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On March 16 2011 06:10 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:06 Pokebunny wrote:
Then they will participate in our scene if it becomes bigger than GSL. Exactly. When foreigners go to Korea, they're making a commitment to that scene for the majority of the time. They are going to have to make a commitment also. They would have to come live out here for the season just like foreigners are doing in Korea. You're argument makes no sense. Just admit you don't want them in the league because they are superior players.
What? Two things:
- They only have to live in NA for ONE WEEK EVERY THREE MONTHS for the finals.
- I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring.
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On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea.
Because clearly the ability to play starcraft 2 on a competitive level is directly correlated with your ability to speak a foreign language.
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On March 16 2011 06:11 HeroHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:07 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 06:05 Finrod1 wrote:On March 16 2011 05:31 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 03:37 thesighter wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. What would you propose then as a test for communicating "properly." Literacy tests? Heard those worked quite well for blacks back in the day. The NrG manager and you should be bashed for harboring and promoting racist thought. Suffice it to say, I think that the majority of TL would rather watch July play in the USA, then you or NrG. User was banned for this post. What makes you think it has anything to do with race? None of my points have anything against Koreans. I respect them immensely, but I'd prefer not to see them in NASL. If a Korean player were to live in the US and interact with our community and players, that would be fantastic. As it is, I don't expect that to happen. For example, I think someone like Cella would definitely be more acceptable. Well i can understand your argument, but honestly you are not the best person to deliver it. Due to the simple fact that you can't be objective as a player who is going to have a very hard time against any of those startale players. I don't expect to be in the league. I have stated multiple times that my opinion on Koreans is purely from me as a spectator. As a player I'd rather just see North Americans, as obviously that gives myself a better chance. But your no where near top 50 so...
In North America? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find 50 North American players who are clearly far above me.
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On March 16 2011 06:11 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Because clearly the ability to play starcraft 2 on a competitive level is directly correlated with your ability to speak a foreign language.
What? It's more about the fact that they'd actually be interesting to the community. I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that games between foreigners, even in GSL, draw less interest.
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Pokebunny, stop.
There's a fundamental difference here: Some people, like myself, want to see the best of the best play against eachother in a big tournament. Yeah, that means tons of competitors will be Korean.
You on the other hand want the NASL to be a tournament that explicitly doesn't allow the best to play. If you want to see that, watch any weekly $100 tournament. The NASL is one of the highest paying leagues and I see no reason why it should be for comparatively bad players with the actual good players kept out.
Drawing interest in the community is cool, but having games between comparatively bad players is not. I'd rather watch MC vs. MVP any day over Pokebunny vs. Avilo.
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On March 16 2011 05:58 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb. You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them? In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid. Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league.
I'm not sure i get why we need so much to keep the koreans away from us? Does it have to do with them having such a bigger market all this time?
As for just doing this for the money, these days i keep hearing about this or that korean player recognizing the foreign fans (which i think is new). They've been alone on top for so long because for so long foreigners didn't have much at all going on. I dunno, but i think you underestimate their interest in the foreign scene, blossoming as it is now. I remember Fruitdealer saying in his interview back in december that the thing he liked most in blizzcon was how cheerful the fans were (compared to quiet koreans). I think the reason we don't see them out more already is because the GSL is the priority (understandably) and that that particular schedule is pretty tight... and conflicts with pretty much everything else. Shouldn't conflict with NASL though, or so they say.
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i really dont see why people are upset about the Startale videos, if anything i'd say that them doing it in english shows that they actually DO care, sure they dont speak perfect english, but the fact that they are willing to give it a shot rather than rambling on in korean with subtitles rolling just shows that they really do care. Also id love to see pokebunny doing a korean speech.
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On March 16 2011 06:11 Pokebunny wrote:
What? Two things:
- They only have to live in NA for ONE WEEK EVERY THREE MONTHS for the finals.
I didn't see that they get to skip the group play and go straight the finals. My bad, totally missed that.
- I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring.
lol... You just made two statements that contradict each other.
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If western esports really wants to become as competitive and high skilled as the Korean one I think its a neccesity to have a couple of best Koreans in the NASL. For benchmarking western players and for everyone to aim to become better players.
I'm not saying western players aren't as good, I'm sure a lot are just as good! But without them if a western person wins, he will always be the one who won that big ass tournament because there were no Koreans. I'm quite confident after 3 seasons of NASL we will have 2 non Korean winners
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On March 16 2011 06:14 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:11 Pokebunny wrote:
What? Two things:
- They only have to live in NA for ONE WEEK EVERY THREE MONTHS for the finals. I didn't see that they get to skip the group play and go straight the finals. My bad, totally missed that. Show nested quote +- I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring. lol... You just made two statements that contradict each other.
You don't have to live in NA during group play... so yea. One week every three months.
Don't see where I contradicted myself.
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On March 16 2011 06:12 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:11 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Because clearly the ability to play starcraft 2 on a competitive level is directly correlated with your ability to speak a foreign language. What? It's more about the fact that they'd actually be interesting to the community. I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that games between foreigners, even in GSL, draw less interest.
What the fuck is "the community"? Most pros dont even post on teamliquid.net and dont participate in any community related event. I learned more about certain pros from watching these videos then whatever community interaction they had with us the last 6 years
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On March 16 2011 06:12 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:11 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Because clearly the ability to play starcraft 2 on a competitive level is directly correlated with your ability to speak a foreign language. What? It's more about the fact that they'd actually be interesting to the community. I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that games between foreigners, even in GSL, draw less interest.
What? That's not at all what you said. Reread your post I quoted and try to derive what you just responded from it.
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Anyone who's saying I am racist for my joke, or at the fact that i'd prefer to not see any koreans (living and playing in korea) in the NASL is pretty obnoxious and ignorant. My team is comprised of a lot of koreans living in USA/Canada atm. We have 4-5 koreans currently in my team, and I love koreans <3
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On March 16 2011 06:17 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:12 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 06:11 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Because clearly the ability to play starcraft 2 on a competitive level is directly correlated with your ability to speak a foreign language. What? It's more about the fact that they'd actually be interesting to the community. I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that games between foreigners, even in GSL, draw less interest. What? That's not at all what you said. Reread your post I quoted and try to derive what you just responded from it.
I said I don't like random guys going to GSL without learning any Korean, because then they'd actually be somewhat part of the community they were moving into.
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On March 16 2011 05:58 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb. You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them? In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid. Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league.
This blanket sweep of Koreans from an international tournament is divisive and your will for further separation of the two communities (Korean and international) lacks substance, with the claim that a tournament should needs a certain standard of English and be inclusive of all nationalities apart from one is unprecedented and discriminative. Tarring one nationality with the same brush in that "they don't want to be part of the scene" is disgusting, I'll point you to Ace's part in IEM where frankly he was a great personality, playing a far greater role in that respect than many of the so-called "foreigners". As far as I understand it, the main requirements for the tournament are previous success within the game and a character that will prove to be appealing and exciting to the audience and therefore Korean's should have as much of a chance of fulfilling these requirement as any other.
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On March 16 2011 06:16 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:14 chonkyfire wrote:On March 16 2011 06:11 Pokebunny wrote:
What? Two things:
- They only have to live in NA for ONE WEEK EVERY THREE MONTHS for the finals. I didn't see that they get to skip the group play and go straight the finals. My bad, totally missed that. - I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring. lol... You just made two statements that contradict each other. You don't have to live in NA during group play... so yea. One week every three months. Don't see where I contradicted myself.
You don't understand, they still have to commit time and practice. If you think they're not going to practice for this because it would be a free win then I've lost faith in our foreign players already.
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[B]On March 16 2011 06:16 Pokebunny wrote:
You don't have to live in NA during group play... so yea. One week every three months.
Don't see where I contradicted myself.
I wasn't aware that group play wasn't LAN, pretty terrible move on NASL's part but whatever.
- I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring.
You contradicted yourself your here. By saying you don't want to see koreans dominate then it has everything to do with skill. Not sure what you don't get about this.
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On March 16 2011 01:35 RevRich wrote:
People fail to realize that the GSL has a HUGE barrier to entry for us foreigners. If Joe Starcraft player wants to play in the GSL he needs to make a long-term commitment and turn his entire life upside down to do so. I don't see anyone complaining or accusing GOM of racism for the way they run their tournament (they offer no online qualification/advancement). I feel that it would be a disservice to NAers to have Korean players advancing in the NASL strictly through online play and then only having to commit to a short-term trip to NA to compete and collect the huge prize.
I don't know about you, but watching some code A guys destroy everyone at IEM wasn't fun to spectate. I want to see players that have an even footing battle it out. In my opinion watching Koreans (12hrs+ a day practicing - its their entire life) competing against foreigners not living in Korea (4-6hrs+ a day practicing - its not their entire life) just isn't compelling competition. Like I've said before on this topic - when our culture supports starcraft players the way Korea's culture does - I'll be all for having a true global starcraft tournament. Unfortunately, our cultures are no where near the same in that regard.
I'm new to the community so maybe I don't understand the rabid fanaticism for Korean players. Why do people in NA/Europe respect/root for Korean players almost as much, if not more, than their own countrymen? I suppose people just want to the see the best of the best. I'm still of the opinion that Korean players are better at SC2 because they practice 10x harder than foreigners.
Their culture allows such dedication, ours does not.
So why would i want to watch a bunch of College slackers who take Esports as a hobby, a bunch of self called pros who play for a few hours and call it a good day. Why would i root for a Foreigner? Because he`s not asian? Or because he`s just not from Korea? I feel like i have more in common with a dedicated guy like Boxer or a confident guy like Mc than some of the guys i`ve seen in VoDs.
I root for Huk, because he`s a fellow Quebecer, and so do i for Kiwikaki, but that`s it. Why would i root for some dudes from the States or Sweden? I like Jinro because he`s a skilled guy. I like TlO for the same reasons. If you aint got the skills, im not gonna root for you because of the flag youre born under. And if the foreigner aint from your country, why rooting for the guy? It just doesnt make any sense.
It`s like if english people wouldnt enjoy Ronaldiniho playing or Messi, just because they`re not english and they`re just superior players.
And i might say something controversial here, but Koreans arent better just because they practice harder. They have, generally, the skillset for the game.
And if you didnt like July`s application comparatively to one like AVilo, it just screams bias.
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On March 16 2011 06:20 GP wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:16 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 06:14 chonkyfire wrote:On March 16 2011 06:11 Pokebunny wrote:
What? Two things:
- They only have to live in NA for ONE WEEK EVERY THREE MONTHS for the finals. I didn't see that they get to skip the group play and go straight the finals. My bad, totally missed that. - I never said it had nothing to do with skill - I made the point that I think if the top GSL players were to come and dominate the top 4, that would be boring. lol... You just made two statements that contradict each other. You don't have to live in NA during group play... so yea. One week every three months. Don't see where I contradicted myself. You don't understand, they still have to commit time and practice. If you think they're not going to practice for this because it would be a free win then I've lost faith in our foreign players already.
I think MVP/MC/July/MKP/Nestea would 9-0 (8-1 at worst) the group stage without individual preparation. I thought that was kind of a given.
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EPT
