EPTHail SKS(aka TesteR) the Protoss GOD shall bring vengeance to them!!!
Their cheese will be lesser then a changeling. (Especially~~~ Hyperdub)
The Protoss GOD shall win it all~~~
[GSL] Open S1 - Ro32 Day 4 - Page 157
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Johnwe
Korea (South)3 Posts
Hail SKS(aka TesteR) the Protoss GOD shall bring vengeance to them!!! Their cheese will be lesser then a changeling. (Especially~~~ Hyperdub) The Protoss GOD shall win it all~~~ | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On September 21 2010 17:24 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: The problem with this analysis is that the first two games don't really give an indication that cheese would be more effective. That kind of cheese success is premised on two things, micro-skill and early macro-builds. TLO's opening is not any macro-build, it was purely standard. Micro-wise, TLO only had issues with his middle-game transition with thors, not the early game. TLO did his stuff right, he got the surround, but Hyperdub had the critical mass to chew a way out of the workers. One could argue about the marine withdrawal at the start, but the difference between success and failure there is soo micro-scopic to the milliseconds (if even possible) that that cannot be blamed as a "failure."So that takes out any justification that cheese would be more effective. Also, your comparison of TLO's "risk" vs Hyperdubs is laughable. They are nowhere near the same degree of risk. TLO's mere "risk" is that he might lose to a potential cheese that might happen 1% of the time (if even that). Hyperdub's risk is an automatic one that happens 100% of the time. "and some can exploit that weakness if they are close rush position" The conditional statement demonstrates the luck-aspect that has people miffed. Actually a good player could play those first two games and based on his scouting each game would understand the style tlo has been going for and when he is getting certain buildings + tech. TLO's opening is obviously weak to proxy, if it were not so he wouldn't have lost, so trying to downplay the vulnerability of it cause it is "standard" is really not valid. You also can't say TLO did his stuff right, because he was beaten on a strategic level. Your interpretation of my comparison about risk is laughable, you don't seem to understand that when you understand all the variables you eliminate risk. Sorta like in poker you eliminate "risk" by knowing variables such as how your opponents play. So while hyperdub proxy raxxing may be risky under certain circumstances. When he scouts his opponent, knows his opponents opening build and scouting pattern, and then exploits it. It is no longer high risk. TLO's high risk was that he did something extremely predictable, and did not scout for the things it was vulnerable to. He did not have control of the variables and did not create a situation where he was properly informed on whether his vulnerabilities would be exploited. There is no luck-aspect. The guy scouted, TLO was close, he did a strat to counter TLO. If TLO had been far he wouldn't have done the same strat. Claiming it is luck that TLO just happened to spawn close position is all well and good, but people who are caught up on such things are holding themselves back, as the game is about adapting to what is presented to you, not just saying "you are lucky you are close position, if you are long position i would have won". It wasn't luck that hyperdub used the knowledge that he had on TLO and applied it in a way to completely dominate TLO. It is common sense. | ||
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evilsaint
United States309 Posts
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Kyouya
Mexico318 Posts
On September 21 2010 17:39 Johnwe wrote: Vengeance to all the cheesers~ Hail SKS(aka TesteR) the Protoss GOD shall bring vengeance to them!!! Their cheese will be lesser then a changeling. (Especially~~~ Hyperdub) The Protoss GOD shall win it all~~~ Yeah, specially because TLO used the exact same build vs dimaga, dimaga got his vengance. Karma? | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 21 2010 17:15 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I am not saying that a person cheesing first increases the chance that they will cheese again. My statement was that there would be something to predict as a possibility as opposed to the blank slate where you've seen zero strategies a person has used against you in a game. "The likelyhood of cheese increasing is still speculation since there are still so many variables [the person's attitude toward cheese, the strategies they've practiced, and so on] to the point where you literally cannot make a probability claim since statistically that is extrapolation and invalid. Dude, I quoted you directly in my post, "he knew his opponent would fail to counter." The words speak for themselves. My argument about "luck" was not about some abstract force driving the universe, it was directly in the context of answering that quotation from your post, specifically noting that this was not based on some ingenious skill or strategy of hyperdub but a random guess on his part that relied on his opponent messing up rather than him doing well, which is why I find it so distasteful. First point. Prediction of possibility means you need to consider all the possibilities. Davit was purported to be a very solid all round player coming into the GSL... and then he surprised everyone with proxy rax two games in a row. If you don't prepare or scout for the possibility, then you have only yourself to blame. As for probability you can't argue against it in my scenario yet argue for it in yours since each game is technically independent of each other despite being constituents of a Bo3. The probability of cheese is 100% exactly the same in every match against every player if you want to consider it from a purely mathematical point of view. We aren't talking about that though since you clearly believe there is merit in discussing the probability of being able to counter something based on something you see... therefore I still maintain that cheese to finish a Bo3 is no different to cheese to start a Bo3. As for the second point... I think you are mixing up people. I can't seem to find the part you claim to have quoted me as saying. | ||
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
On September 21 2010 15:20 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Actually, he won the recent sc2casts.com invitational beating Dimaga in the finals, as well as several go4sc2 cups and a zotac cup. Also, I don't see how you're actually answering what the previous post said. Even if we made the false assumption that he hasn't won anything yet, the post is explicit that TLO is "creative and entertaining," not dominating in terms of 1st place wins. Anyways, I'ma just throw my hat onto the gargantuan pile going "boo hyperdubcheese," lol. Those tournaments are garbage in my opinion, he can't even win against Sen, let alone Koreans. And again, "creative and entertaining" is just your opinion. I don't think he's creative at all. Everybody is saying 1st match is epic, I would say it was just a screwup from hyperdub, not something genius from TLO. | ||
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Dummyurd
Germany3 Posts
it was both, i think some things tlo did where very very smart, still hyperdub did some really stupid mistakes | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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throttled
United States382 Posts
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splints
Canada85 Posts
On September 21 2010 18:55 Kyouya wrote: Yeah, specially because TLO used the exact same build vs dimaga, dimaga got his vengance. Karma? TLO would never 2 rax proxy! I was rooting for TLO but he lost fair and square. Just have to move on. | ||
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kentonator
Vatican City State95 Posts
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fantomex
United States313 Posts
On September 21 2010 20:43 hydraden wrote: Those tournaments are garbage in my opinion, he can't even win against Sen, let alone Koreans. And again, "creative and entertaining" is just your opinion. I don't think he's creative at all. Everybody is saying 1st match is epic, I would say it was just a screwup from hyperdub, not something genius from TLO. Its hard to be wrong so many times in such a short post. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On September 21 2010 20:43 hydraden wrote: Those tournaments are garbage in my opinion, he can't even win against Sen, let alone Koreans. And again, "creative and entertaining" is just your opinion. I don't think he's creative at all. Everybody is saying 1st match is epic, I would say it was just a screwup from hyperdub, not something genius from TLO. lol.. Idk if you've realized this, but Sen beats Koreans all the time... He is on the same level as they are so if Sen can beat TLO, top Koreans can beat TLO. All the same, TLO is a great player, and on a good day he can beat Sen and top Koreans as well. DERP | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On September 22 2010 05:30 Shinta) wrote: lol.. Idk if you've realized this, but Sen beats Koreans all the time... He is on the same level as they are so if Sen can beat TLO, top Koreans can beat TLO. All the same, TLO is a great player, and on a good day he can beat Sen and top Koreans as well. DERP Dont bother arguing, there will always be haters. But I do believe TLO is good enough (at this stage) to beat a good portion of koreans. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On September 22 2010 08:47 Darpa wrote: Dont bother arguing, there will always be haters. But I do believe TLO is good enough (at this stage) to beat a good portion of koreans. Yep there are only about 16-30 of them that he can't beat. Maybe a bit more cause of a bunch of great players not being at gsl this season. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 22 2010 05:30 Shinta) wrote: The previous poster about Sen hit it on the nail. Additionally, there's the fact that that was ancient history, much before TLO showed marked improvement [for ex., he seemed to always lose against Whitera (TSL I, HDH, Altitude), and then bam we see his victories in the show-match (both of them, actually), IEM Cologne, and then Sc2casts.com. Also, I don't think you even know what these tournaments entail. I even explicitly mentioned that TLO beat Dimaga in the final round of sc2casts.com; under your precious rubric of Korean players, Dimaga kind of final'd in the 1713.com world cup. Meanwhile, on the other posts still talking about why Hyperdub still may have been strategic or why TLO was making mistakes - all of this is nonetheless based on theorycrafting for Hyperdub, or things not of Hyperdub's ability but from TLO's error, neither of which denotes his wins as enjoyable (the difference between that and TLO's first game, is that TLO was not theorycrafting but improvising on the spot, not to mention the sheer actual gameplay was exciting independent of the intended strategies), and here all I need do is refer to the rambo analogy for why that's disappointing. | ||
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pbr
Canada1 Post
Also, if they do play with the new changes, what kind of impact will it have? | ||
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junkacc
99 Posts
1. Hyperdub loses his all his tanks --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill 2. Hyperdub makes heaps of Vikings instead of BCs or dropships --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill 3. Hyperdub sends his Viking fleet into nuke --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill Objectively, there's nothing special about TLO apart from he was the last foreigner. | ||
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
On September 22 2010 11:28 junkacc wrote: TLO just got lucky first game. All you fawning over TLO should remember Hyperdub completely had it in the bag not once, but twice, but completely choked. 1. Hyperdub loses his all his tanks --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill 2. Hyperdub makes heaps of Vikings instead of BCs or dropships --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill 3. Hyperdub sends his Viking fleet into nuke --> Hyperdub mistake, not TLO skill Objectively, there's nothing special about TLO apart from he was the last foreigner. As much as I do love TLO It's kinda sad to say but this is true... The first game imo TLO did mainly win off Hyperdub making some really big mistakes. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On September 22 2010 05:30 Shinta) wrote: lol.. Idk if you've realized this, but Sen beats Koreans all the time... He is on the same level as they are so if Sen can beat TLO, top Koreans can beat TLO. All the same, TLO is a great player, and on a good day he can beat Sen and top Koreans as well. DERP I've definitely not seen Sen beat top Koreans all the time. Sen's a great player (Taiwan represent =) ) but I will never bet on him in a BoX vs Tester, ITR, Cool and the like. In some ways, it is like TLO as well. Great player and can probably get far in a global stage but iffy on odds against the true elites. Idra on the other hand ... (though honestly, he seems to be a little under performing lately >_< ) | ||
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