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On January 25 2016 01:35 travis wrote:
hey seriously can someone tell me what the actual army composition you want vs liberator/marine/tank is?
A healthy amount of Blink Stalkers, Chargelots and Immortals is what you want, and some Archons/Templar if you can delay their push enough. The most important thing is to be very forward with your army and force them to siege their army a lot on the way to your base, any Liberator/Tank/Medivac you can pick off is huge, and any forced stims do a lot of damage because their Medivac count won't be that high if they have a healthy Liberator count. While you're forcing them to siege, if they set up in a bad spot you can take advantage and engage. Be careful about them getting to your base and then getting a really good position (like behind the ramp to your 4th base on Orbital) or it might be unbreakable. Also be very careful about how you forward blink when trying to snipe Liberators, because a bunch of tank volleys will crush bunched up Stalkers.
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Guys, its a bit tricky question cause we are in P thread but how the hell you hold against cannon rush in lotv? It seems I cant defend any cannon rush, no matter how well executed. Thanks for your tips. And im playing toss of course.
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On January 28 2016 13:18 Hyper1 wrote:
I just discovered the greatest feeling ever. Feedback on a medivac carrying a sieged tank.
LOL nice. I think I have yet to do it. Ya the later the game goes, the better HTs get vs Medivacs and drops. A full energy HT can screw over a quad drop pretty hard if you spot it coming.
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On January 29 2016 10:22 Sweetness.751 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 13:18 Hyper1 wrote:
I just discovered the greatest feeling ever. Feedback on a medivac carrying a sieged tank. LOL nice. I think I have yet to do it. Ya the later the game goes, the better HTs get vs Medivacs and drops. A full energy HT can screw over a quad drop pretty hard if you spot it coming.
Yeah, he flew over my third trying to get to my natural, and my HT was just sitting there. I was just like "hehe" and blew it up.
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On January 29 2016 09:34 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Guys, its a bit tricky question cause we are in P thread but how the hell you hold against cannon rush in lotv? It seems I cant defend any cannon rush, no matter how well executed. Thanks for your tips. And im playing toss of course.
This is a good question. I'm about 50/50 for shutting them down. I always send a probe out as soon as the game starts to scout against protoss. If I get to their base and find a forge, I pull my probe out and leave him at their 4th. By this point I'll already have built the gateway because I always gateway expand against protoss to be safe. I keep on with it and expand anyway. I pull probes to hunt down his pylons and probes. Send a probe to chase his probes, and use a couple other to attack the pylons while cronoboosting out zealots. If you can't shut it down completely by the time they start to finish, pull all your probes to your natural to start mining. Then just keep droning up and boosting out zealots to clean it up. Though make sure to build a couple of zealots before sending them in, otherwise they'll die off before getting much done.
That's worked for me most games. Where I run into trouble is when he has 2 probes, keeps them moving constantly, and drops 3 pylons and like 2 photon cannons behind my mineral line. Probes can't get a surround, and there's too much to kill before it spawns. So no idea about that one.
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On January 29 2016 11:29 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 09:34 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Guys, its a bit tricky question cause we are in P thread but how the hell you hold against cannon rush in lotv? It seems I cant defend any cannon rush, no matter how well executed. Thanks for your tips. And im playing toss of course. This is a good question. I'm about 50/50 for shutting them down. I always send a probe out as soon as the game starts to scout against protoss. If I get to their base and find a forge, I pull my probe out and leave him at their 4th. By this point I'll already have built the gateway because I always gateway expand against protoss to be safe. I keep on with it and expand anyway. I pull probes to hunt down his pylons and probes. Send a probe to chase his probes, and use a couple other to attack the pylons while cronoboosting out zealots. If you can't shut it down completely by the time they start to finish, pull all your probes to your natural to start mining. Then just keep droning up and boosting out zealots to clean it up. Though make sure to build a couple of zealots before sending them in, otherwise they'll die off before getting much done. That's worked for me most games. Where I run into trouble is when he has 2 probes, keeps them moving constantly, and drops 3 pylons and like 2 photon cannons behind my mineral line. Probes can't get a surround, and there's too much to kill before it spawns. So no idea about that one.
Also a single stalker does wonders for zoning. The big thing is to not overreact. As long as the cannon is not hitting over four of your mineral patches or your Nexus, you don't need to kill it.
In addition, targeting the cannon that is building and not the pylon is key. Cannons cost more, have lest HP and warp in slower. That's why people build pylons around the cannon and not just more cannons. The pylons are harder to kill.
Making your own forge can be clutch as well if you were planning on fast expanding, but haven't dropped the base yet. If they are slow pushing with cannons from the corner of your base and not your mineral line, put those excess minerals to use and get your own defensive cannon. One well placed cannon is enough DPS to stop a slow cannon push on you Nexus
Also many pros say it is extremely hard to stop some cannon rushes and have claimed on stream their success rate is roughly 50/50. So don't be tilted by it. Shit happens.
^This post doesn't seem genuine. Notice that he said:
On January 29 2016 09:34 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Then just keep droning up and boosting out zealots to clean it up.
I smell a Zerg infidel 
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I smell a Zerg infidel
Dude?!?! There's no need for name calling, I've been an avid protoss player since SC1, just don't play much and trying to get past sucking terribly, lol. Ever caster I listen to says droning up, and it sounds better than probing up, which honestly sounds like what happens every time I fight against liberator/marine army, lol.
How do you get up to stalker before they start their rush? Or are you talking about corner rushes? Where they get me is when they set up right behind my mineral line. They go pylon cannon pylon cannon pylon. The cannons are mostly covered my pylons and minerals. Even scouting it's hard to counter.
On another note, I would love to try and cannon rush someone using their own sim city. Build my pylons and cannons around their buildings so they can't surround as easily. Would be funny to try.
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So in this meta of fast expands, I've tried my luck with proxy robos, arriving between 4 and 5 minutes with 1 or 2 immortals and a bunch of gateway army out of 3 gateways. I'm under the impression it's freaking strong. What counter could you imagine ? Does this kind of build imposes to go gate core before expanding ?
PvP http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6438124 PvT http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6438123
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On January 30 2016 03:28 Barthy wrote:So in this meta of fast expands, I've tried my luck with proxy robos, arriving between 4 and 5 minutes with 1 or 2 immortals and a bunch of gateway army out of 3 gateways. I'm under the impression it's freaking strong. What counter could you imagine ? Does this kind of build imposes to go gate core before expanding ? PvP http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6438124 PvT http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6438123
I would imagine them scouting the proxy would shut it down well. Or if they scout your base and see 3 gateways, no higher tech or expand, they might figure something is up. Also if they're able to expand and hold off your push, that will leave you in a rough spot.
That being said, I've been opening up one base aggression, following up with an expansion of my own. I'm by no means a pro, but it's worked well for me. I go robo and 4 gate, pumping out 4 adepts when I have the minerals to. I drop and expand. If they try some kind of proxy, then I've got my adepts and 4 warp gates to hold it off, if not, then I drop my adepts in their mineral line, and either re-enforce or expand. My last game I played against a terran who both built turrets, and proxy raxed me, with some cyclones mixed in. I lost my warp prism but dropped my adepts who pretty much took out his economy and the few units left at home. I used my warp ins to make stalkers and took out the proxy and those units. Then expanded, took another warp in and an immortal, and pushed into his base and won.
So I'm thinking early one base aggression might not be too bad.
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On January 29 2016 09:34 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Guys, its a bit tricky question cause we are in P thread but how the hell you hold against cannon rush in lotv? It seems I cant defend any cannon rush, no matter how well executed. Thanks for your tips. And im playing toss of course.
Actually there's a really old strategy that worked 100% of the time even in times when we had way less workers available, it should be trivial in LotV (I've used it plenty of times to easy wins).
The number of probes (in turn drones/scvs for other races) you need to pull depends on the total number of buildings your opponent puts down.
You will need to send 2 probes to each pylon and 3 for each canon. If you scout it immediately, those exact number of workers will cause pylons to die soon after they finish (w/ 2 probes hacking away at them) and photon cannons a bit earlier than they finish (w/ 3 hacking at them), because you really don't want photon cannons to finish. Then you will send one additional worker to just attack the probe who is building the buildings. Also, you have to scout it somewhat early, if you mess that up you can compensate by adding more drones, for example if you can only start attacking a photon cannon once it is halfway done, 5 probes will still destroy it before it finishes. But that's not always possible if your opponent positions them smartly (behind mineral lines, etc.) so it's important to scout this kind of stuff early enough.
Also if you see that you can't defend it outright for whatever reason with the above strategy, the game is still far far from over. You have to pull back drones to mine again and cancel expansion before any cannons are up and send one probe or so out to build an expansion somewhere else (best gold base somewhere on the map). You should then easily be able to build defensive structures on your own in the correct places to prevent your opponent from literally start shooting your workers/buildings with their cannons (it doesn't really matter if they just box you in, they will have 0 units and 0 tech for ages and you will be up one expansion and workers pretty soon), then just tech up to air units and start harassing him while you get support ground units, he will not be able to leave his base with minimal unit counts for a long time.
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On January 31 2016 09:45 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 09:34 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Guys, its a bit tricky question cause we are in P thread but how the hell you hold against cannon rush in lotv? It seems I cant defend any cannon rush, no matter how well executed. Thanks for your tips. And im playing toss of course. Actually there's a really old strategy that worked 100% of the time even in times when we had way less workers available, it should be trivial in LotV (I've used it plenty of times to easy wins). The number of probes (in turn drones/scvs for other races) you need to pull depends on the total number of buildings your opponent puts down. You will need to send 2 probes to each pylon and 3 for each canon. If you scout it immediately, those exact number of workers will cause pylons to die soon after they finish (w/ 2 probes hacking away at them) and photon cannons a bit earlier than they finish (w/ 3 hacking at them), because you really don't want photon cannons to finish by. Then you will send one additional worker to just attack the probe who is building the buildings. Also, you have to scout it somewhat early, if you mess that up you can compensate by adding more drones, for example if you can only start attacking a photon cannon once it is halfway done, 5 probes will still destroy it before it finishes. But that's not always possible if your opponent positions them smartly (behind mineral lines, etc.) so it's important to scout this kind of stuff early enough. Also if you see that you can't defend it outright for whatever reason with the above strategy, the game is still far far from over. You have to pull back drones to mine again and cancel expansion before any cannons are up and send one probe or so out to build an expansion somewhere else (best gold base somewhere on the map). You should then easily be able to build defensive structures on your own in the correct places to prevent your opponent from literally start shooting your workers/buildings with their cannons (it doesn't really matter if they just box you in, they will have 0 units and 0 tech for ages and you will be up one expansion and workers pretty soon), then just tech up to air units and start harassing him while you get support ground units, he will not be able to leave his base with minimal unit counts for a long time.
The cannon rusher will always position the first pylons/cannons so that you have little to no surface area to attack them (especially the cannons since pylons can be easily replaced).
The problem with lotv is that the cannon rusher can have a lot of probes while also going for the fastest possible forge. So he can spam pylons behind your mineral line 1 minute into the game , forcing you to pull probes and delay your tech while safely starting cannons with a second probe from the side of your main. Then if you're stuck on 1 gateway he can just build cannons way faster than you can kill them. (This wasn't the case in hots).
I think building position is really important, you need them to cover the holes behind your mineral line so that they can't be exploited for walling off cannons. Never pull probes from the gas , use 1 or 2 to chase the enemy probe and single probes to patrol in the areas where he might wall off cannons. Constantly check the sides of your main to see if he's starting new cannons. Also remember to pull back probes to mining when you don't need them anymore (it might sound stupid but there are a lot of things to do so it's very easy to have 4-5 idle probes for 10 seconds which costs you the game). Finally, we must remember to start our buildings at the correct timings, I.e. core right after the gate finished , and pylons in order to not get supply blocked. (Trivial things which are easy to fuck up when busy microing).
I think going for 1 zealot then chrono out stalkers should be the best response. Maybe even double stalker rush, but if you lose too much mining due to probe pulls I don't know if it's worth it to get a second gateway before the core. If you expand and lose your core/gateway you're still behind. Back in hots proxy void while expanding elsewhere was a very good counter but I don't know about lotv.
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So since this is a protoss thread, what do you guys think of cheese? Is it something we just shouldn't do, something we should do once in awhile to practice the build, or what?
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On January 31 2016 13:33 Hyper1 wrote:
So since this is a protoss thread, what do you guys think of cheese? Is it something we just shouldn't do, something we should do once in awhile to practice the build, or what?
It is something you should incorporate sometimes as part of either a mindgame on Protoss-favoured maps or to mitigate map advantages the other side has (ie. gold bases)
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Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
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On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no.
Please don't use this thread for whining.
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Germany25658 Posts
On January 31 2016 23:16 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no. Please don't use this thread for whining.
Doing my job for me, nice! 
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On January 31 2016 23:41 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 23:16 Mozdk wrote:On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no. Please don't use this thread for whining. Doing my job for me, nice!
Well, i'll try to be more costructive 
After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs?
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On February 01 2016 00:59 Weltall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 23:41 KadaverBB wrote:On January 31 2016 23:16 Mozdk wrote:On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no. Please don't use this thread for whining. Doing my job for me, nice! Well, i'll try to be more costructive After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs?
Showtime 3-0d Firecake and Harstem 3-0d Bly yesterday in the IEM qualifiers (post-patch). Check out the VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2/v/38707043. Harstem won a game on Central Protocol and Showtime won on Prion.
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Can anyone recommend some builds for PvT?
And to be more specific, I just get fucking murdered by marine tank. Even when I get charge, storm, and a third. I just get dropped and liberator-ed to death 
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On February 01 2016 01:42 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2016 00:59 Weltall wrote:
After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs? Showtime 3-0d Firecake and Harstem 3-0d Bly yesterday in the IEM qualifiers (post-patch). Check out the VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2/v/38707043. Harstem won a game on Central Protocol and Showtime won on Prion.
I watched these replays, but zergs play really passive with only late harass, when protoss unit count become useful to defend.
Honestly I never saw in premier tournaments any zerg doing dirty builds zergs do in ladder (master league). Would like to see some game with pool first, proxy hatchery, speedling rushes or ravager all ins.
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EPT
