#574

2 emps actually went off, though one missed

DarkPlasmaBall

United States46279 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#575

Cruncher has no charge, storm, sentries, or tech units...

Mordiford

4448 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#576

He just EMP'd half his fucking army TotalBiscuit...

Jman5

United States745 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#577

lol TB, I forgive you.

ZeromuS

Canada13410 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#578

Cruncher please get AoE if you dont get AoE you cant really kill a bio ball its very efficient especially if the chargelots arent in front

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#579

On May 20 2011 11:24 Whitewing wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 20 2011 11:22 Dommk wrote:

On May 20 2011 11:18 Whitewing wrote:

On May 20 2011 11:13 Yaotzin wrote:

On May 20 2011 11:11 Whitewing wrote:

On May 20 2011 11:09 Zephirdd wrote:
Anyone else feels that Moman can't stand a macro game and only wins with all-ins? I mean, the game where he could make whatever he wanted, he lacked creep spread and tech, but the other games he just went for NesTea's ling/roach timing..

It kinda sucks, is every ZvP going to be like that?

Protoss is very weak at that timing, and zergs are learning now that the 3 gate expand with just sentries followed by fast tech (iNcontroL was building a robo) is greedy. It's necessary for the game to evolve that zergs punish protoss at that timing, so that protoss will start playing a little less greedy, which will give zergs a little bit of an easier time. One of the reasons the deathball is so strong is that toss gets away with playing greedy early on to get an edge: stop letting them do that, and it gets easier later.

Well I wouldn't say it's unreasonably greedy as it is defendable, it's just for some reason a lot of toss players are failing hard when it comes to defending it. Not that it's easy to do but still..

If it's very hard to defend (it is) then your play is greedier than it should be at that point: you're taking a risk for a potential benefit. Protoss players have been doing this for a very long time now, and teching immediately after expanding is greedy play. To play safe after that expo, you need to throw down more gateways and pump units for a short while before you get the robo, and tech slowly. iNcontroL was getting +1 weapons and a robo when that attack hit, and his army was less than half the size of MoMaN's. The definition of greedy is trying to get a big economic or tech edge without being able to defend effectively, and that's what we're seeing repeatedly with that roach/ling timing.

Rather than going immediately robo, it might be wise to get hallucinate, pump more units, and get a slower robo and get upgrades after the phoenix scout.

Seriously, I have yet to see a single Protoss hold off the all-in in a live casted game in any tournament, it is NOT easy to defend regardless of not getting fast robo or +1. You get Robo after because of any burrow timings but usually its fine to deal with it.

Watch White-ras 12weeks with the pros from yesterday, even he says it is difficult

That's exactly right: my argument is that the 3 gate expand with just a bunch of sentries is, in fact, a greedy build. You need more muscle to defend, and you can't do that with just a bunch of sentries, followed immediately by teching. If you want to go with that fast robo, you need to throw down a bunch of cannons, not just 1-3 of them. Either that, or have some form of confirmation that they aren't doing an all-in.

EDIT: It's just the timing for when the nexus completes off of that 3 gate style. Either get the nexus down sooner to be safe at that timing (2 gate expand?), or delay it a little.

3Gate expand is NOT a greedy build, it is the safest build you can do, you get your Nexus later as opposed to Nexus or Forge first but you have sentries and able to hold all-ins, it is so absurd that 3gate expand of all things with a 6-7min expo is considered greedy.
3gate expand is by far the safest style of play to this type of play, at least following White-ras advice. And from my own experience, I agree.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

May 20 2011 02:28 GMT

#580

I always worry for terran in situations like this.