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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 27 2011 14:55 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 14:35 edwrodrig wrote:
I don´t understand the world
Random foreigners defeat CodeS
Top Foreigners defeat Random Foreigners
CodeA defeat Top Foreigners
CodeS defeat CodeA
Then who´s the best? Your statements are not accurate, I'd hardly call Adel, Qxc, and Goody "random foreigners." Also, judging by how many Code A advanced into Code S, the GSTL results where many Code S lost to non-Code S and how many Code S players are slumping recently, its hard to even say Code S has the very best players. I like to think of Code S more as being the best "consistent" players. Since the road to Code S is quite difficult. So while there might be more raw talent and skill in the lower leagues atm that could take games off the current Code S players I doubt that they would be as consistent as the people currently in Code S. The GOM World Championship will be interesting to see how both sides stack in a more neutral environment. In the end you're only as good as your last match.
I think the GSL World Championship comparison isn't fair either. The TSL players this weekend had two weeks to prepare for 3 games. The GSL jams a ton of games into a short period and there's very little time (less than a few days oftentimes) to prepare specifically for a match. Some players do well in this environment and others don't. It's obvious that more prep time for less games can help underdogs and players who have more strategic focus. If Goody played Nestea 100 times, I'm pretty sure by game 50 Nestea would be used the to all the strategies being thrown at him. This is not to take anything away from Goody, because the format is what it is. We don't play Bo21s in the TSL for a reason.
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On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
It's an obvious difference but if you prepare for it it can be mitigated enough to the point of not being the only determining factor. ... if lag had something to do with that by affecting their play due to being inexperienced with it then they should have prepared for it. It's not like the koreans are unaware of latency issues, they accepted the invite to this tournament with a 5 figure prize pool. This isn't BW, koreans are not always going to be better and to close I'm sure the lag affected Genius' forge so badly that it didn't start a single upgrade until the 20 minute mark zzz...
STUPIDEST STATEMENT Ever !!!
"Preparing for lag" ... heheh, give me a break.
"to offset the lag disadvantage" ... good god, yeah stupidest statement ever.
I definitely think it's a lag issue. Most of the games were close. Without lags, it'd be a lot different.
Point is: you can't use this tournament to compare skills of koreans vs. foreigners.
User was warned for this post
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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 27 2011 15:07 Crt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
It's an obvious difference but if you prepare for it it can be mitigated enough to the point of not being the only determining factor. ... if lag had something to do with that by affecting their play due to being inexperienced with it then they should have prepared for it. It's not like the koreans are unaware of latency issues, they accepted the invite to this tournament with a 5 figure prize pool. This isn't BW, koreans are not always going to be better and to close I'm sure the lag affected Genius' forge so badly that it didn't start a single upgrade until the 20 minute mark zzz... STUPIDEST STATEMENT Ever !!! "Preparing for lag" ... heheh, give me a break. "to offset the lag disadvantage" ... good god, yeah stupidest statement ever. I definitely think it's a lag issue. Most of the games were close. Without lags, it'd be a lot different. Point is: you can't use this tournament to compare skills of koreans vs. foreigners.
Of course you can prepare for it. What's so stupid about saying that? Jinro and Tyler seem to think you can, and so do all the oGs players who did well in FXOpen on NA.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366
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We need the first SC2 bonjwa to put order in all scene.
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On March 27 2011 14:39 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:34 Caphe wrote:
Tips for Liquidbet, bet against Korean EVERY games from now on.
At first I don't believe the lag rumors but really, after watching today's game and from all the result up to now in TSL.
Lag is a crucial factor here, how can 90% of people outside Korea beat people in Korea(incule Koreans and foreigners in Korea). And we just saw Code A Korea roflstomped foreigners not long a go in Assembly.
@s4life and others who say lag doesn't the major factor: In high level play, you need the perfect condition for the players in order for them to shine. Even a slight delay thus lead to a mistake will be emphasized on cos your opponent is very good too.
I play on NA with suttle every 10 secs but its not a big deal since I'm diamond just like my opponent, at this low level, you can make many mistake and still breeze thru cos your opponent is bad :D. Ret won Assembly though over MorroW so I don't know where you got your information from. 2 Koreans made it extremely far in the FXOpen so apparently lag only affects players in the TSL?
Oops, I must have Assembly messed up with the recent tourney @ Cebit where Korean took top 3.
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On March 27 2011 14:55 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 14:35 edwrodrig wrote:
I don´t understand the world
Random foreigners defeat CodeS
Top Foreigners defeat Random Foreigners
CodeA defeat Top Foreigners
CodeS defeat CodeA
Then who´s the best? Your statements are not accurate, I'd hardly call Adel, Qxc, and Goody "random foreigners." Also, judging by how many Code A advanced into Code S, the GSTL results where many Code S lost to non-Code S and how many Code S players are slumping recently, its hard to even say Code S has the very best players. I like to think of Code S more as being the best "consistent" players. Since the road to Code S is quite difficult. So while there might be more raw talent and skill in the lower leagues atm that could take games off the current Code S players I doubt that they would be as consistent as the people currently in Code S. The GOM World Championship will be interesting to see how both sides stack in a more neutral environment. In the end you're only as good as your last match.
most code S players though, are far from being consistent... the turnover rate is pretty high as of now.
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are there vods or replays for day 3 out? im sorry if ive missed it
sidenote: go naniwa!
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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 27 2011 15:19 Caliber wrote:
are there vods or replays for day 3 out? im sorry if ive missed it
sidenote: go naniwa!
VODs will be released tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
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thanks for the quick response. no need to apologize and thanks for all your hard work!
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On March 27 2011 14:54 veraliar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:35 edwrodrig wrote:
I don´t understand the world
Random foreigners defeat CodeS
Top Foreigners defeat Random Foreigners
CodeA defeat Top Foreigners
CodeS defeat CodeA
Then who´s the best? Pretty sure it's OGSMC
speaking of mc...
His play didnt seem effected by lag
game 1 - 3 gate rush didnt lose a unit to 30-40 lings and queens with great micro
game 2 - 3 base perfect macro and laid down FFs like a champ
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+ Show Spoiler +
THIS. PLEASE everyone look at this. Distance doesn't mean everything, but rather the fiber optic cables.
Not to mention after the earth quake, one of the main fiber optic lines spanning from Japan to the West Coast of the US was damaged, meaning a lot of traffic was rerouted on already congested internet lines.
Sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling.
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On March 27 2011 15:29 ct2299 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +THIS. PLEASE everyone look at this. Distance doesn't mean everything, but rather the fiber optic cables. Not to mention after the earth quake, one of the main fiber optic lines spanning from Japan to the West Coast of the US was damaged, meaning a lot of traffic was rerouted on already congested internet lines. Sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling.
Please read Jinro's post about lag from KA to NA. You are right, sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling. How about we listen to the guy who has been playing KR to NA for a couple of months where he is saying the lag has been greatly overstated on this forum. Yes there is lag, but it is not 2 seconds like Boxer's gf said.
I really can't believe people on here. This is a foreigner community, yet at every chance they get, they completely shit on foreign players. They do it in TSL threads saying they only win cause of lag, they do it in the NASL thread saying they don't deserve those spots and so on. It is incredibly disappointing to read. QXC is a pretty fucking good player. AdelScott has a very unique play style and it showed today. Goody is just a mech beast that even won without building a tank in game 2. Give these guys credit.
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On March 27 2011 15:29 ct2299 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +THIS. PLEASE everyone look at this. Distance doesn't mean everything, but rather the fiber optic cables. Not to mention after the earth quake, one of the main fiber optic lines spanning from Japan to the West Coast of the US was damaged, meaning a lot of traffic was rerouted on already congested internet lines. Sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling.
Seeing as the image was copyrighted in 2006 so figuring that the data is from 2005 at the earliest, I looked for current data and found this which qualitatively makes US-EU very similar to US-Asia.
Source:http://www.telegeography.com
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On March 27 2011 15:44 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 15:29 ct2299 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +THIS. PLEASE everyone look at this. Distance doesn't mean everything, but rather the fiber optic cables. Not to mention after the earth quake, one of the main fiber optic lines spanning from Japan to the West Coast of the US was damaged, meaning a lot of traffic was rerouted on already congested internet lines. Sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling. Please read Jinro's post about lag from KA to NA. You are right, sometimes the complete lack of understanding and ignorance of people here is mind boggling. How about we listen to the guy who has been playing KR to NA for a couple of months where he is saying the lag has been greatly overstated on this forum. Yes there is lag, but it is not 2 seconds like Boxer's gf said. I really can't believe people on here. This is a foreigner community, yet at every chance they get, they completely shit on foreign players. They do it in TSL threads saying they only win cause of lag, they do it in the NASL thread saying they don't deserve those spots and so on. It is incredibly disappointing to read. QXC is a pretty fucking good player. AdelScott has a very unique play style and it showed today. Goody is just a mech beast that even won without building a tank in game 2. Give these guys credit.
And did you not then read the other post that someone wrote in that same thread with posts where Jinro had complained about lag before?
I didn't say it's 2 seconds, I'm just saying regardless of how good an ISP is, it doesn't matter when the inherent infrastructure is vastly different for connecting Asia to NA and EU to NA.
I'm not trying to take credit away from Adel, he's a great player. QXC I have my doubts after IEM and some other things. Goody, I absolutely don't think he deserved to win seeing how he's played against some people. Sorry I just have to state that. Great job to Adel, and I definitely think MVP deserved to lose as well, he's been playing quite poorly lately, I would say the same to Genius as well.
I think Jinro is great, lots of respect to the guy, but I see a vast difference in what he's saying in his opening post in that thread, with the other posts someone else pasted in the thread later on. Bear in mind when Jinro was expressing disappointment and frustration with his game vs Select, it was pre-earthquake as well.
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Hmmm... Foreigners played nicely, however, TSL seems to be proving that online tournaments with koreans may not be viable. Not only because there's lag issues (Sometimes massive as in boxer's games), but because entertainment and show value diminishes drastically when you know a player's handicapped.
I'm not taking anything away from foreigners, they played better, even if it proves nothing as to who is the better player, they just outplayed koreans this time. However, I think that the show is hurt enough by these setbacks that it the tournament might be better if only foreigners play in it. It even hurts the quality of the discussion aroundthe games, which sucks even harder. For example, in boxer's games, he was ridiculously passive, he just massed 200/200, the A-moved and shot some EMPs to win. Boxer doesn't play like this. That playstyle was clearly tailored to deal with lag, and the result was much less appealing than a regular boxer game.
We'll see in world championship how it compares. World team features some of the greatest foreigner players, so it's gonna be interesting to see how they fare on a live tournament. Last time koreans raped on IEM, it's time for payback.
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I'm a European and play on the US sever. I can certainly state that lag fucks the gameplay up for me big time. And I only have about 140 ms delay.
You really need to prepare and train for lag to be able to win with it, it can throw you off immensely.
Sadly, technology isn't there yet for a proper online global tournament 
Not saying it can be done, it obviously can and it's fun and all, but it's just not proper in terms of not being on par with locally held events.
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On March 27 2011 14:34 Caphe wrote:
@s4life and others who say lag doesn't the major factor: In high level play, you need the perfect condition for the players in order for them to shine. Even a slight delay thus lead to a mistake will be emphasized on cos your opponent is very good too.
The perfect conditions do not exist in pro sports of any kind. Playable conditions is what most would hope for and typically get.
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Why are we still talking about lag?
Yeah, it makes a difference, but doesn't hurt the Koreans as much as you think. The losses by the Koreans have very little to do with lag at all.
The reason foreigners have done well is because they've been able to study their opponents very thoroughly. On the other hand, the Koreans know VERY LITTLE about the opponents they are facing.
If you look at tournaments that involve a large number of games over 2-3 days (IEM, and the on-going FXOpen), then you'll see that Koreans still, for the most part, dominate.
TLDR:
Knowing your opponent can make up for a considerable skill gap, and this is exactly why we've seen so many upsets.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/re5Pd.gif)
