EPT[GSL] Open S1 - Ro32 Day 4 - Page 156
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
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Lurker87
United States172 Posts
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RedMooN09
United States24 Posts
But yeah, definitely the best player will win. If you saw how *SPOILER ALERT* Tester beasted his opponent's 2 gate proxy with just 1 gate, u know what I mean... <_< | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
 If Hyperbud somehow manages to beat Tester he will be the most hated pro in the SC2 community. | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
On September 21 2010 09:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Watching the TLO set was kinda like if Rambo got into a fight with an army and somehow managed to kill everyone with a spoon. Then the next day he accidentally falls off his roof while cleaning the drains and dies. Hyperdub won fair and square, sure, but talk about a terrible end to what started as the best scII set ever. I didn't think it could get much worse after the Idra upset; I was wrong. About the only thing worth watching now is Check and Cool, aside from that I think I'd rather watch paint dry. Awesome rambo analogy. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 21 2010 05:09 hydraden wrote: That's just your opinion, and he has not actually win anything yet. In your mouth, he's like nada already. In BW proscene, this kind of so called talents pop up every month. Actually, he won the recent sc2casts.com invitational beating Dimaga in the finals, as well as several go4sc2 cups and a zotac cup. Also, I don't see how you're actually answering what the previous post said. Even if we made the false assumption that he hasn't won anything yet, the post is explicit that TLO is "creative and entertaining," not dominating in terms of 1st place wins. Anyways, I'ma just throw my hat onto the gargantuan pile going "boo hyperdubcheese," lol. | ||
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MasterFwiffo
United States97 Posts
I'm so bitter about Cheeses right now, it's not even funny. *And not like 'Oh no, fast banshees and reaper play is totally cheesy', I mean like Cannon Rushes and Proxy Gateways/Raxs Every Single Game. Even got hit with an (admittidly creative) ZvZ cheese where the guy did a fast Pool (Not 6 Pool fast, but still fast) and planted a Spine Crawler down right as the zerglings hit. I didn't have the faintest idea what to do - by the time I was able to deal with the zerglings, the crawler was nearly finished. | ||
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StunnerZ4
38 Posts
Just because Hyperdub did a proxy rax to sweep TLO doesn't mean that he's a newbie for pulling a strategy that he knew his opponent would fail to counter. The reason I brought up the whole comparision issue is because Hyperdub played some strong macro/micro game's against his opponents whereas Davit, did not. Hyperdub "cheesing" or "agressively tatically rushing" only makes him unpredictable because he could do either/or types of games. Davit on the other hand had no Micro/Macro game and relyed on cheesing his opponents to win the game. This way clear in his game against NexGenius and "Clide" already knew what to expect from Davit which is "WHY DAVIT WAS DESTROYED BY A LAND SLIDE". If Davit had Micro and Macro skills and beat Nexgenius with that and then cheesed Clide both games the results would have been different because clide wouldn't have been expecting it. TLO in this case, didn't expect the cheese and Hyperdub knew it and acted on it. Smart play but seriously people need to stop "Oh Hyperdub is out next round just like Davit" just because he cheesed. GTFOH | ||
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:27 MasterFwiffo wrote: Is it just me, or are cheeses really prevalent and much more powerful in SC2 than they were in SC1? I get cheesed so often on the ladder (10-20 Plat) that it's not even funny*. And now TLO losing to a cheese in the biggest tournament in the world? I'm so bitter about Cheeses right now, it's not even funny. *And not like 'Oh no, fast banshees and reaper play is totally cheesy', I mean like Cannon Rushes and Proxy Gateways/Raxs Every Single Game. Even got hit with an (admittidly creative) ZvZ cheese where the guy did a fast Pool (Not 6 Pool fast, but still fast) and planted a Spine Crawler down right as the zerglings hit. I didn't have the faintest idea what to do - by the time I was able to deal with the zerglings, the crawler was nearly finished. Jaedong 4pooled Flash in the OSL finals, twice. | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:20 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Actually, he won the recent sc2casts.com invitational beating Dimaga in the finals, as well as several go4sc2 cups and a zotac cup. Also, I don't see how you're actually answering what the previous post said. Even if we made the false assumption that he hasn't won anything yet, the post is explicit that TLO is "creative and entertaining," not dominating in terms of 1st place wins. Anyways, I'ma just throw my hat onto the gargantuan pile going "boo hyperdubcheese," lol. So did you actually watch the TLO vs Dimaga casts? TLO basically cheesed his wins as well. Somehow it's ok for him to do it but not OK for Hyperdub? Double standards much? | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:29 StunnerZ4 wrote: Alright I'm tired of seeing comparisions of "Davit" vs "Hyperdub". Just because Hyperdub did a proxy rax to sweep TLO doesn't mean that he's a newbie for pulling a strategy that he knew his opponent would fail to counter. The reason I brought up the whole comparision issue is because Hyperdub played some strong macro/micro game's against his opponents whereas Davit, did not. Hyperdub "cheesing" or "agressively tatically rushing" only makes him unpredictable because he could do either/or types of games. Davit on the other hand had no Micro/Macro game and relyed on cheesing his opponents to win the game. This way clear in his game against NexGenius and "Clide" already knew what to expect from Davit which is "WHY DAVIT WAS DESTROYED BY A LAND SLIDE". If Davit had Micro and Macro skills and beat Nexgenius with that and then cheesed Clide both games the results would have been different because clide wouldn't have been expecting it. TLO in this case, didn't expect the cheese and Hyperdub knew it and acted on it. Smart play but seriously people need to stop "Oh Hyperdub is out next round just like Davit" just because he cheesed. GTFOH Part of why the Davit incidence of cheese was so "predictable" later was kinda, ya know, because there was a later, that it was done in the first game instead of the last game. It's also not a strategy "he knew his opponent would fail to counter" because as so many times people have emphasized, it was through sheer luck they were positioned as such and that he got such an early scouting of TLO... | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:50 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Part of why the Davit incidence of cheese was so "predictable" later was kinda, ya know, because there was a later, that it was done in the first game instead of the last game. It's also not a strategy "he knew his opponent would fail to counter" because as so many times people have emphasized, it was through sheer luck they were positioned as such and that he got such an early scouting of TLO... I don't really agree on both points. If you have just played a very long first game which you lost, and then despite the psychological uphill battle you managed to win the second game, the chances of a long third game are reduced a little. In this case, TLO should have scouted for the possibility of a proxy or any other strategy which ends the game quickly. As for luck playing a role in the cheese... it works both ways. If you are in close positions, your scout will arrive early, but that also means that the opponent should be able to scout you early as well. It's not as though Hyperdub is able to get to TLO's base before TLO gets to his, they have equal opportunity to scout each other out. TLO messed up and went the wrong way, he also messed up by not actually scouting for the proxy. Now imagine if he missed the proxy but went the right way and saw that his opponent does not have a barracks in the base, that would be enough scouting information for him to take approproate measures. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 21 2010 16:00 hdkhang wrote: I don't really agree on both points. If you have just played a very long first game which you lost, and then despite the psychological uphill battle you managed to win the second game, the chances of a long third game are reduced a little. In this case, TLO should have scouted for the possibility of a proxy or any other strategy which ends the game quickly. As for luck playing a role in the cheese... it works both ways. If you are in close positions, your scout will arrive early, but that also means that the opponent should be able to scout you early as well. It's not as though Hyperdub is able to get to TLO's base before TLO gets to his, they have equal opportunity to scout each other out. TLO messed up and went the wrong way, he also messed up by not actually scouting for the proxy. Now imagine if he missed the proxy but went the right way and saw that his opponent does not have a barracks in the base, that would be enough scouting information for him to take approproate measures. There is no correlation at all between the circumstances of the first two games and the "chances of a long game [being] reduced a little." That's pure speculation. Second, your analysis about TLO's "mistake" only furthers the fact that hyperdub could not have known for sure that it would have worked, it's silly to think that he "knew" that TLO would mess up, that again would just be luck. | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:46 eNbee wrote: Jaedong 4pooled Flash in the OSL finals, twice. Don't you dare bring logic into SCII forum | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
And JD/Flash have both 'cheesed' players considered far below their caliber, they don't reserve it just for the highest stake games against each other. Flash has 8rax'd his fair share as well as taken the huge risk of 14cc against players that he really wouldn't need the macro advantage against. And there was that inexplicable 5 pool by JD against Skyhigh. It was unfortunate that TLO wasn't paying attention to the ramp at that exact time, if he was able to pull back those two rines maybe he could have worked a SCV surround miracle. | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 21 2010 16:06 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: There is no correlation at all between the circumstances of the first two games and the "chances of a long game [being] reduced a little." That's pure speculation. Second, your analysis about TLO's "mistake" only furthers the fact that hyperdub could not have known for sure that it would have worked, it's silly to think that he "knew" that TLO would mess up, that again would just be luck. You are saying that if a person cheeses first, that is a good indication that they will cheese again. That's pure speculation since the chances of a cheese working the second time around are reduced since the opponent is made aware of them and should take measures to ensure it doesn't happen twice - if they don't that is an error on their judgement. I'm saying that just because a person doesn't cheese first, does not reduce the likelihood they will cheese later on. The likelihood of cheese is deinitely increased though (even if only a little) since the chances of it working increase since after having played a person you get a feel for their openers and can determine if a cheese would be viable. Secondly, I never said that Hyperdub knew for sure it would work, that is why I maintain it is a risky play and had TLO scouted "properly" he would have a better chance to counter it. If you actually read what I said, I said that "luck" did not play a huge role in that game since it can be argued that poor judgement on TLO's side played a bigger role. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On September 21 2010 16:06 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: There is no correlation at all between the circumstances of the first two games and the "chances of a long game [being] reduced a little." That's pure speculation. Second, your analysis about TLO's "mistake" only furthers the fact that hyperdub could not have known for sure that it would have worked, it's silly to think that he "knew" that TLO would mess up, that again would just be luck. You can't be 100% certain of anything until you see it, but the fact is hyperdub played tlo twice, saw a weakness in his opponent, and went for a strat that would exploit that weakness. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, as shown by the tester game where he should have easily lost but his opponent made some crucial mistakes despite being in a position that he easily could have won. TLO didn't scout a close position and didn't have any solid early game defense, obviously that is his own fault for taking his own chances with his scouting pattern. And yea, at the minimum he should have at least scouted around his natural for proxy junk. The TLO fanboys hate on hyperdub for "taking a chance" with his proxy, they should hold TLO accountable for "taking a chance" with his scouting pattern that leaves him vulnerable to proxies. Also it isn't like hyperdub just blindly made his proxy buildings either, he saw the mineral patch, he knew the spot was hot, if it wasn't hot he probably would have just done a normal build, but he used all the information he had on TLO to his advantage, that information being TLO's playstyle, build orders, and the fact that in the game he actually saw that tlo was right there at the close position. He has probably played and watched TLO a lot in the gaming house, so maybe TLO is well known for scouting close air positions first, and some can exploit that weakness if they are close rush position. | ||
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divertiti
Canada106 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:46 eNbee wrote: Jaedong 4pooled Flash in the OSL finals, twice. lol, so much win. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 21 2010 16:47 hdkhang wrote: You are saying that if a person cheeses first, that is a good indication that they will cheese again. That's pure speculation since the chances of a cheese working the second time around are reduced since the opponent is made aware of them and should take measures to ensure it doesn't happen twice - if they don't that is an error on their judgement. I'm saying that just because a person doesn't cheese first, does not reduce the likelihood they will cheese later on. The likelihood of cheese is deinitely increased though (even if only a little) since the chances of it working increase since after having played a person you get a feel for their openers and can determine if a cheese would be viable. I am not saying that a person cheesing first increases the chance that they will cheese again. My statement was that there would be something to predict as a possibility as opposed to the blank slate where you've seen zero strategies a person has used against you in a game. "The likelyhood of cheese increasing is still speculation since there are still so many variables [the person's attitude toward cheese, the strategies they've practiced, and so on] to the point where you literally cannot make a probability claim since statistically that is extrapolation and invalid. Secondly, I never said that Hyperdub knew for sure it would work, Dude, I quoted you directly in my post, "he knew his opponent would fail to counter." The words speak for themselves. My argument about "luck" was not about some abstract force driving the universe, it was directly in the context of answering that quotation from your post, specifically noting that this was not based on some ingenious skill or strategy of hyperdub but a random guess on his part that relied on his opponent messing up rather than him doing well, which is why I find it so distasteful. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 21 2010 16:57 robertdinh wrote: You can't be 100% certain of anything until you see it, but the fact is hyperdub played tlo twice, saw a weakness in his opponent, and went for a strat that would exploit that weakness. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, as shown by the tester game where he should have easily lost but his opponent made some crucial mistakes despite being in a position that he easily could have won. TLO didn't scout a close position and didn't have any solid early game defense, obviously that is his own fault for taking his own chances with his scouting pattern. And yea, at the minimum he should have at least scouted around his natural for proxy junk. The TLO fanboys hate on hyperdub for "taking a chance" with his proxy, they should hold TLO accountable for "taking a chance" with his scouting pattern that leaves him vulnerable to proxies. Also it isn't like hyperdub just blindly made his proxy buildings either, he saw the mineral patch, he knew the spot was hot, if it wasn't hot he probably would have just done a normal build, but he used all the information he had on TLO to his advantage, that information being TLO's playstyle, build orders, and the fact that in the game he actually saw that tlo was right there at the close position. He has probably played and watched TLO a lot in the gaming house, so maybe TLO is well known for scouting close air positions first, and some can exploit that weakness if they are close rush position. The problem with this analysis is that the first two games don't really give an indication that cheese would be more effective. That kind of cheese success is premised on two things, micro-skill and early macro-builds. TLO's opening is not any macro-build, it was purely standard. Micro-wise, TLO only had issues with his middle-game transition with thors, not the early game. TLO did his stuff right, he got the surround, but Hyperdub had the critical mass to chew a way out of the workers. One could argue about the marine withdrawal at the start, but the difference between success and failure there is soo micro-scopic to the milliseconds (if even possible) that that cannot be blamed as a "failure."So that takes out any justification that cheese would be more effective. Also, your comparison of TLO's "risk" vs Hyperdubs is laughable. They are nowhere near the same degree of risk. TLO's mere "risk" is that he might lose to a potential cheese that might happen 1% of the time (if even that). Hyperdub's risk is an automatic one that happens 100% of the time. "and some can exploit that weakness if they are close rush position" The conditional statement demonstrates the luck-aspect that has people miffed. | ||
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