On November 20 2018 06:02 Autofire2 wrote: In WoL near the end of it's lifespan, before all the ladders folded together, someone coached me to Diamond (used to be a Silver - Gold player before) using just 1 Rax FE into tons of economy and Marines + Medivacs, with the very occasional vikings and tanks thrown in if needed. Basically, he made me focus on just the fundamentals.
I just started again after over a year and I find LotV quite different.
I'm in P3 and wondering if I can just keep learning/relearning macro and viably hit Diamond+ going MM (or MMMM?) in each matchup. Or am I badly handycapping myself?
Theoretically yes. I knew a guy who made it into low diamond doing nothing but reaper expand into marine/marauder/medivac/tank. Never had any super detailed builds or timing attacks, just defended and out-macroed.
I'll be honest though, in my opinion the skill level of players in SC2 has increased a lot over the past few years. I took a 2 year break from beginning of 2016 to end of 2017, but when I came back it felt totally different. I used to roll through Plat/Diamond level players super easily, but I find myself struggling a lot more now. Granted, I still don't play nearly as much as I used to, but just from rewatching games and observing others I think players are a lot better than they used to be which could be a reason why you think it's different now.
On November 20 2018 06:02 Autofire2 wrote: In WoL near the end of it's lifespan, before all the ladders folded together, someone coached me to Diamond (used to be a Silver - Gold player before) using just 1 Rax FE into tons of economy and Marines + Medivacs, with the very occasional vikings and tanks thrown in if needed. Basically, he made me focus on just the fundamentals.
I just started again after over a year and I find LotV quite different.
I'm in P3 and wondering if I can just keep learning/relearning macro and viably hit Diamond+ going MM (or MMMM?) in each matchup. Or am I badly handycapping myself?
Good ol' WoL, I used to do the gasless 1 rack expand all the time in all matchups as well. Good times :-)
Not sure how I feel about this now though. To be honest, there are aggressive builds out there that can be very tricky to hold with a reaper expand into marines (2 reapers into 2 cyclones drop in TvT for example). And I think that those are impossible to hold with a gasless opening. Then again, I'm only diamond, and I suppose that someone with high master/GM level of build knowledge and skills/mechanics can do it up to low/mid-masters at least.
Personnaly I used to go reaper expand straight into Marine Tanks all the time, and after losing a few times to aggressive builds (cyclone drops, banshees, etc), I switched it up. Now I still go reaper expo, but into defensive 1-1-1 with 1 viking and a tank, into a quick 3rd, and only then do I go mass marines + upgrades + full on macro mode.
I do go reaper expand into bio in TvP and TvZ tho (with a 3 racks followup in TvP, with a second rack only in TvZ for the 16 marines stim drop timing).
What's the best comp in lategame tvp? Im master2 and feel clueless what to do even when Im ahead in income and equal upgrades and maxed out so far I havent found an answer to tempest carrier storm mothership.
On November 22 2018 10:56 HariSeldon wrote: What's the best comp in lategame tvp? Im master2 and feel clueless what to do even when Im ahead in income and equal upgrades and maxed out so far I havent found an answer to tempest carrier storm mothership.
What comp?
I just recently came back and was a former high masters guy. You are way ahead of me on skill but it does seem to me right now that it's very similar to when I left, in that if you get to the point you are talking about, fully maxed with full macro running, you likely lose. Terran still seems to have that window after stim and with 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades to harass, drop, etc, and it seems in my games thus far that this has not changed, that you need to do enough damage there to be ahead before you reach the late game.
I'd love to hear from the more recently seasoned guys, but in my later games that were more or less even, unless I got a really nasty cluster hit with window mines or something of that nature, it's rough. I tried some Thors, but they are just too big with bad pathing so they feel strong but peter out as they kite me. My standard MMM ball has remained pretty good as long as I stay diligent in doing damage and keep them on their toes.
Terran never was and still isn't the A move race, so the late game is really determined by how you do in the mid game. I play like a frantic nut with urgency at all times, and when I am able to do things like deny the third/forth, pick off enough gateway units to make him nervous, etc, that's when I'm able to finish the job.
On November 22 2018 10:56 HariSeldon wrote: What's the best comp in lategame tvp? Im master2 and feel clueless what to do even when Im ahead in income and equal upgrades and maxed out so far I havent found an answer to tempest carrier storm mothership.
What comp?
Well it depends on their comp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Vikings are very good vs tempests (6 vikings are enough to 2-shot them, 11 to 1-shot), but storm is the real danger. Always get 5-6 ghosts in lategame TvP unless they somehow never make high templar. The winner of the emp/storm battle should usually win the game. Your viking count depends on how much they commit to air but having a bit too many is usually better than slightly not enough, as if you can overpower them in the air you can just morph to ground mode.
Carriers aren't very good in the matchup because interceptors melt vs 3/3 marines while vikings focus the carriers down. Though again, it will depend on how good your emps are. Without storm their air army is really weak and vice versa.
If they don't make air at all they can't win lategame vs ranged liberators.
On November 22 2018 10:56 HariSeldon wrote: What's the best comp in lategame tvp? Im master2 and feel clueless what to do even when Im ahead in income and equal upgrades and maxed out so far I havent found an answer to tempest carrier storm mothership.
What comp?
Well it depends on their comp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Vikings are very good vs tempests (6 vikings are enough to 2-shot them, 11 to 1-shot), but storm is the real danger. Always get 5-6 ghosts in lategame TvP unless they somehow never make high templar. The winner of the emp/storm battle should usually win the game. Your viking count depends on how much they commit to air but having a bit too many is usually better than slightly not enough, as if you can overpower them in the air you can just morph to ground mode.
Carriers aren't very good in the matchup because interceptors melt vs 3/3 marines while vikings focus the carriers down. Though again, it will depend on how good your emps are. Without storm their air army is really weak and vice versa.
If they don't make air at all they can't win lategame vs ranged liberators.
Alright, thanks buddy. I've been playing around a bit with mech in tvp since new patch and while it seems better in general the lategame aspect has been challenging. Been trying pure air army but yeah ghosts seem necessary which means I need some zoning unit as well ie tanks or liberators. What comp do you think one should go for to beat protoss airarmy + storm if one goes the mech route?
On November 22 2018 10:56 HariSeldon wrote: What's the best comp in lategame tvp? Im master2 and feel clueless what to do even when Im ahead in income and equal upgrades and maxed out so far I havent found an answer to tempest carrier storm mothership.
What comp?
Well it depends on their comp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Vikings are very good vs tempests (6 vikings are enough to 2-shot them, 11 to 1-shot), but storm is the real danger. Always get 5-6 ghosts in lategame TvP unless they somehow never make high templar. The winner of the emp/storm battle should usually win the game. Your viking count depends on how much they commit to air but having a bit too many is usually better than slightly not enough, as if you can overpower them in the air you can just morph to ground mode.
Carriers aren't very good in the matchup because interceptors melt vs 3/3 marines while vikings focus the carriers down. Though again, it will depend on how good your emps are. Without storm their air army is really weak and vice versa.
If they don't make air at all they can't win lategame vs ranged liberators.
Alright, thanks buddy. I've been playing around a bit with mech in tvp since new patch and while it seems better in general the lategame aspect has been challenging. Been trying pure air army but yeah ghosts seem necessary which means I need some zoning unit as well ie tanks or liberators. What comp do you think one should go for to beat protoss airarmy + storm if one goes the mech route?
Skytoss always destroyed mech tbh, unless you find a way to mass BCs which toss has no counter to... if you can get there. But if you still want to mech I know thors with high impact anti air mode are actually really strong, especially in the new patch, so if you find the right amount of thors without dying to chargelot immortal that's the best option vs carriers/tempests.
On November 25 2018 20:09 OhThatDang wrote: So what new maps do you guys have vetoed
I will probably veto stasis, the lightning is off and the layout seems weird so it's probably as bad a map as para site.
Other than that it seems fine, Port Aleksander will probably be horrible in TvT tho with the drops :/.
The TvT meta will probably be volatile for a while
I definitely vetoed just parasite so far but I'm not sure about stasis, I feel like all the ledges only help Terran with tanks sieged in the right spot and the air blockers help as well.
Does Automation feel like it's too hard to defend for anyone on third?
As a mech player I feel like it's getting harder and harder to defend 3 bases... The distance seems to keep increasing from HotS and even with the tank buffs, it feels like things are getting too hard to cover again. Even back then in HotS maps with easy to defend 3rds, it was still a challenge to get 3 base vs Protoss. Like even if you know an attack is coming, it is hard to defend. And now protoss has adepts which are hard to defend because it's hard to get a high number of hellions/hellbats in time and the more open'd space and longer distance to get from your 3rd to your main (to defend drops) makes tanks even worse.
And now old cyclone is gone too T_T ahhh hope things will work out but I am struggling and it feels so hard to mech these days. I'm not trying to ezpz turtle and auto-win, which was rightfully nerfed/removed between HotS and LotV with the Raven rework and such, but getting a 3rd is so important and it feels tough to survive when the other races have such core-strength now. TvZ with the hydra based comp which has been buffed to be faster and stronger and thus viper support allows them to crush your siege tank position if you aren't on point with your defense, and TvP with them being able to have stronger and lower tier armies out and not need to turtle for Colossus or HTs/Archon. They can attack with adept/gateway/immortal/archon and they can have so many zealots/adepts with the attack.
If anyone has tips that would help. I am lost on what is a good BO opener these days to be relatively safe and macro with, to try to get to 3 base. I've been doing reaper expand in each MU. Is that the way to go? Is it too slow? Do I need to start going CC first in TvZ?
In TvP i have been going reaper expand into reactor hellion now that cyclones are gone. Depending on what I scout or want I may make 1-2 WMs from the factory too. From there I may go cloak banshee hellion into 4 fact on 3 base, or go 4 fact and just grab 1 early raven which would let me get my hellbat count higher than with cloak banshees.
In TvZ I just try cloak banshee hellion while getting a 3rd CC, then depending on what I scout go up to 3 facts then add 2 armories, or if I feel I can be greedy then 2 armories then 3 facts. Though I think the latter is too slow and is not a good idea in LotV anymore? From there in TvZ I do not try to do much except harass or poke with hellions maybe, until I get 4 base. I feel like I should not attack anytime before that because they usually go hydra based armies which is very strong in mid game and there is no reason for me to fight that since I can crush it easier with more tech and when I'm maxed out. I only feel like attacking when they go SHs which is the intended counterplay.
I'm just kind of lost because everyone gets everything out so fast, and I feel there is even less reason for me to attack now because they can get their stuff up faster than mech can get their stuff up, so it's better to wait until I'm maxed too. Back in HotS I would like to sometimes push protoss with hellbat tank when they try to get a 3rd, or even attack zerg with a ~150 supply army with +2/+2 while reinforcements stream in to max me out. Are these bad ideas now?
An idea I'm entertaining is that I should just put my army somewhere out near the middle of the map, instead of keeping it at home. Turret up the position. Then if zerg tries to engage with vipers to blinding cloud, I have space to unsiege and move back and re-siege while their vipers die to the turrets and vikings. And if they try to counter-attack, I'm in a good position to threaten killing them. Because even if I have AA at home, against a high number of vikings they will just run them in and blinding cloud everything anyway. Even when I try to split up my 15-20 tanks so that zerg can only use 1 blinding cloud for 1 tank, it feels like it is not enough. Sure zerg loses army and resources but then I am unable to grab another base and I am stuck on my position unless if I win the fight very efficiently. Maybe I am wrong though, need to adjust to the new timings of everything in LotV. Still used to HotS.
Or maybe I just need ghosts vs vipers now lol. I forgot to try that.
In TvT going bio, I often find myself in a position where I lose the game after being up like 50 supply and 2 bases simply because I can't STAND turtle terrans and would rather just attack, even into fortified positions.
That said, doing that with Marines and medivacs only (it's usually planetary fortresses + a few tanks that mess me up) is obviously dumb I just get frustrated that he's just sitting there.
What's the best transition when you have someone on the ropes like that? Like to close it out. Drops seem dangerous (though I sometimes try).
On November 26 2018 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: As a mech player I feel like it's getting harder and harder to defend 3 bases... The distance seems to keep increasing from HotS and even with the tank buffs, it feels like things are getting too hard to cover again. Even back then in HotS maps with easy to defend 3rds, it was still a challenge to get 3 base vs Protoss. Like even if you know an attack is coming, it is hard to defend. And now protoss has adepts which are hard to defend because it's hard to get a high number of hellions/hellbats in time and the more open'd space and longer distance to get from your 3rd to your main (to defend drops) makes tanks even worse.
And now old cyclone is gone too T_T ahhh hope things will work out but I am struggling and it feels so hard to mech these days. I'm not trying to ezpz turtle and auto-win, which was rightfully nerfed/removed between HotS and LotV with the Raven rework and such, but getting a 3rd is so important and it feels tough to survive when the other races have such core-strength now. TvZ with the hydra based comp which has been buffed to be faster and stronger and thus viper support allows them to crush your siege tank position if you aren't on point with your defense, and TvP with them being able to have stronger and lower tier armies out and not need to turtle for Colossus or HTs/Archon. They can attack with adept/gateway/immortal/archon and they can have so many zealots/adepts with the attack.
If anyone has tips that would help. I am lost on what is a good BO opener these days to be relatively safe and macro with, to try to get to 3 base. I've been doing reaper expand in each MU. Is that the way to go? Is it too slow? Do I need to start going CC first in TvZ?
In TvP i have been going reaper expand into reactor hellion now that cyclones are gone. Depending on what I scout or want I may make 1-2 WMs from the factory too. From there I may go cloak banshee hellion into 4 fact on 3 base, or go 4 fact and just grab 1 early raven which would let me get my hellbat count higher than with cloak banshees.
In TvZ I just try cloak banshee hellion while getting a 3rd CC, then depending on what I scout go up to 3 facts then add 2 armories, or if I feel I can be greedy then 2 armories then 3 facts. Though I think the latter is too slow and is not a good idea in LotV anymore? From there in TvZ I do not try to do much except harass or poke with hellions maybe, until I get 4 base. I feel like I should not attack anytime before that because they usually go hydra based armies which is very strong in mid game and there is no reason for me to fight that since I can crush it easier with more tech and when I'm maxed out. I only feel like attacking when they go SHs which is the intended counterplay.
I'm just kind of lost because everyone gets everything out so fast, and I feel there is even less reason for me to attack now because they can get their stuff up faster than mech can get their stuff up, so it's better to wait until I'm maxed too. Back in HotS I would like to sometimes push protoss with hellbat tank when they try to get a 3rd, or even attack zerg with a ~150 supply army with +2/+2 while reinforcements stream in to max me out. Are these bad ideas now?
An idea I'm entertaining is that I should just put my army somewhere out near the middle of the map, instead of keeping it at home. Turret up the position. Then if zerg tries to engage with vipers to blinding cloud, I have space to unsiege and move back and re-siege while their vipers die to the turrets and vikings. And if they try to counter-attack, I'm in a good position to threaten killing them. Because even if I have AA at home, against a high number of vikings they will just run them in and blinding cloud everything anyway. Even when I try to split up my 15-20 tanks so that zerg can only use 1 blinding cloud for 1 tank, it feels like it is not enough. Sure zerg loses army and resources but then I am unable to grab another base and I am stuck on my position unless if I win the fight very efficiently. Maybe I am wrong though, need to adjust to the new timings of everything in LotV. Still used to HotS.
Or maybe I just need ghosts vs vipers now lol. I forgot to try that.
Cyclones are stronger than before... You are just using them wrong probably lol
for TvZ I go gas first double fac (1-2-0) 1 reactor 1 techlab and I make 2x hellion 1x cyclone grab the cyclone upgrade and just kite and poke at the Zerg. Most zergs aren't really too well adapted to this yet? So I have a few games where I just kill their third hatch and then turtle up with tanks since their only option then is all in or macro from behind you go 3rd fac before 3rd cc and 3rd cc before double armory. Essentially you just go hellion cyclone until it stops getting free damage or their army gets too big at that point you start getting tanks and stuff too.
for TvT I do 2 hellions 3 reapers off of RFE and go banshees with 1-2 cyclones and a raven at home (2banshees1raven) and then just go standard into mech double armory before double fac etc etc.
TvP I do what maru and ty do 15 gas 16 rax 17 gas proxy rax first fac at home 2nd fac at their base 1 reaper then reactor then go cyclone mine 2 mines 1 cyclone and just poke at their natural most games I just kill them
On November 29 2018 07:58 Autofire2 wrote: In TvT going bio, I often find myself in a position where I lose the game after being up like 50 supply and 2 bases simply because I can't STAND turtle terrans and would rather just attack, even into fortified positions.
That said, doing that with Marines and medivacs only (it's usually planetary fortresses + a few tanks that mess me up) is obviously dumb I just get frustrated that he's just sitting there.
What's the best transition when you have someone on the ropes like that? Like to close it out. Drops seem dangerous (though I sometimes try).
Take every base on the map and go Sky Terran?
If you are up in supply and he has tanks near PF, can’t you just walk into his main / 3rd base with orbital?
There might be a few tanks as well but being up in supply should do it. Just make sure you have some Econ secured before yoloing.
Hard to say more without a replay tho
Full bases and sky Terran would probably do it with the new BCs but I’m pretty sure you can end the game faster
On November 29 2018 07:58 Autofire2 wrote: In TvT going bio, I often find myself in a position where I lose the game after being up like 50 supply and 2 bases simply because I can't STAND turtle terrans and would rather just attack, even into fortified positions.
That said, doing that with Marines and medivacs only (it's usually planetary fortresses + a few tanks that mess me up) is obviously dumb I just get frustrated that he's just sitting there.
What's the best transition when you have someone on the ropes like that? Like to close it out. Drops seem dangerous (though I sometimes try).
Take every base on the map and go Sky Terran?
If you are up in supply and he has tanks near PF, can’t you just walk into his main / 3rd base with orbital?
There might be a few tanks as well but being up in supply should do it. Just make sure you have some Econ secured before yoloing.
Hard to say more without a replay tho
Full bases and sky Terran would probably do it with the new BCs but I’m pretty sure you can end the game faster
You just make a few to poke at your opponent or you leave the cyclones at home to defend. But don't mass em vs T because it only takes 2 siegetank shots to kill them they have less HP than marauders
On November 26 2018 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: As a mech player I feel like it's getting harder and harder to defend 3 bases... The distance seems to keep increasing from HotS and even with the tank buffs, it feels like things are getting too hard to cover again. Even back then in HotS maps with easy to defend 3rds, it was still a challenge to get 3 base vs Protoss. Like even if you know an attack is coming, it is hard to defend. And now protoss has adepts which are hard to defend because it's hard to get a high number of hellions/hellbats in time and the more open'd space and longer distance to get from your 3rd to your main (to defend drops) makes tanks even worse.
And now old cyclone is gone too T_T ahhh hope things will work out but I am struggling and it feels so hard to mech these days. I'm not trying to ezpz turtle and auto-win, which was rightfully nerfed/removed between HotS and LotV with the Raven rework and such, but getting a 3rd is so important and it feels tough to survive when the other races have such core-strength now. TvZ with the hydra based comp which has been buffed to be faster and stronger and thus viper support allows them to crush your siege tank position if you aren't on point with your defense, and TvP with them being able to have stronger and lower tier armies out and not need to turtle for Colossus or HTs/Archon. They can attack with adept/gateway/immortal/archon and they can have so many zealots/adepts with the attack.
If anyone has tips that would help. I am lost on what is a good BO opener these days to be relatively safe and macro with, to try to get to 3 base. I've been doing reaper expand in each MU. Is that the way to go? Is it too slow? Do I need to start going CC first in TvZ?
In TvP i have been going reaper expand into reactor hellion now that cyclones are gone. Depending on what I scout or want I may make 1-2 WMs from the factory too. From there I may go cloak banshee hellion into 4 fact on 3 base, or go 4 fact and just grab 1 early raven which would let me get my hellbat count higher than with cloak banshees.
In TvZ I just try cloak banshee hellion while getting a 3rd CC, then depending on what I scout go up to 3 facts then add 2 armories, or if I feel I can be greedy then 2 armories then 3 facts. Though I think the latter is too slow and is not a good idea in LotV anymore? From there in TvZ I do not try to do much except harass or poke with hellions maybe, until I get 4 base. I feel like I should not attack anytime before that because they usually go hydra based armies which is very strong in mid game and there is no reason for me to fight that since I can crush it easier with more tech and when I'm maxed out. I only feel like attacking when they go SHs which is the intended counterplay.
I'm just kind of lost because everyone gets everything out so fast, and I feel there is even less reason for me to attack now because they can get their stuff up faster than mech can get their stuff up, so it's better to wait until I'm maxed too. Back in HotS I would like to sometimes push protoss with hellbat tank when they try to get a 3rd, or even attack zerg with a ~150 supply army with +2/+2 while reinforcements stream in to max me out. Are these bad ideas now?
An idea I'm entertaining is that I should just put my army somewhere out near the middle of the map, instead of keeping it at home. Turret up the position. Then if zerg tries to engage with vipers to blinding cloud, I have space to unsiege and move back and re-siege while their vipers die to the turrets and vikings. And if they try to counter-attack, I'm in a good position to threaten killing them. Because even if I have AA at home, against a high number of vikings they will just run them in and blinding cloud everything anyway. Even when I try to split up my 15-20 tanks so that zerg can only use 1 blinding cloud for 1 tank, it feels like it is not enough. Sure zerg loses army and resources but then I am unable to grab another base and I am stuck on my position unless if I win the fight very efficiently. Maybe I am wrong though, need to adjust to the new timings of everything in LotV. Still used to HotS.
Or maybe I just need ghosts vs vipers now lol. I forgot to try that.
Cyclones are stronger than before... You are just using them wrong probably lol
for TvZ I go gas first double fac (1-2-0) 1 reactor 1 techlab and I make 2x hellion 1x cyclone grab the cyclone upgrade and just kite and poke at the Zerg. Most zergs aren't really too well adapted to this yet? So I have a few games where I just kill their third hatch and then turtle up with tanks since their only option then is all in or macro from behind you go 3rd fac before 3rd cc and 3rd cc before double armory. Essentially you just go hellion cyclone until it stops getting free damage or their army gets too big at that point you start getting tanks and stuff too.
for TvT I do 2 hellions 3 reapers off of RFE and go banshees with 1-2 cyclones and a raven at home (2banshees1raven) and then just go standard into mech double armory before double fac etc etc.
TvP I do what maru and ty do 15 gas 16 rax 17 gas proxy rax first fac at home 2nd fac at their base 1 reaper then reactor then go cyclone mine 2 mines 1 cyclone and just poke at their natural most games I just kill them
What league are you playing in/do you have a link to a replay where Maru does this?
On November 26 2018 09:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: As a mech player I feel like it's getting harder and harder to defend 3 bases... The distance seems to keep increasing from HotS and even with the tank buffs, it feels like things are getting too hard to cover again. Even back then in HotS maps with easy to defend 3rds, it was still a challenge to get 3 base vs Protoss. Like even if you know an attack is coming, it is hard to defend. And now protoss has adepts which are hard to defend because it's hard to get a high number of hellions/hellbats in time and the more open'd space and longer distance to get from your 3rd to your main (to defend drops) makes tanks even worse.
And now old cyclone is gone too T_T ahhh hope things will work out but I am struggling and it feels so hard to mech these days. I'm not trying to ezpz turtle and auto-win, which was rightfully nerfed/removed between HotS and LotV with the Raven rework and such, but getting a 3rd is so important and it feels tough to survive when the other races have such core-strength now. TvZ with the hydra based comp which has been buffed to be faster and stronger and thus viper support allows them to crush your siege tank position if you aren't on point with your defense, and TvP with them being able to have stronger and lower tier armies out and not need to turtle for Colossus or HTs/Archon. They can attack with adept/gateway/immortal/archon and they can have so many zealots/adepts with the attack.
If anyone has tips that would help. I am lost on what is a good BO opener these days to be relatively safe and macro with, to try to get to 3 base. I've been doing reaper expand in each MU. Is that the way to go? Is it too slow? Do I need to start going CC first in TvZ?
In TvP i have been going reaper expand into reactor hellion now that cyclones are gone. Depending on what I scout or want I may make 1-2 WMs from the factory too. From there I may go cloak banshee hellion into 4 fact on 3 base, or go 4 fact and just grab 1 early raven which would let me get my hellbat count higher than with cloak banshees.
In TvZ I just try cloak banshee hellion while getting a 3rd CC, then depending on what I scout go up to 3 facts then add 2 armories, or if I feel I can be greedy then 2 armories then 3 facts. Though I think the latter is too slow and is not a good idea in LotV anymore? From there in TvZ I do not try to do much except harass or poke with hellions maybe, until I get 4 base. I feel like I should not attack anytime before that because they usually go hydra based armies which is very strong in mid game and there is no reason for me to fight that since I can crush it easier with more tech and when I'm maxed out. I only feel like attacking when they go SHs which is the intended counterplay.
I'm just kind of lost because everyone gets everything out so fast, and I feel there is even less reason for me to attack now because they can get their stuff up faster than mech can get their stuff up, so it's better to wait until I'm maxed too. Back in HotS I would like to sometimes push protoss with hellbat tank when they try to get a 3rd, or even attack zerg with a ~150 supply army with +2/+2 while reinforcements stream in to max me out. Are these bad ideas now?
An idea I'm entertaining is that I should just put my army somewhere out near the middle of the map, instead of keeping it at home. Turret up the position. Then if zerg tries to engage with vipers to blinding cloud, I have space to unsiege and move back and re-siege while their vipers die to the turrets and vikings. And if they try to counter-attack, I'm in a good position to threaten killing them. Because even if I have AA at home, against a high number of vikings they will just run them in and blinding cloud everything anyway. Even when I try to split up my 15-20 tanks so that zerg can only use 1 blinding cloud for 1 tank, it feels like it is not enough. Sure zerg loses army and resources but then I am unable to grab another base and I am stuck on my position unless if I win the fight very efficiently. Maybe I am wrong though, need to adjust to the new timings of everything in LotV. Still used to HotS.
Or maybe I just need ghosts vs vipers now lol. I forgot to try that.
Cyclones are stronger than before... You are just using them wrong probably lol
for TvZ I go gas first double fac (1-2-0) 1 reactor 1 techlab and I make 2x hellion 1x cyclone grab the cyclone upgrade and just kite and poke at the Zerg. Most zergs aren't really too well adapted to this yet? So I have a few games where I just kill their third hatch and then turtle up with tanks since their only option then is all in or macro from behind you go 3rd fac before 3rd cc and 3rd cc before double armory. Essentially you just go hellion cyclone until it stops getting free damage or their army gets too big at that point you start getting tanks and stuff too.
for TvT I do 2 hellions 3 reapers off of RFE and go banshees with 1-2 cyclones and a raven at home (2banshees1raven) and then just go standard into mech double armory before double fac etc etc.
TvP I do what maru and ty do 15 gas 16 rax 17 gas proxy rax first fac at home 2nd fac at their base 1 reaper then reactor then go cyclone mine 2 mines 1 cyclone and just poke at their natural most games I just kill them
Hey man, thanks so much for the reply!!! I was able to find some use for the new cyclones and they are harder to use (np there, the old cyclones were ez a move lol), but I guess I realized that if I wanted to use cyclones I can, I just need to commit with a build that lets me get factories out earlier, and I need to make more than 1 factory for it. Whether it be hellions or WM support, or just even multiple tech lab facts for cyclones.
I really like your ideas and builds, I am realizing now I think that in TvT, going reapers+hellions is totally fine to be safe (I keep dying to 2 reaper hellion and such), even if it slows down your econ and other things a bit.
Thanks a lot for sharing your gameplans! Gonna try them out now, I'm excited!
ALSO going to try out gas first a LOT now, that sounds very fun! I loved gas first hellion shenanigans in HotS!
(I guess part of it is, I didn't realize due to new LotV econ, it is more feasible to have multiple factory production early on, unlike HotS where you usually couldn't get much production up with mech. So the LotV econ changes weren't a straight up nerf to mech, I was simply doing builds that didn't allow me to have more than 1 factory early, such as 1/1/1 instead of just getting 2-3 factories real quick and such!)
Question: In TvZ do you get the reactor hellions first then the cyclone always? Or sometimes tech lab cyclone first?
On December 01 2018 13:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Question: In TvZ do you get the reactor hellions first then the cyclone always? Or sometimes tech lab cyclone first?
you've got 2 safe options :
hellion / banshee marine / tank
everything else is for series-play only.
the double-fact build described by Ryu3600 is vulnerable to all-ins.
I'm talking about double-fact, (reactor on fact #1, techlab on fact #2), no starport, no banshee, pure hellion / cyclone. if you do that every game, eventually some smart zerg will just all-in you. you can't hold a well-executed roach / ravager / ling all-in without a banshee or tanks.
imo, the best opening for speed-mech is as follows:
cc first (cut scv production to get the cc down faster) start 1 scv raxx again, cut scv production until gas #1 goes down gas #1 restart scv production and immediately send an scv to scout z's expansion timing gas #2
depending on what the scv sees, you choose to build the fact as part of your main wall, or further back (away from ravager biles).
build a reaper. put 2 scvs only on each gas as soon as you start the reaper throw down the first fact 3rd cc put the other boys back on gas starport make 6 hellions and 1 uncloaked banshee. stop hellion production at 6 if you feel safe. throw down 2nd fact as soon as you start the banshee throw down armory as you can afford
don't attack zerg at all. just poke out on the map with your hellion / banshee, keeping an eye on the attack paths. maybe sack your reaper to get a good look at his infrastructure, but seriously, don't even try to kill probes
+1 vehicle plating throw down facts #3 and #4 make the first cyclone for kill overlords throw down facts #5, #6 and #7 as soon as you start mining from your 3rd base reactor on raxx (for fact #7) factory #8 as soon as you can afford START SAVING SCANS!
6 techlabs, 2 reactors
try poke in with your banshee to scout his lair tech. scan in necessary. priotize your upgrades accordingly:
blue-flame + drilling claws vs ling / bane / hydra mag-field + drilling claws vs roach / ravager
+2 vehicle plating. don't get 2nd armory until all 8 factories and add-ons are finished. you don't need vehicle weapons with mass cyclone
get only 2-3 tanks for defense only (1 parked at your third, to shoot lings which attack your depot-wall, and maybe 1 more parked nearby to double-shot baneling runbys)
now you got a shitload of hellion / cyclone and maybe some mines. the only zerg unit that can catch you off-creep are lings. cyclones out-range and out-speed everything else. feel free to split your army into 2 and play multi-pronged speed-mech. hatcheries go down so, so fast to lock-on. use your hellions to soak damage for your cyclones. sacrifice them to safe your cyclones if necessary. use widow mines to guard your retreat paths and grant vision so you can see if zerg is trying to flank. use the mines to block hatcheries. mines are pretty fast on the ground too... creep will be limited because of how mobile you are. widow mines = mech creep
I don't see any reason to build tanks if zerg doesn't have infestors / lurkers :shrug:
with this style, my vZ winrate is like 78% this season (most of those loses come from experimenting). I play mostly vs gms / m1s on EU. give it a shot. it's a lot more fun than turtling with tanks until +2/+2
edit: if you make 1 banshee, zerg has to delay any roach / ravager all-in until he has overlord speed to ferry queens across the map. that buys you a hell of a lot of time... GuMiho usually makes 1 uncloaked banshee for defense when playing 3cc into mech, but he tends to go double armory before adding additional facts. I think on the current patch, starting fact #2 when you start the banshee is elegant, efficient, and gives you the opportunity to build a quick tank if you catch a sniff of zerg cheese
So this video is Maru and Stats playing in a bo3 uploaded by Dummy1/Depressing Starcraft he posts a lot in the maru fanclub I highly reccommend supporting him and subscribing to his channel because of what he does but here is a replay to what maru does in TvP, there are some vods for TvT and for TvZ he does Cyclone Hellion Banshee
I want to try cheesing my way to the top of the ladder. Anyone know where I can find some good cheese builds to practice/learn for each matchup?
Liquipedia doesn't feel like it's got up to date builds, and Spawning Tool honestly feels like the Mobafire of build websites where you can find a lot of misinformation.
EPT
