|
On February 01 2016 03:15 BretZ wrote:Can anyone recommend some builds for PvT? And to be more specific, I just get fucking murdered by marine tank. Even when I get charge, storm, and a third. I just get dropped and liberator-ed to death 
If they're bad or lazy, tech up to T3 and get disruptors to kill their T1 unit. With the adept nerf I'm not even sure if it's worth building them. They kill just as fast as zealots, but cost more, and are higher tech. They deal less damage to light units than marines do, shorter range, and little damage to anything else, and can't shoot up. I'm pretty sure all gateway units now lose to marines. Stargate units don't do much better, so I guess robo or archon... Though my luck with archon against marine isn't much better, the longer range is deadly.
Honestly I haven't been able to beat a terran player since the change. Though I haven't gotten any drops and almost no liberators. I've just had a really hard time getting to HT and storm before terran can start making marines and sending them at me. I guess there's no point in bothering with drops when you can just push with marines and win.
I keep getting stuck in the same place. I know if I don't harass and kill SVC's/Drones, they'll macro up and I'll lose. But at the same time, if I don't have every one of my units at home to defend, I'll lose to marines or ling run by's.
|
On February 01 2016 03:29 Weltall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2016 01:42 ZAiNs wrote:On February 01 2016 00:59 Weltall wrote:
After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs? Showtime 3-0d Firecake and Harstem 3-0d Bly yesterday in the IEM qualifiers (post-patch). Check out the VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2/v/38707043. Harstem won a game on Central Protocol and Showtime won on Prion. I watched these replays, but zergs play really passive with only late harass, when protoss unit count become useful to defend. Honestly I never saw in premier tournaments any zerg doing dirty builds zergs do in ladder (master league). Would like to see some game with pool first, proxy hatchery, speedling rushes or ravager all ins.
Check out Super vs. Ragnarok (GSL Code A day 7). Ragnarok opened pool first in gm 1 and 3 vs. Super's 1 gate nexus and he holds both times with probes and chrono'ed zealots. I'm pretty sure 1 gate nexus is safe vs. everything but I can't even remember the last time I've seen a proxy hatch.
Not sure what pool first has to do with PO nerf though since you're not going to have a mothership at that timing anyway.
edit: here's the VOD http://afreeca.tv/36840697/v/22243
|
On February 01 2016 06:02 Skyro wrote:Check out Super vs. Ragnarok (GSL Code A day 7). Ragnarok opened pool first in gm 1 and 3 vs. Super's 1 gate nexus and he holds both times with probes and chrono'ed zealots. I'm pretty sure 1 gate nexus is safe vs. everything but I can't even remember the last time I've seen a proxy hatch. Not sure what pool first has to do with PO nerf though since you're not going to have a mothership at that timing anyway. edit: here's the VOD http://afreeca.tv/36840697/v/22243
thanks man!
never thought about using probes to defend the nexus!
this was really useful! 
|
On February 01 2016 06:45 Weltall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2016 06:02 Skyro wrote:Check out Super vs. Ragnarok (GSL Code A day 7). Ragnarok opened pool first in gm 1 and 3 vs. Super's 1 gate nexus and he holds both times with probes and chrono'ed zealots. I'm pretty sure 1 gate nexus is safe vs. everything but I can't even remember the last time I've seen a proxy hatch. Not sure what pool first has to do with PO nerf though since you're not going to have a mothership at that timing anyway. edit: here's the VOD http://afreeca.tv/36840697/v/22243 thanks man! never thought about using probes to defend the nexus! this was really useful!
But wouldn't we lose so many probes we'd be at a huge economic disadvantage as well? At this point zerg would know we're on the back foot, and would probably take their second and third, and drone up behind it knowing we'd be slowed too much to punish that.
|
On February 01 2016 06:49 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2016 06:45 Weltall wrote:On February 01 2016 06:02 Skyro wrote:Check out Super vs. Ragnarok (GSL Code A day 7). Ragnarok opened pool first in gm 1 and 3 vs. Super's 1 gate nexus and he holds both times with probes and chrono'ed zealots. I'm pretty sure 1 gate nexus is safe vs. everything but I can't even remember the last time I've seen a proxy hatch. Not sure what pool first has to do with PO nerf though since you're not going to have a mothership at that timing anyway. edit: here's the VOD http://afreeca.tv/36840697/v/22243 thanks man! never thought about using probes to defend the nexus! this was really useful! But wouldn't we lose so many probes we'd be at a huge economic disadvantage as well? At this point zerg would know we're on the back foot, and would probably take their second and third, and drone up behind it knowing we'd be slowed too much to punish that.
How many probes you lose would depend on your micro but zerg gives up a lot of economy going pool first into early ling pressure. Watch the VOD yourself and look at how their economies are after the initial ling pressure is defended. I think the only way you can really be behind is if you both lose your Nexus and a lot of probes but in that case you probably got severely outmicroed. It helps to have your zealots and probes on different control groups. Also make sure your micro is not distracting you from your macro and pumping units from your gateway (again having these buildings on control groups helps).
Also don't really worry too much about zergs responding afterwards by double expanding. Remember that having a fast 3rd doesn't really boost their economy until they have enough workers to reach saturation on 2 bases and by that point you should have numerous options available to you to be aggressive.
|
Ok, so a few questions in regards to playing with the new nerfs. Do adepts have any purpose in PvT anymore? From the testing I saw with the new change, with 4 or less adepts against 4 or less marines, adepts can win. At 4 one adept lives barely. After that marines win. Even in low numbers though, trading one for one against a lower tech and cheaper unit doesn't seem like a good idea. Obviously adept changes only effected terran, so PvP and PvZ are still the same.
The next question is MSC. Is it still worth getting early? If so, should we still keep it at home, or bring it with out army? At best PO is only going to delay them for a few seconds, at worst they'll just change to a different nexus knowing you won't be able to defend that one now without any energy. Either way the only defense is to pull the army back, so wouldn't it just be better to bring the MSC with the army to recall rather than wasting time with PO?
So what are the options to protect from drops/run by's? Do we need to just leave units at every base to defend and move out with whatever units we have left? Or build multiple cannon's at each base?
|
How do you deal with those unscoutable mutas switch in PvZ ??? God damnit, i mean, i fight lurkers / spores for days and days and all of a sudden, bam, 20 mutas in your main ? Wtf ?
|
On February 01 2016 19:03 Barthy wrote:
How do you deal with those unscoutable mutas switch in PvZ ??? God damnit, i mean, i fight lurkers / spores for days and days and all of a sudden, bam, 20 mutas in your main ? Wtf ?
That is the Zerg advantage. I'm sorry, but there is nothing you can do honestly. You are probably going to take loses and maybe even lose the game. I don't know why Zerg's don't do this more. Its usually a free win when they do it. The only silver lining is your upgrades. If you have been minding your Forge, you should have a 2/1 or 3/1 upgrade lead by the late mid-game (when the typical Muta switch occurs). It is one of the few times where I've known Stalkers to fight favorably against Mutas.
That is why I always research Blink in the matchup, even if I'm not planning on going Stalker heavy.
|
On February 01 2016 00:59 Weltall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 23:41 KadaverBB wrote:On January 31 2016 23:16 Mozdk wrote:On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no. Please don't use this thread for whining. Doing my job for me, nice! Well, i'll try to be more costructive  After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs?
I 2 gate expand on maps with an open natural as you are right. You will die to early aggression. The ling drops are hard to hold, but I find it favorable to forge expands because the early units give you options to be aggressive if the Zerg 3 hatches.
As for the ling drops. The best solution ive come up with is making a quick 4th pylon to cover my main mineral line and putting a probe on patrol along the edge of my base for vision.
Proxy hatcheries? I do not have much experience with that. However, if its in base, get a pylon near it and at least 1 adept to deal with the lings and larva. (you can target fire the larva) and stalkers. A cannon near each mineral line indirectly shuts down the whole strat. And target fire any creep tumors you see. That's devastating if they go down.
As for Zerg stealing your natural with a proxy hatchery. That's actually pretty hard. I don't have an ample solution. I heard Robo works well, but I usually lose to this stuff. Get 1 Immortal to beat back the spines and the spores. An obs for the creep and a Warp Prism to counter harass as you take your late natural. But honestly I feel the Zerg is still ahead even if you respond correctly. Thank God so few people do it.
Stalker micro kills early Ravager rushes. Ravagers are actually pretty tame when they don't have any support to protect them. Otherwise I would tech to Robo Disruptor if its a later 2 base push.
|
On February 01 2016 19:03 Barthy wrote:
How do you deal with those unscoutable mutas switch in PvZ ??? God damnit, i mean, i fight lurkers / spores for days and days and all of a sudden, bam, 20 mutas in your main ? Wtf ?
If they're banking enough for the Mutas ideally you should be able to either kill them, do some economic damage, or at least feel that something is off and make your emergency Stargates and set up base defense. If your game sense isn't strong enough you can aggressively send in hallucinated Phoenixes or harass with Zealots/Adepts and try to see where the tech is. Or just open Phoenix (into Chargelot Archon Immortal Storm), they're very popular these days, partly because they deter Muta openings and switches.
|
On February 01 2016 19:03 Barthy wrote:
How do you deal with those unscoutable mutas switch in PvZ ??? God damnit, i mean, i fight lurkers / spores for days and days and all of a sudden, bam, 20 mutas in your main ? Wtf ?
Actually I've had good luck with this. If I get hit by a few waves of lings, I immediately go double stargate. They're either going roach/ravanger or muta at this point. Phoenix to deal with muta's, void rays to deal with roaches. I also build at least one oracle for detection, yeah it sucks for detection, but it's better than nothing when lurkers come knocking. After getting enough units to hold, I go chargelot/archon/immortal. If muta's show up now, they either attack my army, and my phoenix fly in to try to get some shots off before my archon eat them all, or they attack my base. If they attack my base, I attach theirs. Then I poorly micro (the only micro I know how to do) my phoenix to kill the muta's. Even just 16 muta's is still 32 supply that's not with the main army. As my units die, I like to warp in zealots and send them to scout for hidden bases, or to counter attack at other locations.
What's really been wrecking me is lurker/corrupter/overseer armies. The zerg turtles at home (obviously with ling runby's still to stall expansions), and builds lukers, corrupters, and overseers. Then masses the overseers/corrupters/overlords into a cloud to hide the lurkers. Lurkers can't be targeted then, and the overseer/corrupter destroys our detection, as well as any air army, while the lurkers make quick work of the ground army. Still haven't figured out how to handle that.
|
On February 01 2016 01:42 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2016 00:59 Weltall wrote:On January 31 2016 23:41 KadaverBB wrote:On January 31 2016 23:16 Mozdk wrote:On January 31 2016 22:49 Weltall wrote:
Just to besure: PvZ is now 0 chance of winning on map with open natural right?
Not 0 chance no. Please don't use this thread for whining. Doing my job for me, nice! Well, i'll try to be more costructive After the PO nerf, does anyone knows a good opening to not die off 2 base from lings pressure, lings drop, fast ravager/lurkers, prozy hatcheris or pool first?? If not, does anybody knows a good 1 base play to deal with zergs? Showtime 3-0d Firecake and Harstem 3-0d Bly yesterday in the IEM qualifiers (post-patch). Check out the VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2/v/38707043. Harstem won a game on Central Protocol and Showtime won on Prion.
dont copy my build from central, it is really risky and you will lose a lot of games with it. Try something similar to what Classic did today in proleague vs Curious on lerilak crest.
|
What do we do now when adepts are useless? I'm trying different styles of blink stalkers but MMM just rips right through them.
|
On February 02 2016 09:56 Daimai wrote:
What do we do now when adepts are useless? I'm trying different styles of blink stalkers but MMM just rips right through them.
I've got an idea, send in a warp prism with a dark archon. Take control of an SCV then load it into the warp prism and escape back. Use your units to try to defend while the SCV builds a CC and start marines, tanks, and liberators.
|
On February 02 2016 09:56 Daimai wrote:
What do we do now when adepts are useless? I'm trying different styles of blink stalkers but MMM just rips right through them.
Storm is still really good. Also since Oracle's revelation tags cloaked ghosts, it's much easier to avoid getting EMPed. My endgame is usually some kind of Tempests + Storm army. Nothing else kills mass bio + Liberator... Disruptors just suck.
On a separate note...
HOW THE FUCK do you stop these ridiculously abusive Marine/Cyclone/Tank/Liberator pushes? Off 1 base.
I get to his base to scout and he's walled off, then a Reaper chases my probe away. So you can't really scout it in time. Stargate seems like the only way to stop it.. but you can't REACTIVELY Stargate... so... just open Stargate every game?
Even opening DTs he had enough scans (somehow) to kill me. I'm at a total loss here.
|
HOW THE FUCK do you stop these ridiculously abusive Marine/Cyclone/Tank/Liberator pushes? Off 1 base.
I am defending it about 20% of the time and that is only if they don't wait for second tank to come out, i open stargate skip the oracle and make phoenix. Any advice will be welcome
|
Honestly I'm continuing doing adepts all ins and it works fine
|
On February 03 2016 00:36 Weltall wrote:
Honestly I'm continuing doing adepts all ins and it works fine
I like playing macro
|
On February 02 2016 23:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 09:56 Daimai wrote:
What do we do now when adepts are useless? I'm trying different styles of blink stalkers but MMM just rips right through them. HOW THE FUCK do you stop these ridiculously abusive Marine/Cyclone/Tank/Liberator pushes? Off 1 base. I get to his base to scout and he's walled off, then a Reaper chases my probe away. So you can't really scout it in time. Stargate seems like the only way to stop it.. but you can't REACTIVELY Stargate... so... just open Stargate every game? Even opening DTs he had enough scans (somehow) to kill me. I'm at a total loss here.
Firstly, you're either scouting too late or they're walling in early (you should Gateway scout). If you can't scout whether they are expanding or not then it's usually best to just go Stargate because it's the best at holding early stuff. You should get an Adept, then usually I go Stargate, Warpgate, MSc and the timings seem good. Go up to like 3 Adepts and keep your Phoenixes spread to catch drops, and your MSc/Adepts in a good position. You should be able to deflect a Mine/Helion drop pretty easily. Once the Phoenix count is a bit higher you should go up to 3 Gates and take gas at your natural, then send 1 towards your opponent's base along the attack path to see if they are pushing or scout their base. You should keep making Phoenixes and Adepts, use the Phoenixes to pick off reinforcements until you have to engage, then shade on top of them and pick up Tanks/kill Liberators.
On Ulrena it's comes so much faster and you can't really pick off reinforcements, so I've had most of my success with going Oracle (kill some SCVs) -> Void Rays instead of Phoenixes.
|
On February 03 2016 00:59 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 23:41 DinoMight wrote:On February 02 2016 09:56 Daimai wrote:
What do we do now when adepts are useless? I'm trying different styles of blink stalkers but MMM just rips right through them. HOW THE FUCK do you stop these ridiculously abusive Marine/Cyclone/Tank/Liberator pushes? Off 1 base. I get to his base to scout and he's walled off, then a Reaper chases my probe away. So you can't really scout it in time. Stargate seems like the only way to stop it.. but you can't REACTIVELY Stargate... so... just open Stargate every game? Even opening DTs he had enough scans (somehow) to kill me. I'm at a total loss here. Firstly, you're either scouting too late or they're walling in early (you should Gateway scout). If you can't scout whether they are expanding or not then it's usually best to just go Stargate because it's the best at holding early stuff. You should get an Adept, then usually I go Stargate, Warpgate, MSc and the timings seem good. Go up to like 3 Adepts and keep your Phoenixes spread to catch drops, and your MSc/Adepts in a good position. You should be able to deflect a Mine/Helion drop pretty easily. Once the Phoenix count is a bit higher you should go up to 3 Gates and take gas at your natural, then send 1 towards your opponent's base along the attack path to see if they are pushing or scout their base. You should keep making Phoenixes and Adepts, use the Phoenixes to pick off reinforcements until you have to engage, then shade on top of them and pick up Tanks/kill Liberators. On Ulrena it's comes so much faster and you can't really pick off reinforcements, so I've had most of my success with going Oracle (kill some SCVs) -> Void Rays instead of Phoenixes.
They're definitely walling in early, because I get there and they're dropping the 2nd supply depot but they don't need it. It's to hide what they're doing. On the maps with the "free" back expansions you can't tell if they've taken gas or if they've expanded. Gas is a safe assumption but expanded is not... so I guess that's where my trouble is.
If I do open Stargate I'm pretty good at defending it, but my trouble is with the fact that because you can't scout it you HAVE to open Stargate to avoid dying to it...
Also whenever I open Stargate and they're not all-inning I get my shit pushed in. Delays Blink and Storm too much.
Will have to keep experimenting I guess. Maybe I can scout with MsC, but some of these maps are huuuuuuge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
