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On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb.
You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them?
In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid.
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On March 16 2011 05:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb. You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them? In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid.
Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league.
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On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. When I want to watch Koreans, I watch GSL. I think it would be fantastic to watch a season of players I know as part of our community over an entire season competing against eachother. It's not racist at all, it's just what I want to see.
When I want to watch the best sc2 in the world, I watch GSL.
It isn't racist exactly... but it's discrimination for sure. You are discriminating against them because of their nationality.
On March 16 2011 05:49 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:47 chonkyfire wrote:
Pokebunny -
I don't understand why koreans have to interact with a community of which they don't speak the same language as to play. If they can meet all the necessary requirements to participate, why can't they?
Would you be okay with them competing if they destroyed the NA ladder with probably near 80% win rates? Because they probably could easily. Sure, then they'd be like Idra/Jinro type people.
You have it backwards. Jinro/Idra are the korean type. The reason they were/are in korea is because they were actually good enough to compete.
Korea unbecoming the mecca of starcraft 2 was going to happen eventually, and now it's just starting and you want to limit it to a non-korean only community just because you don't want to see them dominate the competition. Foreigners will never step up their game if they do not have to.
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There are many tournaments that koreans dont enter, for the NASL to produce a return on the investment they need it to be a global product. Seeing as starcraft is so mainstream in korea it would be a crazy decision to exclude them. They wont, i assure you. Now, if they were to invite the best 50 players in the world i would think around 45 would be korean, but they wont do that either. As for korean bashing over not speaking english, how is your korean?
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On March 16 2011 05:58 Pokebunny wrote:
[
Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league.
Yes or no, being apart of a "community" is more important than actual talent?
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On March 16 2011 05:58 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. When I want to watch Koreans, I watch GSL. I think it would be fantastic to watch a season of players I know as part of our community over an entire season competing against eachother. It's not racist at all, it's just what I want to see. When I want to watch the best sc2 in the world, I watch GSL. It isn't racist exactly... but it's discrimination for sure. You are discriminating against them because of their nationality. Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:47 chonkyfire wrote:
Pokebunny -
I don't understand why koreans have to interact with a community of which they don't speak the same language as to play. If they can meet all the necessary requirements to participate, why can't they?
Would you be okay with them competing if they destroyed the NA ladder with probably near 80% win rates? Because they probably could easily. Sure, then they'd be like Idra/Jinro type people. You have it backwards. Jinro/Idra are the korean type. The reason they were/are in korea is because they were actually good enough to compete. Korea unbecoming the mecca of starcraft 2 was going to happen eventually, and now it's just starting and you want to limit it to a non-korean only community just because you don't want to see them dominate the competition. Foreigners will never step up their game if they do not have to.
Not discriminating for nationality! I already stated I'd be fine with Koreans who were to actively participate in the foreigner scene, i.e Cella.
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On March 16 2011 05:55 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:53 GP wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 ZlaSHeR wrote:
I'm with you there, the Startale apps show no signs of them wanting to really do anything except make a quick buck, but quite frankly, they aren't going to come live in LA for a few weeks to compete, and it seems like they're not even acknowledging that fact. They aren't entering for the community at all. I think it'd be fun to have one or two Koreans that have been part of the foreigner scene like a Cella, but in the end if the idea of the NASL is to grow foreign esports then why should they invite 6 koreans from one team that was able to write a script up for the video.
I can see July play in the GSL, I'd rather see dde and Pokebunny in the NASL. You see, I think that's just stupid to close off the tournament like that. iNcontroL has said that their aim is to have the best players in the world battle it out. You can't do that without the top Koreans. There's nowhere in the rules that says "oh you have to be part of our community to enter." To shut off the biggest competitive scene for Starcraft will only fracture the scenes even more. Of coarse they're entering the tournaments for the money, but who are you to say they aren't professional SC players because they don't love StarCraft? Who's to say people don't enter MLG to "make a quick buck." iNcontrol has also said a big part of the league is to build up teams, rivalries, and personalities that fans can rally around. While I think some of the Startale players (July for example) would fit that goal well many of the others I'm not so sure about. Cella would also certainly fill that because he's baller. I'd like Korean players to get in because they fit the goals of the league, not just because they're Korean.
You can't build rivalries when you prevent players from ever playing each other. I didn't say Cella shouldn't play, I think he'd fit just fine. Part of the aim of the league is to build rivalries too. There could easily already be some sort of rivalry with Ace and Squirtle. You'll never be able to build any sort of rivalry if you prevent people from playing because they can't speak English well.
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On March 16 2011 05:58 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb. You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them? In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid. Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league.
You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy.
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Aren't you attacking them for applying without putting a lot of effort in wanting to be a part of the scene. That you think it was rude that they wanted to join the tournament without being able to communicate and just wanting the easy money "with as little effort given as possible"
If that was not your point then i apologize.
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On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:45 Archvil3 wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. wow. You are still trying to defend that invites should be based on nationality and culture rather then skill. You are not even putting up sensible argument like the logistical nightmare it would be to incorporate the koreans in the league. You are saying and I quote: If a Korean player were to live in the US and interact with our community and players, that would be fantastic. As it is, I don't expect that to happen. For example, I think someone like Cella would definitely be more acceptable. That it's the culture difference and the fact that they dont actually live in the US that should ban them from the league. I'm speechless. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. When I want to watch Koreans, I watch GSL. I think it would be fantastic to watch a season of players I know as part of our community over an entire season competing against eachother. It's not racist at all, it's just what I want to see.
What is "Our community"?
You mean guys interacting on teamliquid.net? Well that is barely 0.5% of the high end pros at sc2 scene? Most pros dont post here or in any community. I think probably that many koreans want to be apart of this community, however as they cant speak english they cant interact with us which sucks. Just watch cellawerras stream where he sometimes bring korean pros on. They fucking love talking to us, they have just a fucking hard time speaking english which is really sad.
Like what the fuck is up with some people here. This league is the best of the best and therefore the best players should play in this league (logic). While their ladder does have more players playing at a semi-pro level, beating koreans arent as hard as it was in fucking brood war. While i do think there should be a limit about how many koreans can enter the tournament, excluding them would probably make the games less exciting, building less hype and just being fucking stupid.
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On March 16 2011 06:03 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:58 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:55 yoshi_yoshi wrote:On March 16 2011 05:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:45 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 05:41 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 16 2011 05:32 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 04:41 rlagksquf wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:
[quote]
?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. As little effort given as possible? GTFO kid. NASL seriously need to put some age restriction They can't possibly give less effort than reading a 1 min statement in a manner impossible to understand. At least practice a couple times to get it to be understandable. I doubt they purposefully did it that way, this isn't their native language, yet they tried. They could've just stood there, spoke in korean, and had text float across instead, but they opted to try to speak english as best they could to try to appease americans and hopefully their foreigner fans. It's kind of shitty that you're attacking their lack of english speaking ability as some sort of barrier for them to enter. What if GSL required you to submit korean applications, we'd be outraged, and i doubt they'd call any foreigner to WHO TRIED their best "giving low effort". I'm not screaming bloody racism or anything, i just don't see this as a reason to outright deny them. I didn't realize NASL application VODs were based on how witty or silly you can make it to get in. If that's the case I guess a lot of the straight up videos don't get in either, like TLO or SeleCT I think it would be fantastic if GSL required you to learn some korean. I don't want every kid who thinks he's half decent going to korea. Come on.. now you are just grasping at straws.. But in case you are really trying to make a valid argument, half decent in what? in starcraft or in korean language? Do you think it was rude for the TL guys to go and qualify for GSL despite not being able to speak Korean. Same with iNcontrol, Kiwikaki, Moonglade, Spades, etc. Do you think they were trying to get GSL bucks and fame without learning the language and thus they are putting minimal effort and thus it was rude? Yep. The people who just go for a week to try and qualify I think is dumb. You dodged the question - it doesn't matter whether it's dumb for them or not. Do you think it's rude? And also do you think GSL organizers should have held it against them? In the end, I think the NASL organizers will just choose who the community wants to see most, as it should be. IMO that includes a lot of top Koreans. It doesn't include ST player #3 though, even though he might be better than most foreigners. But either way, attacking ST player #3 for even applying is stupid. Dumb as in I'd prefer they didn't do it. "Rude"? No, it doesn't matter, but I'd rather see them stay in NA/EU. I don't think the Koreans are "rude", I'd just rather not see them. I'm not attacking them for applying, I'm saying I don't think they should be picked. I never once said they shouldn't try to get into the league. You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aren't you attacking them for applying without putting a lot of effort in wanting to be a part of the scene. That you think it was rude that they wanted to join the tournament without being able to communicate and just wanting the easy money "with as little effort given as possible" If that was not your point then i apologize.
I wasn't bashing the videos, I was bashing the fact that people think this is totally cool and acceptable to have in NASL.
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On March 16 2011 06:00 Pokebunny wrote:
Not discriminating for nationality! I already stated I'd be fine with Koreans who were to actively participate in the foreigner scene, i.e Cella.
Yes I don't get this argument? Why do they have to actively participate in the inferior foreign scene? What is your logic here?
This is a professional league for 400k over three seasons. It's not a high school starcraft league. I don't think you understand this. This could potentially be a bigger league than the GSL.
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Yeah! Let's keep the Koreans out because they're too good!
I hope the NFL kicks out the best 50 starters next season because it'll be so much better if we leave the best out!
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On March 16 2011 05:36 meRz wrote:This all really boils down to that the anti-koreans are shitting in their pants thinking about koreans coming in because they feel they are simply too good and cannot beat them. Why this attitude? Let them come! I'd love to play vs the top koreans, I don't care if they're in it to "steal my money", I really don't want the whole BW-attitude back again where it's the "newbie foreigners" doing their own thing while korea is the real deal and lightyears ahead of everyone else. We have all the means necessary (NASL!! Big teams, sponsors, players devoting all their time to this game) what says we cannot compete with the koreans? I feel like people have already "given up" on competing against the koreans, and it makes me really sad  .
I think this attitude comes also from the appearance that koreans seem to have more of a hard working and dedicated to one thing mentality than westerners. so more of them can live probably
better with this very strict and hard working progaming living conditions and this most of the time will give you in the long run an advantage over people which have a more laid back approach to the game or even do it besides university, going to school and so on.
I had this mentality difference feeling also when I read or saw something about japan. for example that some see their company as their family and are willing to stay in the office and work till late night because they are so dedicated to it.
so if this true and there will be always a difference in approaching the game from westernens and koreans due to mentality and cultural difference, then the scenes never will be 100% compatible and exacly the same. but maybe compromises are possible.
I like both parts of esports. I like to see perfection that is possible due to a Korean schedule of hard training and I also like to see europeans, americans etc which play successfull but live in a situation which I for myself can identify more.
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On March 16 2011 06:00 Pokebunny wrote:I already stated I'd be fine with Koreans who were to actively participate in the foreigner scene, i.e Cella.
they are trying to participate in the foreign scene with their application for the nasl.
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On March 16 2011 05:31 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:37 thesighter wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. What would you propose then as a test for communicating "properly." Literacy tests? Heard those worked quite well for blacks back in the day. The NrG manager and you should be bashed for harboring and promoting racist thought. Suffice it to say, I think that the majority of TL would rather watch July play in the USA, then you or NrG. User was banned for this post. What makes you think it has anything to do with race? None of my points have anything against Koreans. I respect them immensely, but I'd prefer not to see them in NASL. If a Korean player were to live in the US and interact with our community and players, that would be fantastic. As it is, I don't expect that to happen. For example, I think someone like Cella would definitely be more acceptable.
Well i can understand your argument, but honestly you are not the best person to deliver it. Due to the simple fact that you can't be objective as a player who is going to have a very hard time against any of those startale players.
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On March 16 2011 06:04 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:00 Pokebunny wrote:
Not discriminating for nationality! I already stated I'd be fine with Koreans who were to actively participate in the foreigner scene, i.e Cella. Yes I don't get this argument? Why do they have to actively participate in the inferior foreign scene? What is your logic here? This is a professional league for 400k over three seasons. It's not a high school starcraft league. I don't think you understand this. This could potentially be a bigger league than the GSL.
Then they will participate in our scene if it becomes bigger than GSL. Exactly. When foreigners go to Korea, they're making a commitment to that scene for the majority of the time.
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On March 16 2011 06:01 GP wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:55 Logo wrote:On March 16 2011 05:53 GP wrote:On March 16 2011 05:36 ZlaSHeR wrote:
I'm with you there, the Startale apps show no signs of them wanting to really do anything except make a quick buck, but quite frankly, they aren't going to come live in LA for a few weeks to compete, and it seems like they're not even acknowledging that fact. They aren't entering for the community at all. I think it'd be fun to have one or two Koreans that have been part of the foreigner scene like a Cella, but in the end if the idea of the NASL is to grow foreign esports then why should they invite 6 koreans from one team that was able to write a script up for the video.
I can see July play in the GSL, I'd rather see dde and Pokebunny in the NASL. You see, I think that's just stupid to close off the tournament like that. iNcontroL has said that their aim is to have the best players in the world battle it out. You can't do that without the top Koreans. There's nowhere in the rules that says "oh you have to be part of our community to enter." To shut off the biggest competitive scene for Starcraft will only fracture the scenes even more. Of coarse they're entering the tournaments for the money, but who are you to say they aren't professional SC players because they don't love StarCraft? Who's to say people don't enter MLG to "make a quick buck." iNcontrol has also said a big part of the league is to build up teams, rivalries, and personalities that fans can rally around. While I think some of the Startale players (July for example) would fit that goal well many of the others I'm not so sure about. Cella would also certainly fill that because he's baller. I'd like Korean players to get in because they fit the goals of the league, not just because they're Korean. You can't build rivalries when you prevent players from ever playing each other. I didn't say Cella shouldn't play, I think he'd fit just fine. Part of the aim of the league is to build rivalries too. There could easily already be some sort of rivalry with Ace and Squirtle. You'll never be able to build any sort of rivalry if you prevent people from playing because they can't speak English well.
You defiently can. Rivalrys are based most on the games you play and what those games consisted of. Not what you "chat" in between the games and from inteviews. While indeed we probably wont have a 2nd idra from the korean players, we defiently can see some hype building up. Like so many good rivalries exist in SCBW: Savior vs Nal_Ra, Boxer vs Nada, Jaedong vs Flash etc. etc. and those were build by the foregin community just based on their games
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On March 16 2011 06:05 Finrod1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 05:31 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 03:37 thesighter wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. What would you propose then as a test for communicating "properly." Literacy tests? Heard those worked quite well for blacks back in the day. The NrG manager and you should be bashed for harboring and promoting racist thought. Suffice it to say, I think that the majority of TL would rather watch July play in the USA, then you or NrG. User was banned for this post. What makes you think it has anything to do with race? None of my points have anything against Koreans. I respect them immensely, but I'd prefer not to see them in NASL. If a Korean player were to live in the US and interact with our community and players, that would be fantastic. As it is, I don't expect that to happen. For example, I think someone like Cella would definitely be more acceptable. Well i can understand your argument, but honestly you are not the best person to deliver it. Due to the simple fact that you can't be objective as a player who is going to have a very hard time against any of those startale players.
I don't expect to be in the league. I have stated multiple times that my opinion on Koreans is purely from me as a spectator. As a player I'd rather just see North Americans, as obviously that gives myself a better chance.
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On March 16 2011 06:06 Pokebunny wrote:
Then they will participate in our scene if it becomes bigger than GSL. Exactly. When foreigners go to Korea, they're making a commitment to that scene for the majority of the time.
They are going to have to make a commitment also. They would have to come live out here for the season just like foreigners are doing in Korea. You're argument makes no sense. Just admit you don't want them in the league because they are superior players.
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On March 16 2011 06:07 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:05 Finrod1 wrote:On March 16 2011 05:31 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 03:37 thesighter wrote:On March 15 2011 23:48 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 21:48 Nimic wrote:
I'm loving the argument that the Koreans shouldn't be let in because they haven't been involved in the foreigner scene much. For one thing, they sort of have, lately. Dreamhack, IEM, FXOpen(i)s, etc. It's got to start somewhere. And therein lies the second point. There's a logical disconnect somewhere in denying someone the chance to be involved in the foreigner scene because they haven't been a part of the foreigner scene.
You can laugh all you will at their minute-or-less videos (the "jibberish" comment from the Nrg fellow I have never heard of was particularly classy), but this shows that they want to be part of our scene. Is it because of money? Who cares if it is? For one thing it probably isn't, not completely. I'm sure they are like any other people, and would love the chance to travel to different places and compete, perhaps gaining a ton of fans you didn't even know where there in the process. And it's not like Foreigner pro-gamers don't care about money.
I think that if the NASL organizers restricted Korean entries into the league too much, it would betray their stated goal. Namely to have the worlds best players competing. Obviously there should be some sort of restriction, so that all of the players aren't Korean (though I have my doubts that that many Koreans would even try to get in), but we need a fair few Koreans for this to be legitimate.
Sure, a Korean could end up winning the first few seasons. Or Idra could. Or Ret. Or WhiteRA. Either way, can you imagine the publicity the NASL would get in the SC2 community, or even the gaming community in general, the first time a foreigner beat a fairly known Korean? It would make it all worth it. ?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy. What would you propose then as a test for communicating "properly." Literacy tests? Heard those worked quite well for blacks back in the day. The NrG manager and you should be bashed for harboring and promoting racist thought. Suffice it to say, I think that the majority of TL would rather watch July play in the USA, then you or NrG. User was banned for this post. What makes you think it has anything to do with race? None of my points have anything against Koreans. I respect them immensely, but I'd prefer not to see them in NASL. If a Korean player were to live in the US and interact with our community and players, that would be fantastic. As it is, I don't expect that to happen. For example, I think someone like Cella would definitely be more acceptable. Well i can understand your argument, but honestly you are not the best person to deliver it. Due to the simple fact that you can't be objective as a player who is going to have a very hard time against any of those startale players. I don't expect to be in the league. I have stated multiple times that my opinion on Koreans is purely from me as a spectator. As a player I'd rather just see North Americans, as obviously that gives myself a better chance.
But your no where near top 50 so...
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EPT
