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A bit of constructive criticism:
Scenario: Four player map - the two players are on opposite sides of the map
One of the commentators would say "Oh no... player X is scouting the wrong way (in search of the opponents base". I've heard it in commentaries of at least 3 seperate games in the HDL cup.
There are two main things i dislike about the statement:
1. The two scouting paths are equal in travel distance; no matter which way he scouts his scouting unit will arrive at the opponents base at the same time
2. The general scouting path which most players take is the most standard and useful path because it generally has a shorter travel distance to the adjacent base due to ramp positioning/etc.
Point 1 only applies to 4 player maps with 2 players on opposite sides ------ where "scouting the wrong way" bothers me... unless you are talking about some sort of proxy which would have been seen on the normal scout path if he went the other way....
Point 2 applies to all 4 player maps... i find it weird that one would say they are 'scouting the wrong way' if they take the standard route.
Otherwise, the commentaries are fine and interesting and thanks for running this tournament.~~
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If Irip sponses more turnaments like this ill buy an ipod and use their site X_x
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Nice work!
But isn't the time around 3 am for you guys right now? You have definitely earned som sleep. (altough it would be nice to see the latest VODs, have to admit I'm getting addicted) 
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I had huge problems with the stream, and I know tons of other people did as well. I had to just turn it off after the IdrA/Orb- match because it would buffer 15 seconds for every 10 seconds of game time. I really hope you guys just work with glhf again because that was the only stream you guys have used that has worked without any problems for everyone. Cool tournament and thanks for what you're doing for the community, but I think getting a solid stream to use is something you guys need to work on either for the coming rounds or for the next tournament you hold.
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On April 29 2010 08:47 Kennigit wrote:Don't expect replays for big events like this. The purpose is to get enough views on vods and streams to justify sponsorship - replays don't help this.
Maybe one could think about placing a couple of sponsor's messages in the replays by using the ingame chat. Of course an obs would need to be in the game when it is played to do this. Don't know about lag issues this might cause, but otherwise ... might be interesting for sponsors as well, as with replays released, the games will probably get considerably more views overall.
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Honestly I think you guys should definitely just post to youtube and screw this streaming nonsense. 1. You guys will be able to produce more beforehand, possibly watching the games ahead so you know what to talk about and doing all the "pre game shows" at the same time when you're together?
2. More youtube views since the only way to view them would be through youtube obviously.
3. None of this crappy stream shenanigans.
4. No one complaining about lack of stream, or bad stream, or omfg the streams done where are my vids?!?!?! since they'll all be out on youtube once they're ready.
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On April 29 2010 10:32 Tankoz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2010 10:03 domobo wrote:This thread has caused me to register. This tourney is so awesome. Thanks so much for all the work you guys have done for the game. On April 29 2010 07:08 Kennigit wrote:On April 29 2010 07:02 ELA wrote:*EDIT* Failed at the quotes, cleaning them out. Yes, the reply was a response to this: On April 29 2010 04:38 Kennigit wrote:
This is why its important for commentators to have a good understanding of the game. On April 29 2010 04:34 Kennigit wrote:
Someone please tell husky that they are called Zerglings. Is he ignoring the L for a reason? I agree I could have gotten it wrong, as I was reading that post, it just seemed overly negative in my opinnion and I didn't actually read his later post, where he's basicly saying the same things that I am about the different targets of audiences and the balance between commentating skill versus high level of game knowledge. It was a legitimate question and statement. What would happen if John Madden started calling a football a foosball. "Sorry guys i just do that"...do you think viewers would react? Do you think no one should point it out because he's doing a good thing commentating?
I just keep seeing these small hints from established casters/participants in the TL community (Not exclusive TL representatives) that HD and Husky are 'stealing their thunder' somehow, and I felt I had to comment on that.
Stealing who's thunder? TL's or casters? If we thought that, why would the event be added to the calendar and have a 140 page thread dedicated to it. dont. talk. shit.
No doubt that TL has done loads for the community and for E-sports, I think therefor I will stop hijacking this thread before it becomes completely OT.
Yeah, let's drop it Please understand that I am totally aware that I am new here and that anything I say will be taken with a grain of salt (as it should be). If I'm honest this post makes me a little angry. It comes off to me as arrogant. Yes you may know a lot more about the game then many others, including myself, but that is irrelevant. The sponsors don't care how much knowledge of the game the casters have, they only care about how many people hear about there company. The players don't care about the ability of the casters to pronounce specific units in the game they mostly care about the prize pool. The vast majority of people who watch the games don't care in the slightest if the casters "have a good understanding of the game" they only care that they are entertained by the tourney. In fact I can't think of many people who care about the things you are complaining about. Your example asked how many people would care if Madden started calling a football a foosball. I don't think many people would care. Madden was loved for his personality more then for his knowledge of the game. What about Al Michaels, who never played or coached, but was still very popular. Should he not of picked up a mike? I don't really understand why your commenting at all. If the casts annoy you so much why are you watching? Why do you care enough to make several posts in this thread? I can't believe that you are trying to give constructive criticism, because there is nothing constructive about what you are saying, it is all negative. This game is brand new. Actually less then brand new; it's still in beta. There is no precedent for how a caster should behave. Your statements are simply based on nothing. You have no authority to say what kind of casting is good or bad. If anything HD and Husky have more authority then you do as they sometimes get over 100,000 views on there videos and as far as I know you do not cast at all. Being a good player does not make you a good caster (Just look at all the crap people on espn who are only there because they played in the NFL). Maybe this is getting off topic and if it is I am sorry, but the arrogance of your statements really did set me off. These guys are bringing starcraft to the west. The number of viewers they get is unparalleled for any esport in the west. And you are complaining because Husky didn't say zergling the way you want. Stop trying to inflate your ego by putting others who are succeeding down. I think you're missing the point. Yes, there is a difference between putting something down and constructive criticism. Pointing out problems with casting without being malicious should be welcomed, because without it, there is no way they can improve. I also reject the idea that the "vast majority" of people who watch games don't care. You might not care, someone else could, you can't really back that statement up. How a caster should behave is not related to the facts\predictions they make. If it is obvious that they are not picking up on a certain strategy or pointing out something factually incorrect, it is the duty of those who know to educate them on these things. That way, they can incorporate these ideas into their next casts, and just like the game they are playing, improve. I personally enjoy their commentry, but I would also like at least one other person there who knows the game inside out, so I can understand exactly what is going on because knowing that information increases my enjoyment of it even more.
You make some good points. Your right I can't possible back up the "vast majority" statement. But I can say that a lot of people watch these guys repeatedly, meaning there is something that people like to watch.
I don't think we disagree as much as you might think. I definitely think constructive criticism is a good thing. What I was saying is that a small minority of people on this thread were giving criticism for criticism sake. That there goal was not to improve the quality of the casting but to make themselves feel better.
On April 29 2010 13:11 Tropics wrote:
What is your point with this post? That the casters should strive for mediocrity because no one cares how good a job they do? Because that is literally what you have said. "who cares how good it actually is as long as people watch" is basically your summary.
People DO care how good it is, though. That's the important thing. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to improve their commentary with such a simple fix as adding an L to a word. I'm sure they want all the constructive criticism they can get, because at the end of the day unless you actually know what you're talking about and are an entertaining person you're "just another caster" to the vast majority of the TL population and we are the primary population. There are plenty of other sites who tune in and watch this stuff but I'd be surprised if the majority wasn't TL considering it's THE website for Starcraft, and at the end of the day everyone who cares about playing this game ends up here at some point or another. There are plenty of people out there who are only tuning into this because of the players playing in this tourney and the quality of games they might have. I know for sure that's the only reason I'm watching these in the first place and I won't be checking out any other HD/husky commentary solely for the people casting it, like I would with tasteless or day9.
And if you want an example of just how much people care about the quality of your commentary, go look at day9 daily. It has like 1k viewers even when its offline, pulls in 2.5k every single night of the week. People love it entirely because of its strategic depth, and actually has some staying power. You don't have to sacrifice your entertainment value to actually have some meaningful insight into the game and if you do, then you're probably not cut out for being a caster.
At the end of the day, yes, all that matters for this tournament is that people watch. But I know that HD and Husky are doing this for more than just pleasing a sponsor, they're doing it because they actually enjoy casting the game and they want people to watch. But to keep people watching they have to keep upping THEIR game too, because eventually the people watching are going to start noticing these flaws and they're not going to stop noticing them until they're fixed or they stop watching entirely.
This is a complete straw man argument. I never said I didn't want the casts to be good. I only said that some peoples opinion of what is good is wrong. Also, at no point did I criticize TL or any other casters like day9. You are attempting to get people on your side by implying that somehow TL is under attack. I think TL has done a huge amount for the game. Probably the most any organization has done outside of Korea.
Before I say more I also want to make it clear that HD and Husky aren't idiots. They do have a good understanding of the game. I don't want people to assume that I agree with that point. It does seem to be true that some people are angry because they don't have a better understanding of the game.
I get it that you want a lot of technical depth. Thats great for you. But if starcraft ever becomes really big outside of Korea (and it looks like it has the potential to) the market is going to have to be larger then TL. A very small majority of people who watch any other sport care enough to go on a forum and complain about the little details of a cast (though in every sport some people do). The big markets these games target could not care less about how they could improve there game. They only care that have enjoyed a good game.
Look at the Korean casters. They do have some people with an incredibly deep understanding of the game but they also have color commentators (who have never played at a high level). They shout pleguuuuu at the top of there lungs for god sakes. What "technical depth" does this add? Could they simply being doing it because it is entertaining?
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On April 29 2010 19:11 GreggSauce wrote:
Honestly I think you guys should definitely just post to youtube and screw this streaming nonsense. 1. You guys will be able to produce more beforehand, possibly watching the games ahead so you know what to talk about and doing all the "pre game shows" at the same time when you're together?
2. More youtube views since the only way to view them would be through youtube obviously.
3. None of this crappy stream shenanigans.
4. No one complaining about lack of stream, or bad stream, or omfg the streams done where are my vids?!?!?! since they'll all be out on youtube once they're ready.
Had the same sentiments until I stumbled upon the live stream yesterday night.
1 word. Atmosphere.
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hey guys if you have problems with ustream use internet explorer....
yesterday i used firefox and only getting blank screen.... then i used ie...everything seems to be normal
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YEY! I smell a second IdraA vs NonY 
Sweet!
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On April 29 2010 20:40 kanabalize wrote:
hey guys if you have problems with ustream use internet explorer....
yesterday i used firefox and only getting blank screen.... then i used ie...everything seems to be normal
do you have the Adobe Flash plugin installed for Firefox? Do you use any AdBlocker or NoScript Add-Ins?
Couldn't watch it either, my UMTS seems not to provide enough bandwith to view properly 
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On April 29 2010 08:23 cerebralz wrote:
I agree more in depth commentary would be add to the quality of the whole experience. However, these guys just need more practice in a professional setting.
More practice in commentating would not give them more insight, because they wont find out about the tactics themselves. From simply watching Day[9] and his dailies you can easily find out about the "Muta-Ling (Zerg- AND Bane-)" combo and every other type of tactic. The important point is thinking about the usefulness of a combination BEFORE saying anything about it. Not having seen a thing before does not invalidate a viable tactic.
Watching Professor Plotts shows should be mandatory for every commentator, because he actually explains how a successful Starcraft-player-mind should work. Another "must do" should be playing a lot of games himself.
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the ustream yesterday was very bad and choppy, i hope you guys can fix the settings next time, but keep up the good job guys much appreciated none the less .
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On April 29 2010 19:26 domobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2010 10:32 Tankoz wrote:On April 29 2010 10:03 domobo wrote:This thread has caused me to register. This tourney is so awesome. Thanks so much for all the work you guys have done for the game. On April 29 2010 07:08 Kennigit wrote:On April 29 2010 07:02 ELA wrote:*EDIT* Failed at the quotes, cleaning them out. Yes, the reply was a response to this: On April 29 2010 04:38 Kennigit wrote:
This is why its important for commentators to have a good understanding of the game. On April 29 2010 04:34 Kennigit wrote:
Someone please tell husky that they are called Zerglings. Is he ignoring the L for a reason? I agree I could have gotten it wrong, as I was reading that post, it just seemed overly negative in my opinnion and I didn't actually read his later post, where he's basicly saying the same things that I am about the different targets of audiences and the balance between commentating skill versus high level of game knowledge. It was a legitimate question and statement. What would happen if John Madden started calling a football a foosball. "Sorry guys i just do that"...do you think viewers would react? Do you think no one should point it out because he's doing a good thing commentating?
I just keep seeing these small hints from established casters/participants in the TL community (Not exclusive TL representatives) that HD and Husky are 'stealing their thunder' somehow, and I felt I had to comment on that.
Stealing who's thunder? TL's or casters? If we thought that, why would the event be added to the calendar and have a 140 page thread dedicated to it. dont. talk. shit.
No doubt that TL has done loads for the community and for E-sports, I think therefor I will stop hijacking this thread before it becomes completely OT.
Yeah, let's drop it Please understand that I am totally aware that I am new here and that anything I say will be taken with a grain of salt (as it should be). If I'm honest this post makes me a little angry. It comes off to me as arrogant. Yes you may know a lot more about the game then many others, including myself, but that is irrelevant. The sponsors don't care how much knowledge of the game the casters have, they only care about how many people hear about there company. The players don't care about the ability of the casters to pronounce specific units in the game they mostly care about the prize pool. The vast majority of people who watch the games don't care in the slightest if the casters "have a good understanding of the game" they only care that they are entertained by the tourney. In fact I can't think of many people who care about the things you are complaining about. Your example asked how many people would care if Madden started calling a football a foosball. I don't think many people would care. Madden was loved for his personality more then for his knowledge of the game. What about Al Michaels, who never played or coached, but was still very popular. Should he not of picked up a mike? I don't really understand why your commenting at all. If the casts annoy you so much why are you watching? Why do you care enough to make several posts in this thread? I can't believe that you are trying to give constructive criticism, because there is nothing constructive about what you are saying, it is all negative. This game is brand new. Actually less then brand new; it's still in beta. There is no precedent for how a caster should behave. Your statements are simply based on nothing. You have no authority to say what kind of casting is good or bad. If anything HD and Husky have more authority then you do as they sometimes get over 100,000 views on there videos and as far as I know you do not cast at all. Being a good player does not make you a good caster (Just look at all the crap people on espn who are only there because they played in the NFL). Maybe this is getting off topic and if it is I am sorry, but the arrogance of your statements really did set me off. These guys are bringing starcraft to the west. The number of viewers they get is unparalleled for any esport in the west. And you are complaining because Husky didn't say zergling the way you want. Stop trying to inflate your ego by putting others who are succeeding down. I think you're missing the point. Yes, there is a difference between putting something down and constructive criticism. Pointing out problems with casting without being malicious should be welcomed, because without it, there is no way they can improve. I also reject the idea that the "vast majority" of people who watch games don't care. You might not care, someone else could, you can't really back that statement up. How a caster should behave is not related to the facts\predictions they make. If it is obvious that they are not picking up on a certain strategy or pointing out something factually incorrect, it is the duty of those who know to educate them on these things. That way, they can incorporate these ideas into their next casts, and just like the game they are playing, improve. I personally enjoy their commentry, but I would also like at least one other person there who knows the game inside out, so I can understand exactly what is going on because knowing that information increases my enjoyment of it even more. You make some good points. Your right I can't possible back up the "vast majority" statement. But I can say that a lot of people watch these guys repeatedly, meaning there is something that people like to watch. I don't think we disagree as much as you might think. I definitely think constructive criticism is a good thing. What I was saying is that a small minority of people on this thread were giving criticism for criticism sake. That there goal was not to improve the quality of the casting but to make themselves feel better. Show nested quote +On April 29 2010 13:11 Tropics wrote:
What is your point with this post? That the casters should strive for mediocrity because no one cares how good a job they do? Because that is literally what you have said. "who cares how good it actually is as long as people watch" is basically your summary.
People DO care how good it is, though. That's the important thing. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to improve their commentary with such a simple fix as adding an L to a word. I'm sure they want all the constructive criticism they can get, because at the end of the day unless you actually know what you're talking about and are an entertaining person you're "just another caster" to the vast majority of the TL population and we are the primary population. There are plenty of other sites who tune in and watch this stuff but I'd be surprised if the majority wasn't TL considering it's THE website for Starcraft, and at the end of the day everyone who cares about playing this game ends up here at some point or another. There are plenty of people out there who are only tuning into this because of the players playing in this tourney and the quality of games they might have. I know for sure that's the only reason I'm watching these in the first place and I won't be checking out any other HD/husky commentary solely for the people casting it, like I would with tasteless or day9.
And if you want an example of just how much people care about the quality of your commentary, go look at day9 daily. It has like 1k viewers even when its offline, pulls in 2.5k every single night of the week. People love it entirely because of its strategic depth, and actually has some staying power. You don't have to sacrifice your entertainment value to actually have some meaningful insight into the game and if you do, then you're probably not cut out for being a caster.
At the end of the day, yes, all that matters for this tournament is that people watch. But I know that HD and Husky are doing this for more than just pleasing a sponsor, they're doing it because they actually enjoy casting the game and they want people to watch. But to keep people watching they have to keep upping THEIR game too, because eventually the people watching are going to start noticing these flaws and they're not going to stop noticing them until they're fixed or they stop watching entirely. This is a complete straw man argument. I never said I didn't want the casts to be good. I only said that some peoples opinion of what is good is wrong. Also, at no point did I criticize TL or any other casters like day9. You are attempting to get people on your side by implying that somehow TL is under attack. I think TL has done a huge amount for the game. Probably the most any organization has done outside of Korea. Before I say more I also want to make it clear that HD and Husky aren't idiots. They do have a good understanding of the game. I don't want people to assume that I agree with that point. It does seem to be true that some people are angry because they don't have a better understanding of the game. I get it that you want a lot of technical depth. Thats great for you. But if starcraft ever becomes really big outside of Korea (and it looks like it has the potential to) the market is going to have to be larger then TL. A very small majority of people who watch any other sport care enough to go on a forum and complain about the little details of a cast (though in every sport some people do). The big markets these games target could not care less about how they could improve there game. They only care that have enjoyed a good game. Look at the Korean casters. They do have some people with an incredibly deep understanding of the game but they also have color commentators (who have never played at a high level). They shout pleguuuuu at the top of there lungs for god sakes. What "technical depth" does this add? Could they simply being doing it because it is entertaining?
I have to agree. What makes casters successful is not in-depth technical knowledge of what they are casting, it's the energy and environment they produce. The bottom line is, was the cast fun to watch? The Korean casters are a great example, many of them don't know much about the mechanics, but they make it interesting and fun. Fill the silence, and leave the viewer wanting to watch again. Knowledge helps, sure, but I'll take HD and Husky's great casting and mediocre knowledge over some of the streams from top players any day, because they make it interesting and energetic.
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On April 29 2010 08:47 Kennigit wrote:Don't expect replays for big events like this. The purpose is to get enough views on vods and streams to justify sponsorship - replays don't help this.
There is a replays section in the liquipedia page. Why wouldn't they be released? It's stupid not to.
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Take a look at the GLHF.tv casters, OMFG.fm, etc. They are featured here, they routinely get hundreds of viewers if not thousands. In GLHF's cause they do a ton for the community.
But you can't say they are knowledgeable casters. I like them both, I appreciate them for what they do. But it's pretty clear their game knowledge is not a strong suit of theirs.
But to say the same thing about HD and Husky, and literally any other youtube commentator under the sun results in hundreds of these <10 post posters crawling out of the woodwork to rush to their defense like overprotective parents. It happens every single time. You write these novels about how they are perfectly fine and being merely adequate is the greatest thing ever, better than any amount of self improvement!!
And ultimately it's because someone corrected the way they pronounced zergling. Or the way they incorrectly described what was occurring in the game. When someone does something wrong, it's not being an asshole to correct them. It's not a personal attack against them and burning desire to see all their life's work destroyed. If people didn't care, they probably wouldn't say anything at all.
But here's this army of sycophantic youtube followers who rush to the aid of their favorite caster at anything they perceive to be a slight, making sweeping generalizations about the tl community and even the admins, and how they secretly want to ruin everything that they didn't personally come up with because one of them pointed out how husky doesn't know how to pronounce zergling.
Guys, your favorite casters are not infallible, they do make mistakes and a lot of them invest so much time and energy into this that I have to believe they want to be the best they can be, or even make a career out of it. Whether or not I think being a video game commentator is a reasonable career path, the way they accomplish it is by being the best they can be at it. The only way they do that is by listening to criticism and improving. Not by being sheltered from things they might not want to hear by their small group of adoring fans.
Not to mention how much you just plain shit up TL every time you believe your favorite caster is under fire
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On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:Show nested quote + IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #
when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.
How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head. If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.
Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.
Idra you are an absolutely amazing player and I've enjoyed watching a great many of your games, but, come on, you can't really use this as an excuse. You defeated Orb in 2 out of 3 games and are advancing to the next round, don't ruin it by crying latency at the nearest setback.
I want to stress that I do not mean to insult anyone. I just feel that Orb is owed his due for winning a great match. Many people predicted a flawless 2 - 0 victory for Idra.
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yeah orb used the map greatly....
but idra was great in game 1...
i guess the turning point is the discovery of the stargate...
how idra discovered it is anybodys guess...:D
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As far as I know latency is NOT the same if you are playing from different "servers" It was reported by europeans playing liquidvsEG and by Idra on EU and US server. I don't doubt the problem is there.
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On April 29 2010 20:43 lopper wrote:YEY! I smell a second IdraA vs NonY Sweet!
NonY is warming up his probes already.
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EPT
