EPT[IPL] Week 1 Day 1 - Page 78
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If you know the results, keep it to yourself please. Be nice to those who don't want to be spoiled. Thanks! | ||
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DieterEilts
Germany283 Posts
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
But then again, there are a lot of people who do like him, and I'm sure he's good for bringing in new viewers. My only real complaint would be that he solo casted it; were he to be given an analytical co caster I would enjoy watching these games a lot more. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:36 Kojaimea wrote: So where do you draw the line between subjective opinion and constructive criticism? 'There are no facts, only interpretations' -Nietzsche. Opinion, or interpretation, is the basis of constructive criticism. You are making a distinction, subjective opinion vs constructive criticism, based on your own subjective opinion. To discount a huge swathe of valuable criticism, just because you don't deem it as such (for whatever reason), is not only foolish, but undermines the community you are a part of. There are no facts, only interpretations? I think you're misinterpreting the meaning of that quote, there are most certainly facts. The swathe is not huge, it is tiny. In comparison to the view count on the stream it represents a very small minority of viewers, not to mention the viewcount I get for my own work outside of this league. It is very easy for the internet to become an echo chamber where an opinion is believed more widespread than it actually is. The line is drawn at what is reasonable and actionable and what is not. It is also drawn in the way that the information is presented. Does it provide useful alternatives or suggestions on how to improve? Does it have basis in fact or is it just like... your opinion man. Objective, useful criticism : "This call was wrong due to X, Y and Z" Subjective, useless criticism : "I do not like the caster's accent" Evidence, rationale, logic, supporting arguments, all of these contribute to good constructive criticism. If you lack these things, your criticism is not useful. Since we are quoting, here's one of my own. "I can't give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time." Herbert Bayard Swope (1882 - 1958) And that's what it comes down to. Teamliquid's demographic will favour analytical casters over play-by-play because the community itself is heavily into analysis. Many TL members use casts to get better and learn. If you look at other community's feedback to say, my casting or DJWheats, you will find the reception is completely different, because it is a different demographic with different expectations. The mistake a small group of TL members make is believing that TL is the be all and end all of the SC2 community and viewerbase. It isn't. Their criticism is coloured by this belief and is not objective as a result. They cannot distinguish between "This is bad, here's why" and "I don't like this, it's not my thing". Voices are like music, some people like em, some people dislike em, they can rarely point to why because it's such a personal thing. | ||
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SicPro
United States202 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:36 Kojaimea wrote: So where do you draw the line between subjective opinion and constructive criticism? 'There are no facts, only interpretations' -Nietzsche. Opinion, or interpretation, is the basis of constructive criticism. You are making a distinction, subjective opinion vs constructive criticism, based on your own subjective opinion. To discount a huge swathe of valuable criticism, just because you don't deem it as such (for whatever reason), is not only foolish, but undermines the community you are a part of. Ohhhhh shit! He just Nietzsche'd your ass! No but seriously you and your followers cant keep saying the same thing, that we're a part of a small minority. When clearly its more like 50/50 split. You picking apart my post and only taking from it.... "he shouts too much" is fact enough youre covering your ears and just shouting more to block me out. I had more a couple well thought out constructive criticisms as to how I would enjoy the IPL substantially more, namely when you're casting. But it goes just as well for DJwheat when I said... On April 22 2011 13:51 SicPro wrote: Sorry but I do actually think about what I'm about to say unlike someee peopleee who speak so fast they dont have the time to construct a train of thought that actually LEADS somewhere. Pro casters can transition deeper into more interesting ideas while still being entertaining just like the pro gamers transition into their builds. No one wants to watch cruncher do all in's every game just like no one wants to watch cruncher sit back and never leave his base. Lol I know I'm hating a little on cruncher but he just came to mind. Who says we should only have one or the other? WE DESERVE BOTH! My prime example: Day9. I know he gets brought up as the savior of casts but its true. You need both sides of it. The excitement and the knowledge. Can't overflow on one. One thing I do like about Wheat is that when the game calls for it he does get pumped. Not just the entire game. That doesn't mean he couldn't improve by watching your casts and taking something from them. And last time I checked people who play the game and appreciate it for more than just something to stare at while we throw food into our holes and zone out (It happens) is NOT the minority. | ||
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MBH
Ireland796 Posts
Maybe i am too dump to find the "correct" way to play the vods though... | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: Ohhhhh shit! He just Nietzsche'd your ass! No but seriously you and your followers cant keep saying the same thing, that we're a part of a small minority. When clearly its more like 50/50 split. You picking apart my post and only taking from it.... "he shouts too much" is fact enough youre covering your ears and just shouting more to block me out. I had more a couple well thought out constructive criticisms as to how I would enjoy the IPL substantially more, namely when you're casting. But it goes just as well for DJwheat when I said... You need both sides of it. The excitement and the knowledge. Can't overflow on one. One thing I do like about Wheat is that when the game calls for it he does get pumped. Not just the entire game. That doesn't mean he couldn't improve by watching your casts and taking something from them. And last time I checked people who play the game and appreciate it for more than just something to stare at while we throw food into our holes and zone out (It happens) is NOT the minority. dude, will you shut the hell up already? . I don't know who pissed in your cereal this morning but i'm sure this thread would be better off with out your "criticism". | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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SicPro
United States202 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:07 ReachTheSky wrote: dude, will you shut the hell up already? . I don't know who pissed in your cereal this morning but i'm sure this thread would be better off with out your "criticism". Really cause I'm the guy who sparked this discussion. So unless you're against the idea of expressing views for the purpose of bettering oneself and the greater good or you're against what I'm trying to express. And actually just had a really wicked dream. Don't leave sportscenter on that loud after drinking one of those protein shake things. Ruthless combination. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: Ohhhhh shit! He just Nietzsche'd your ass! No but seriously you and your followers cant keep saying the same thing, that we're a part of a small minority. When clearly its more like 50/50 split Do you have evidence to support this theory that the like/dislike ratio for my casts is 50/50, or even anywhere close to that? You picking apart my post and only taking from it.... "he shouts too much" is fact enough youre covering your ears and just shouting more to block me out. I had more a couple well thought out constructive criticisms as to how I would enjoy the IPL substantially more, namely when you're casting. But it goes just as well for DJwheat when I said... You need both sides of it. The excitement and the knowledge. Can't overflow on one. One thing I do like about Wheat is that when the game calls for it he does get pumped. Not just the entire game. That doesn't mean he couldn't improve by watching your casts and taking something from them. And last time I checked people who play the game and appreciate it for more than just something to stare at while we throw food into our holes and zone out (It happens) is NOT the minority. No really, you are the minority. How exactly do you explain Husky's viewcount, or HD's. Neither of these guys do heavy analysis, yet their VoDs get more than 100,000 views each. TL-Tunnelvision is what I'd call this, there's probably a psychological term for it, but it come down to being so invested in one community that you believe it's the only one. It troubles me that people often say they want eSports to reach the level of sports and yet ignore the fact that the HUGE majority of sports fans are casual, sofa-dwelling, beer-swilling 'food throwers' that just watch the game to be entertained, not to learn. As for your criticism, it is not constructive. We've already covered the co-casting thing on several occasions and myself and Wheat both said we know co-casting is preferable but given the reasons why it wasn't used in S1 and will be in S2. A lack of game knowledge can be remedied and is never deliberately part of a cast. It's detriment to the cast can be eliminated by the use of a co-caster, but it's level of importance depends on how much analysis people actually want, which varies from person to person. It is important to understand what demographic this tournament is aimed at and why the casting is the way that it is. TL isn't the only fish in this very big pond and that's a good thing. A broader spectrum of viewers is important to the future of broadcast eSports. | ||
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MBH
Ireland796 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:12 The KY wrote: Can I just mention how frustrating it is that if you accidentally click anywhere outside the box that the VOD plays, it closes completely. Done it 3 times now :/ Yeah, happened to me too hehe...dont know though, if we ever find another solution to watch the vods. Ppl just talk about random bs here apparently. | ||
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SicPro
United States202 Posts
Do not sit there and tell me you and Husky are the exact same person. You're not. And Husky gets that amount of views because of his ability to flow in some deep analytic thought while also keeping things interesting as well as exciting with his passion for the game. He doesn't just talk continuously until you cant even listen anymore because so much useless information is being thrown your way you're being COMPLETELY distracted from the depth the match is going into. It should NOT be about the caster it should ALWAYS be about the game. I'm sorry but how is saying you talk too much not constructive? I also fleshed out exactly why its not a good thing, how it keeps you from taking the time to think about the game for yourself and try to analyze things along with the caster who is supposed to be doing at least some basic level analysis. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:23 SicPro wrote: Did you really just tell me.... someone with 9 posts, half of which came from this thread... that I have TL tunnel vision? Really? Cause I got into watching casts from Husky and Day9 at the exact same time during Beta. If you wanna say i made this account just for this then go look at my posts and you'd be wrong again bucko. When the heated debate between Husky or Day9 would come up on youtube videos or Day9's chat I would always take the side of not taking sides. And appreciate each for their own unique talents and just knew that they both brought a fun and enjoyable atmosphere to each of their casts. Most definitely because they do this because they LOVE the game and e-sports in general. Do not sit there and tell me you and Husky are the exact same person. You're not. And Husky gets that amount of views because of his ability to flow in some deep analytic thought while also keeping things interesting as well as exciting with his passion for the game. He doesn't just talk continuously until you cant even listen anymore because so much useless information is being thrown your way you're being COMPLETELY distracted from the depth the match is going into. It should NOT be about the caster it should ALWAYS be about the game. I'm sorry but how is saying you talk too much not constructive? I also fleshed out exactly why its not a good thing, how it keeps you from taking the time to think about the game for yourself and try to analyze things along with the caster who is supposed to be doing at least some basic level analysis. I'm sorry, I love Husky to death as both a friend and a caster but you just claimed he flows deep analytical thought into a game which makes me seriously question your actual knowledge and the validity of your criticism. That is one thing Husky himself admits he does not do and you're not going to find many people that believe otherwise. Husky is pure play by play, he always has been, chances are he always will be. Our styles differ but our content is very similar. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:12 SicPro wrote: Really cause I'm the guy who sparked this discussion. So unless you're against the idea of expressing views for the purpose of bettering oneself and the greater good or you're against what I'm trying to express. And actually just had a really wicked dream. Don't leave sportscenter on that loud after drinking one of those protein shake things. Ruthless combination. There is a a difference between a discussion with CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and BLATANT BASHING . Yours is the later. Either your completely delusional or just really don't know the difference. Trying to continue argue that your being constructive only makes you look more foolish than you sound. Get your act together man. | ||
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sanctity
United Kingdom14 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: No but seriously you and your followers cant keep saying the same thing, that we're a part of a small minority. When clearly its more like 50/50 split. Citation needed, otherwise you're presenting your opinion as fact again. On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: You picking apart my post and only taking from it.... "he shouts too much" is fact enough youre covering your ears and just shouting more to block me out. IS ALWAYS ON LIKE A TROLL WITH CAPS LOCK HE NEVER STOPS YELLING. OMG HE KILLED THAT DRONE AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't want this to be the immediate take home from your post why use block caps? On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: I had more a couple well thought out constructive criticisms as to how I would enjoy the IPL substantially more, namely when you're casting... Contradiction, your not criticising objectively and constructively you're saying "I want this", it's right there in this "rebuttal" and all throughout the other parts I have ommited. I will include this from your original post though just to show how whiny you were: Anyone who enjoys it is not thinking clearly Fair and objective. Totally. On April 22 2011 20:03 SicPro wrote: You need both sides of it. The excitement and the knowledge. Can't overflow on one. One thing I do like about Wheat is that when the game calls for it he does get pumped. Not just the entire game. That doesn't mean he couldn't improve by watching your casts and taking something from them. And last time I checked people who play the game and appreciate it for more than just something to stare at while we throw food into our holes and zone out (It happens) is NOT the minority. Why can't he emphasise one thing over another? TB != DjWheat, thinking that he should is silly. Citation needed again, prove to me that more people enjoy analysis all the time more than some analysis + a bit of TB's play-by-play. I personally loved the IGN proleague and value the diversity of styles in the casting and I think that solo-casting is an stylistic choice and while I like casting in pairs better it's refreshing to have a change. | ||
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SicPro
United States202 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm sorry, I love Husky to death as both a friend and a caster but you just claimed he flows deep analytical thought into a game which makes me seriously question your actual knowledge and the validity of your criticism. That is one thing Husky himself admits he does not do and you're not going to find many people that believe otherwise. Husky is pure play by play, he always has been, chances are he always will be. Our styles differ but our content is very similar. Really? Maybe at the events like MLG when he's paired with someone who is doing all the analysis, and maybe in his earlier videos, but in his most recent work he absolutely goes into builds along with the different options they offer strategically. You're right it may not be deep analytical thought. BUT ITS SOME ANALYTICAL THOUGHT | ||
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RM_12
201 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:56 The KY wrote: To be honest, I'm just not a fan of TotalBiscuit's casting. I have no constructive criticism, no pet peeves, not even any specific complaints. I just don't like it, and I was mildly disappointed to click the VOD for the IdrA v Fenix game and hear that it was him casting it. But then again, there are a lot of people who do like him, and I'm sure he's good for bringing in new viewers. My only real complaint would be that he solo casted it; were he to be given an analytical co caster I would enjoy watching these games a lot more. 100% agree. TB is entertaining, but he need's a co caster with more analytical commentary. I think HD+PainUser duo will work out the best, simply because it's 2 casters together, and it's commentator+pro player combo that will bring both: entertainment and analysis. Keep the good work up IPL | ||
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:23 SicPro wrote: Did you really just tell me.... someone with 9 posts, half of which came from this thread... that I have TL tunnel vision? Really? Cause I got into watching casts from Husky and Day9 at the exact same time during Beta. If you wanna say i made this account just for this then go look at my posts and you'd be wrong again bucko. When the heated debate between Husky or Day9 would come up on youtube videos or Day9's chat I would always take the side of not taking sides. And appreciate each for their own unique talents and just knew that they both brought a fun and enjoyable atmosphere to each of their casts. Clearly they do this because they LOVE the game and e-sports in general. Do not sit there and tell me you and Husky are the exact same person. You're not. And Husky gets that amount of views because of his ability to flow in some deep analytic thought while also keeping things interesting as well as exciting with his passion for the game. He doesn't just talk continuously until you cant even listen anymore because so much useless information is being thrown your way you're being COMPLETELY distracted from the depth the match is going into. It should NOT be about the caster it should ALWAYS be about the game. I'm sorry but how is saying you talk too much not constructive? I also fleshed out exactly why its not a good thing, how it keeps you from taking the time to think about the game for yourself and try to analyze things along with the caster who is supposed to be doing at least some basic level analysis. Husky is bad. I mean really, hes improving but still, he dont know the names of units and ups, or any of the standard builds-- | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:32 SicPro wrote: Really? Maybe at the events like MLG when he's paired with someone who is doing all the analysis, and maybe in his earlier videos, but in his most recent work he absolutely goes into builds along with the different options they offer strategically. You're right it may not be deep analytical thought. BUT ITS SOME ANALYTICAL THOUGHT I question your definition of analytical thought if you can apply it to Husky's casts and not to mine. I also went into builds, the different options and possibilities, the economic situation, potential future plays as well as breaking down why each fight ended the way it did. I was also able to frequently predict what was going to happen and explain why it lead up to that point, admittedly in a fairly basic fashion. I didn't do it indepth, I don't have the knowledge to do that and I am earnestly working on improving that part of my casting, but to claim it is not there entirely simply isn't true. This is the biggest problem I've had with your posts so far, you tend towards hyperbole and twisting the truth, which is not positive for this discussion. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On April 22 2011 20:36 TotalBiscuit wrote: I question your definition of analytical thought if you can apply it to Husky's casts and not to mine. I also went into builds, the different options and possibilities, the economic situation, potential future plays as well as breaking down why each fight ended the way it did. I didn't do it indepth, I don't have the knowledge to do that and I am earnestly working on improving that part of my casting, but to claim it is not there entirely simply isn't true. This is the biggest problem I've had with your posts so far, you tend towards hyperbole and twisting the truth, which is not positive for this discussion. This guy is a clown TB. Wish a mod would come by a bop this clown with his ban hammer. | ||
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