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HDH Invitational #1 - Page 149

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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jamesr12
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1549 Posts
April 29 2010 14:14 GMT
#2961
yeah that was crazy i dont know how he found it. Idra with the map hack... ?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
zyrtec
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway1 Post
April 29 2010 14:15 GMT
#2962
Are you guys going to put up the vods on ustream or only youtube?
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 14:18:55
April 29 2010 14:17 GMT
#2963
On April 29 2010 23:04 B_w_S wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:
IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #

when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.



How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head.

If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.

Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.

Idra you are an absolutely amazing player and I've enjoyed watching a great many of your games, but, come on, you can't really use this as an excuse. You defeated Orb in 2 out of 3 games and are advancing to the next round, don't ruin it by crying latency at the nearest setback.

I want to stress that I do not mean to insult anyone. I just feel that Orb is owed his due for winning a great match. Many people predicted a flawless 2 - 0 victory for Idra.

he asked me what happened, you really wanna claim one sided latency wouldnt have any impact on defending a rush? and its not like im making it up, everyone who has played multiple servers has reported increased latency.

no, it does not keep them at the same level. ive played a good number of zotac and esl cups on euro, which is essentially bnet1 extra high lat + lag for me, and opponents have said they dont feel a thing.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
cuppatea
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1401 Posts
April 29 2010 14:30 GMT
#2964
On April 29 2010 23:04 B_w_S wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:
IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #

when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.



How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head.

If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.

Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.



How does that work?

How is it possible to connect to an American server from Korea (or Europe) and have the same latency as a local player (assuming both are on broadband connections)?

Let's say I play someone from New Zealand on the European server; I generally ping about 50ms to French ip addresses (where the Blizzard's European servers are hosted, I believe) and a guy from New Zealand is probably looking at closer to 300ms. How could Bnet possibly make our latencies equal in that situation without artifically raising mine (which would be complete bullshit)?
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
April 29 2010 14:32 GMT
#2965
On April 29 2010 23:17 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2010 23:04 B_w_S wrote:
On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:
IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #

when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.



How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head.

If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.

Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.

Idra you are an absolutely amazing player and I've enjoyed watching a great many of your games, but, come on, you can't really use this as an excuse. You defeated Orb in 2 out of 3 games and are advancing to the next round, don't ruin it by crying latency at the nearest setback.

I want to stress that I do not mean to insult anyone. I just feel that Orb is owed his due for winning a great match. Many people predicted a flawless 2 - 0 victory for Idra.

he asked me what happened, you really wanna claim one sided latency wouldnt have any impact on defending a rush? and its not like im making it up, everyone who has played multiple servers has reported increased latency.

no, it does not keep them at the same level. ive played a good number of zotac and esl cups on euro, which is essentially bnet1 extra high lat + lag for me, and opponents have said they dont feel a thing.


I know you're incessantly BM and I know you don't respect me but I'm watching the replay right now and you don't even have the hatchery selected waiting to cancel it. You never even selected the damn thing so I don't see how the fuck you can be blaming latency for your loss.

You're unbelievable.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
bull0563
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 14:51:39
April 29 2010 14:51 GMT
#2966
Because when idra loses there clearly must be some external factor causing it. Since it can not possibly be his own fault.
BladeRunner
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States407 Posts
April 29 2010 15:01 GMT
#2967
On April 29 2010 23:32 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2010 23:17 IdrA wrote:
On April 29 2010 23:04 B_w_S wrote:
On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:
IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #

when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.



How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head.

If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.

Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.

Idra you are an absolutely amazing player and I've enjoyed watching a great many of your games, but, come on, you can't really use this as an excuse. You defeated Orb in 2 out of 3 games and are advancing to the next round, don't ruin it by crying latency at the nearest setback.

I want to stress that I do not mean to insult anyone. I just feel that Orb is owed his due for winning a great match. Many people predicted a flawless 2 - 0 victory for Idra.

he asked me what happened, you really wanna claim one sided latency wouldnt have any impact on defending a rush? and its not like im making it up, everyone who has played multiple servers has reported increased latency.

no, it does not keep them at the same level. ive played a good number of zotac and esl cups on euro, which is essentially bnet1 extra high lat + lag for me, and opponents have said they dont feel a thing.


I know you're incessantly BM and I know you don't respect me but I'm watching the replay right now and you don't even have the hatchery selected waiting to cancel it. You never even selected the damn thing so I don't see how the fuck you can be blaming latency for your loss.

You're unbelievable.


IdrA owned gg?
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
April 29 2010 15:24 GMT
#2968
Hardly, that just shows how incredibly lagged he was that his selection didn't even register. I'm grateful a great player like Idra is willing to put up with such a significant handicap and play in this tournament for our amusement.
BladeRunner
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States407 Posts
April 29 2010 15:26 GMT
#2969
Why would it pop up a dialog that someone was slowing down the game if it didn't have an algorithm to equalize latency?
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 15:36:21
April 29 2010 15:34 GMT
#2970
On April 30 2010 00:24 floor exercise wrote:
Hardly, that just shows how incredibly lagged he was that his selection didn't even register. I'm grateful a great player like Idra is willing to put up with such a significant handicap and play in this tournament for our amusement.


Yeah that. I'm not really an Idra fan but for the sake of fairness, its ridiculous to think that someone of his level wouldn't even bother selecting a hatch under attack like that under normal conditions. Idra won in pretty dominant form and from what I gather, inter-gateway lag is a big deal (see a lot of the US vs EU show matches day[9] casts; in half there's usually some point where the disconnect window pops up the lag is so bad, so no there is perfect lag-equalizing algorithm). As much as I was rooting for orb to pull off something great, Idra really does have a completely valid excuse.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 15:41:42
April 29 2010 15:40 GMT
#2971
On April 30 2010 00:34 See.Blue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2010 00:24 floor exercise wrote:
Hardly, that just shows how incredibly lagged he was that his selection didn't even register. I'm grateful a great player like Idra is willing to put up with such a significant handicap and play in this tournament for our amusement.


Yeah that. I'm not really an Idra fan but for the sake of fairness, its ridiculous to think that someone of his level wouldn't even bother selecting a hatch under attack like that under normal conditions. Idra won in pretty dominant form and from what I gather, inter-gateway lag is a big deal (see a lot of the US vs EU show matches day[9] casts; in half there's usually some point where the disconnect window pops up the lag is so bad, so no there is perfect lag-equalizing algorithm). As much as I was rooting for orb to pull off something great, Idra really does have a completely valid excuse.


I guess you didn't but I got the sense floor exercise was being sarcastic since obviously idra didn't play for the viewers' amusement, he is playing for the money. Why do you think he hasn't been playing in non-money tournaments in the US?

Also, client side lag for one player and not the other doesn't exist. Hence the existence of the "is slowing down the game" message and the lag drop screen.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
etlverified
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1 Post
April 29 2010 15:44 GMT
#2972
@BladeRunner
There are definitely ways to ensure that the latency between both sides is symmetric (I'm a comp sci phd student), and Blizzard claims to have implemented such balancing. They are mighty smart guys, and I'm sure they've put some time working on making it as fair as possible.

That having been said, I can't vouch for the implementation of their networked architecture. Sometimes, the source of lag can be very subtle; even if the primary round-trip lag is eliminated, you still have unequal jitter for both sides. Moreover, this is an issue of three, rather than two, connected nodes and ping times don't necessarily satisfy the triangle inequality. This can lead to some paradoxical situations: for example, the round-trip-time for a packet relayed through Battle.net could be lower than for one sent directly between the players.

Bottom line: unless there are empirical measurements, you can't conclude one way or another. Personally, I suspect that Blizzard has handled most of the lag, else the game would be completely unplayable across continents.
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 16:03:10
April 29 2010 15:52 GMT
#2973
On April 29 2010 22:46 floor exercise wrote:
Take a look at the GLHF.tv casters, OMFG.fm, etc. They are featured here, they routinely get hundreds of viewers if not thousands. In GLHF's cause they do a ton for the community.

But you can't say they are knowledgeable casters. I like them both, I appreciate them for what they do. But it's pretty clear their game knowledge is not a strong suit of theirs.

But to say the same thing about HD and Husky, and literally any other youtube commentator under the sun results in hundreds of these <10 post posters crawling out of the woodwork to rush to their defense like overprotective parents. It happens every single time. You write these novels about how they are perfectly fine and being merely adequate is the greatest thing ever, better than any amount of self improvement!!

And ultimately it's because someone corrected the way they pronounced zergling. Or the way they incorrectly described what was occurring in the game. When someone does something wrong, it's not being an asshole to correct them. It's not a personal attack against them and burning desire to see all their life's work destroyed. If people didn't care, they probably wouldn't say anything at all.

But here's this army of sycophantic youtube followers who rush to the aid of their favorite caster at anything they perceive to be a slight, making sweeping generalizations about the tl community and even the admins, and how they secretly want to ruin everything that they didn't personally come up with because one of them pointed out how husky doesn't know how to pronounce zergling.

Guys, your favorite casters are not infallible, they do make mistakes and a lot of them invest so much time and energy into this that I have to believe they want to be the best they can be, or even make a career out of it. Whether or not I think being a video game commentator is a reasonable career path, the way they accomplish it is by being the best they can be at it. The only way they do that is by listening to criticism and improving. Not by being sheltered from things they might not want to hear by their small group of adoring fans.

Not to mention how much you just plain shit up TL every time you believe your favorite caster is under fire


It was hardly one or a couple of persons that pointed out the Zergling issue. People have been spamming it in the live stream, in the discussion forums and at YT. It's a minor issue that he's admitted he does unconsciously, but after people nag over it over and over again, you can't be surprised when there is a backlash against all the whining. You can't honestly think Husky don't know how to pronounce zergling? There is nothing wrong with giving constructive criticisms, but if it's not presented that way it's very easy for people to place you in the troll category even though you don't mean it that way.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
April 29 2010 16:02 GMT
#2974
On April 30 2010 00:40 -orb- wrote:
Also, client side lag for one player and not the other doesn't exist. Hence the existence of the "is slowing down the game" message and the lag drop screen.


Well if that's the case, I stand corrected. Well played second game then!
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 16:11:24
April 29 2010 16:07 GMT
#2975
On April 29 2010 23:32 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2010 23:17 IdrA wrote:
On April 29 2010 23:04 B_w_S wrote:
On April 29 2010 16:58 petered wrote:
IdrA Korea (South). April 29 2010 14:16. Posts 10348 PM Profile Blog Quote #

when i play on us server i get roughly bnet1 high latency, and it doesnt affect my opponent's latency as far as i know. that makes stopping rushes about a billion times harder than usual, and its the reason my hatch died instead of being cancelled the 2nd time.



How does this work exactly? I thought there was something in place to make the latency on both sides the same, to keep it fair. I read R1CH's thread about SC2 networking, but the vast majority of it(like most of what R1CH says) went over my head.

If it is different for the two sides, that is definitely a huge fairness issue. Playing with really high latency is so much harder and would be a big disadvantage I imagine.

Bnet does keep the both player's latencies at the same level.

Idra you are an absolutely amazing player and I've enjoyed watching a great many of your games, but, come on, you can't really use this as an excuse. You defeated Orb in 2 out of 3 games and are advancing to the next round, don't ruin it by crying latency at the nearest setback.

I want to stress that I do not mean to insult anyone. I just feel that Orb is owed his due for winning a great match. Many people predicted a flawless 2 - 0 victory for Idra.

he asked me what happened, you really wanna claim one sided latency wouldnt have any impact on defending a rush? and its not like im making it up, everyone who has played multiple servers has reported increased latency.

no, it does not keep them at the same level. ive played a good number of zotac and esl cups on euro, which is essentially bnet1 extra high lat + lag for me, and opponents have said they dont feel a thing.


I know you're incessantly BM and I know you don't respect me but I'm watching the replay right now and you don't even have the hatchery selected waiting to cancel it. You never even selected the damn thing so I don't see how the fuck you can be blaming latency for your loss.

You're unbelievable.

ya you also watched the replay and saw me start my 2nd queen after your void ray was out. oh wait.
stop being a dumbass.

it doesnt show because you were selecting it at the same time, for the entire time it was near death, and it cant show both little color circles at once.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
NightOne
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada215 Posts
April 29 2010 16:26 GMT
#2976
where are the other two games of idra vs orb? (aren't on liquipedia page) i wanted to see what happened...
araged
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic189 Posts
April 29 2010 16:26 GMT
#2977
Off the current flame - When can we expect the VODs on youtube? Nonstop stream crashing yesterday have ruined my experience from last game.
heh?
Enreeco
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada6 Posts
April 29 2010 16:46 GMT
#2978
Thanks for the tourney HD and Husky
Liquid`Ret
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Netherlands4514 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 16:50:35
April 29 2010 16:47 GMT
#2979
I am going to show IdrA how to win ZvZ without doing a single thing~
Team Liquid
NightOne
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 17:01:35
April 29 2010 16:50 GMT
#2980
edited by request of user...
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