EPTI usually do 4 Tech, 1 Reactor but losing the air battle against bio means losing the game, so maybe it is better to go 3 Tech Factories, 2 Reactor factories in order to get more vikings?
The LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 95
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I usually do 4 Tech, 1 Reactor but losing the air battle against bio means losing the game, so maybe it is better to go 3 Tech Factories, 2 Reactor factories in order to get more vikings? | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1137 Posts
On December 05 2018 02:03 MockHamill wrote: In TvT if you play mech vs bio, what is the correct addons for your 5 factories? I usually do 4 Tech, 1 Reactor but losing the air battle against bio means losing the game, so maybe it is better to go 3 Tech Factories, 2 Reactor factories in order to get more vikings? you can't afford 5 factories vs bio, period. fully saturated 3-base mech cannot afford non-stop double armory + reactor starport + 5 factories, regardless of the add-ons. 3-base mech can't even afford missile turrets if you produce non-stop from 2 reactors, 2 tech-labs, reactor starport and double armory (edit: this is only true in TvT, because of the relatively low-eco nature of the early-game. you often have to mine a significantly more resources to get to 3-bases vT) producing from 5 factories requires that you cut / delay starport units building missile turrets requires that you cut / delay hellions hellions, vikings and medivacs build really fast. that means you are building depots non-stop. this really hurts your income... instead of building missile turrets, it is better to non-stop pump hellions, medivacs and vikings. you can boost your hellbats home and dump them on top of the bio. vikings are your missile turrets. unless you forced the bio player to make missile turrets of his own during the early game (banshees, hellbat drops), I would not build missile turrets at all before +2/+2. I think the absolute best time to build an engi bay vs bio is just before you march across the map with +2/+2. bring a handful of SCVs and turret push as deep as you can the reason why you traditionally see 5 factories vZ is because you don't necessarily have to pump the starport non-stop. air supremacy is much more expensive vT. fully saturated 3-base mech vZ can (almost) afford non-stop production from 8 factories (6 techlabs, 2 reactors) if you limit yourself to 1 armory, no starport production, no turrets, no engi bay. this also requires that you cut unit production at certain key timings... for example, you can be greedy after you have 1 banshee on the field because zerg can't shoot up (unless queens in an overlord, but that's super all-in and easy to scout). in TvT, there are fewer opportunities to cut unit production. I feel like you need to pump units non-stop because of doom drops. if you don't have a unit cycle about to spawn, or cycle that has just recently spawned which can run back into your main, you're pretty much dead. mass tank mech vs bio only seems to work in master / low GM. most of the usual mech suspects at pro KR level go mass hellions. the hellion : tank ratio is often slightly greater than 2 : 1. the reason for this is because bio burst damage is so high... the only unit that can really compete with this rate of fire is the hellbat. hellions / hellbats are the key to walking across the map. tanks are the key once you actually get across the map. if you try to cut / delay your double upgrades, a smart bio player can wait until he has 2-2 and 8 raxx before he attacks. if you cut / delay starport production, a smart bio player will wait until he has air supremacy. because you are turtling with tanks during a large portion of the mid-game, the bio player doesn't have to burn scans on tank vs tank. he can scan your buildings instead. this makes it so easy for the bio player to abuse any corners you try to cut. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10348 Posts
On December 03 2018 22:59 SHODAN wrote: you've got 2 safe options : hellion / banshee marine / tank everything else is for series-play only. the double-fact build described by Ryu3600 is vulnerable to all-ins. I'm talking about double-fact, (reactor on fact #1, techlab on fact #2), no starport, no banshee, pure hellion / cyclone. if you do that every game, eventually some smart zerg will just all-in you. you can't hold a well-executed roach / ravager / ling all-in without a banshee or tanks. imo, the best opening for speed-mech is as follows: cc first (cut scv production to get the cc down faster) start 1 scv raxx again, cut scv production until gas #1 goes down gas #1 restart scv production and immediately send an scv to scout z's expansion timing gas #2 depending on what the scv sees, you choose to build the fact as part of your main wall, or further back (away from ravager biles). build a reaper. put 2 scvs only on each gas as soon as you start the reaper throw down the first fact 3rd cc put the other boys back on gas starport make 6 hellions and 1 uncloaked banshee. stop hellion production at 6 if you feel safe. throw down 2nd fact as soon as you start the banshee throw down armory as you can afford don't attack zerg at all. just poke out on the map with your hellion / banshee, keeping an eye on the attack paths. maybe sack your reaper to get a good look at his infrastructure, but seriously, don't even try to kill probes +1 vehicle plating throw down facts #3 and #4 make the first cyclone for kill overlords throw down facts #5, #6 and #7 as soon as you start mining from your 3rd base reactor on raxx (for fact #7) factory #8 as soon as you can afford START SAVING SCANS! 6 techlabs, 2 reactors try poke in with your banshee to scout his lair tech. scan in necessary. priotize your upgrades accordingly: blue-flame + drilling claws vs ling / bane / hydra mag-field + drilling claws vs roach / ravager +2 vehicle plating. don't get 2nd armory until all 8 factories and add-ons are finished. you don't need vehicle weapons with mass cyclone get only 2-3 tanks for defense only (1 parked at your third, to shoot lings which attack your depot-wall, and maybe 1 more parked nearby to double-shot baneling runbys) now you got a shitload of hellion / cyclone and maybe some mines. the only zerg unit that can catch you off-creep are lings. cyclones out-range and out-speed everything else. feel free to split your army into 2 and play multi-pronged speed-mech. hatcheries go down so, so fast to lock-on. use your hellions to soak damage for your cyclones. sacrifice them to safe your cyclones if necessary. use widow mines to guard your retreat paths and grant vision so you can see if zerg is trying to flank. use the mines to block hatcheries. mines are pretty fast on the ground too... creep will be limited because of how mobile you are. widow mines = mech creep I don't see any reason to build tanks if zerg doesn't have infestors / lurkers :shrug: with this style, my vZ winrate is like 78% this season (most of those loses come from experimenting). I play mostly vs gms / m1s on EU. give it a shot. it's a lot more fun than turtling with tanks until +2/+2 edit: if you make 1 banshee, zerg has to delay any roach / ravager all-in until he has overlord speed to ferry queens across the map. that buys you a hell of a lot of time... GuMiho usually makes 1 uncloaked banshee for defense when playing 3cc into mech, but he tends to go double armory before adding additional facts. I think on the current patch, starting fact #2 when you start the banshee is elegant, efficient, and gives you the opportunity to build a quick tank if you catch a sniff of zerg cheese Wow, thank you so much. You pretty much typed me an entire concise guide of what sounds like a fun TvZ build! So many details and how to adapt and such. I will have to practice this a bit and see how it goes. I'll come back with updates! I have to disagree with turtling with tanks not being fun as fun though... JK X) Thanks for your TvT response to Mock too. I'm learning so much. On December 03 2018 23:06 Ryu3600 wrote: So this video is Maru and Stats playing in a bo3 uploaded by Dummy1/Depressing Starcraft he posts a lot in the maru fanclub I highly reccommend supporting him and subscribing to his channel because of what he does but here is a replay to what maru does in TvP, there are some vods for TvT and for TvZ he does Cyclone Hellion Banshee Thank you too you too! I will watch these VODs. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1137 Posts
On December 05 2018 10:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, thank you so much. You pretty much typed me an entire concise guide of what sounds like a fun TvZ build! So many details and how to adapt and such. I will have to practice this a bit and see how it goes. I'll come back with updates! I have to disagree with turtling with tanks not being fun as fun though... JK X) Thanks for your TvT response to Mock too. I'm learning so much. Thank you too you too! I will watch these VODs. here are some games I just played with the speed-mech style: https://drop.sc/replay/9156489 https://drop.sc/replay/9156633 + zerg tears to wash it down  )![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DD7FNwu.png) | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10348 Posts
On December 05 2018 11:50 SHODAN wrote: here are some games I just played with the speed-mech style: https://drop.sc/replay/9156489 https://drop.sc/replay/9156633 + zerg tears to wash it down )LMAO! Thanks, I'll need to study these, will probably take a while but now I know what I can focus on :D Been really frustrated on ladder lately without the old cyclone, mech in general just feels so much harder and weaker than in WoL and HotS, especially without Raven for PDD, so thanks for all the help. I just gotta adapt, I'm still so used to HotS lol | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
I'm playing bio, mostly just marines and medivacs with tanks thrown in. Should I be trying to do something else? It's almost like I'm playing against the same player again and again. I hate controlling a tank + viking army, and I want to work on my macro but it just doesn't seem to work in TvT. Supply doesn't seem to mean much against tanks. I take advantage of his turtling by taking a lot of bases, sure, but then I'm just banking huge minerals and gas and have no idea how I should spend it. It's really frustrating me because otherwise, learning to macro better and just throwing units into the opponents base got me to Diamond in the last days of WoL ladder. In TvT I feel I can't even beat golds. Should I be dropping more? Abusing the fact that his army isn't mobile? But again we're talking two bases here. | ||
Poopi
France12901 Posts
Except for the proxied reactor factory with cyclone from home all-in, do you have some good builds? (allins, timing push, macro ones, anything) | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 05 2018 05:12 SHODAN wrote: you can't afford 5 factories vs bio, period. fully saturated 3-base mech cannot afford non-stop double armory + reactor starport + 5 factories, regardless of the add-ons. 3-base mech can't even afford missile turrets if you produce non-stop from 2 reactors, 2 tech-labs, reactor starport and double armory (edit: this is only true in TvT, because of the relatively low-eco nature of the early-game. you often have to mine a significantly more resources to get to 3-bases vT) producing from 5 factories requires that you cut / delay starport units building missile turrets requires that you cut / delay hellions hellions, vikings and medivacs build really fast. that means you are building depots non-stop. this really hurts your income... instead of building missile turrets, it is better to non-stop pump hellions, medivacs and vikings. you can boost your hellbats home and dump them on top of the bio. vikings are your missile turrets. unless you forced the bio player to make missile turrets of his own during the early game (banshees, hellbat drops), I would not build missile turrets at all before +2/+2. I think the absolute best time to build an engi bay vs bio is just before you march across the map with +2/+2. bring a handful of SCVs and turret push as deep as you can the reason why you traditionally see 5 factories vZ is because you don't necessarily have to pump the starport non-stop. air supremacy is much more expensive vT. fully saturated 3-base mech vZ can (almost) afford non-stop production from 8 factories (6 techlabs, 2 reactors) if you limit yourself to 1 armory, no starport production, no turrets, no engi bay. this also requires that you cut unit production at certain key timings... for example, you can be greedy after you have 1 banshee on the field because zerg can't shoot up (unless queens in an overlord, but that's super all-in and easy to scout). in TvT, there are fewer opportunities to cut unit production. I feel like you need to pump units non-stop because of doom drops. if you don't have a unit cycle about to spawn, or cycle that has just recently spawned which can run back into your main, you're pretty much dead. mass tank mech vs bio only seems to work in master / low GM. most of the usual mech suspects at pro KR level go mass hellions. the hellion : tank ratio is often slightly greater than 2 : 1. the reason for this is because bio burst damage is so high... the only unit that can really compete with this rate of fire is the hellbat. hellions / hellbats are the key to walking across the map. tanks are the key once you actually get across the map. if you try to cut / delay your double upgrades, a smart bio player can wait until he has 2-2 and 8 raxx before he attacks. if you cut / delay starport production, a smart bio player will wait until he has air supremacy. because you are turtling with tanks during a large portion of the mid-game, the bio player doesn't have to burn scans on tank vs tank. he can scan your buildings instead. this makes it so easy for the bio player to abuse any corners you try to cut. Thanks for this! I suspected that 5 Factories, 1 Reactor Starport and 2 armories was a bit optimistic on 3 bases. But the downside seems to be that you still need to out-tank the bio players since tanks is the only thing that give you an advantage compared to a bio player. Just producing tanks from 2 factories means that a bio player can catch up to your tank count if they go double factory. Maybe it is an idea to wait with getting armories until after you have your 3 bases and all factories and starport in place? Being behind on uppgrades when going bio is game deciding but I often find that I can beat 2/2 bio players just by having enough 1/0 tanks. This is on Diamond level though. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
On December 05 2018 20:43 MockHamill wrote: Thanks for this! I suspected that 5 Factories, 1 Reactor Starport and 2 armories was a bit optimistic on 3 bases. But the downside seems to be that you still need to out-tank the bio players since tanks is the only thing that give you an advantage compared to a bio player. Just producing tanks from 2 factories means that a bio player can catch up to your tank count if they go double factory. Maybe it is an idea to wait with getting armories until after you have your 3 bases and all factories and starport in place? Being behind on uppgrades when going bio is game deciding but I often find that I can beat 2/2 bio players just by having enough 1/0 tanks. This is on Diamond level though. In TvT with mech you can go 4Factory if its vs another mech player for faster starports. In almost every TvT situation with mech you want your double armory before your 2nd and 3rd factory. Your most killer timing vs another Terran player is the 9:30-9:45 +2 +2 max. Most games that go according to plan for me I just outright kill my opponents. Now you may have games where the bioplayer has a bigger air army or more tanks or a ton of rax. The answer to stopping this is simple just scan their main every now and then after an engagement so you can keep track of their tech. A lot of people don't do this. If you see they are making vikings and libs make 1-2 thors (At most) and add a 2nd starport. Your usual building order for most games with mech in TvT should be as followed: 1-1-1 Double Armory 3rd and 4th gas 3rd CC 2 more factories 5th and 6th gas (Try to do it when the 3rd base is 70% complete so when it does finish so do these) 4th and 5th factories (You should be 1-5-1 with a reactor starport and 2 reactored factories 3 techlab factories) If you have to go single armory you prioritize on armor. Mech units already do a ton of damage so being able to negate as much marine/marauder damage as possible is more ideal than increasing their already overkill damage. You want blue flame no later than 8:00 and then you either go double raven or liberator into quicker reactor for vikings. One thing most people in lower mmr (5k or below) don't really know is that mech has 0 ability to engage unless you have hellbats in medivacs. At minimum, if you're vs a heavy bioplayer you want 4-6 medivacs for hellbats. Vs Biotank you get atleast 2 liberators whenever you're ahead by 4 vikings (So if they have 2 you get 6 before you make any libs) Protip as well. Try to place your supply depots in a way that if they run into your third the supply depots act as a deterrent for them getting right onto your tanks, I like to place my depots in a way that if units move forward they naturally get put into an area where they clump up and take more splash damage. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
On December 05 2018 19:29 Autofire2 wrote: Guys I seriously cannot break turtle terran in TvT. I typically am up a good bit of supply on 3+ bases to his 2, he just sits back, masses tanks and kills me. I just CANNOT close it. I'm playing bio, mostly just marines and medivacs with tanks thrown in. Should I be trying to do something else? It's almost like I'm playing against the same player again and again. I hate controlling a tank + viking army, and I want to work on my macro but it just doesn't seem to work in TvT. Supply doesn't seem to mean much against tanks. I take advantage of his turtling by taking a lot of bases, sure, but then I'm just banking huge minerals and gas and have no idea how I should spend it. It's really frustrating me because otherwise, learning to macro better and just throwing units into the opponents base got me to Diamond in the last days of WoL ladder. In TvT I feel I can't even beat golds. Should I be dropping more? Abusing the fact that his army isn't mobile? But again we're talking two bases here. You literally just tech up. Get ranged libs build a stronger viking count, you don't need tanks unless he has so many missile turrets that you cannot siege his tanks with your liberators. If hes turtling super hard on 2 base you literally just need better tech units. | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
On December 05 2018 22:50 Ryu3600 wrote: You literally just tech up. Get ranged libs build a stronger viking count, you don't need tanks unless he has so many missile turrets that you cannot siege his tanks with your liberators. If hes turtling super hard on 2 base you literally just need better tech units. I'll try it - I start at Plat 3 (it's been a while and LotV is different) and I'm playing Gold players now mostly because of how badly TvT's have been going. Maybe I need a different build as well but right now, what happens is I have tons of marines vs his entrenchment. So if I know I'm up in bases - what practically do I do? Sit my army near my base, take more bases and get, say, lots of starports for liberators and vikings? | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1137 Posts
On December 05 2018 20:43 MockHamill wrote: Thanks for this! I suspected that 5 Factories, 1 Reactor Starport and 2 armories was a bit optimistic on 3 bases. But the downside seems to be that you still need to out-tank the bio players since tanks is the only thing that give you an advantage compared to a bio player. Just producing tanks from 2 factories means that a bio player can catch up to your tank count if they go double factory. Maybe it is an idea to wait with getting armories until after you have your 3 bases and all factories and starport in place? Being behind on uppgrades when going bio is game deciding but I often find that I can beat 2/2 bio players just by having enough 1/0 tanks. This is on Diamond level though. I wouldn't worry about bio players pumping 2 factories. tanks strip bio of its core advantage vs mech: mobility. babysitting all those tanks will make your opponent just as slow and immobile as you. 2 factories will make him weak in some other area: smaller marauder count, fewer drop-ships, late upgrades, delayed switch to air... you can't have your cake and eat it. the armory timing really depends on how the early-game played out. personally, I don't rush for the 2nd armory. vehicle plating is much more important when playing the hellion-heavy mech style. I've been digging up my pre-3.8 TvT builds and adjusting them for the current patch. let's reflect on the major changes that have happened since early LotV: 1) interference matrix 2) tankivacs removed from the game 3) reapers significantly nerfed 4) 3 supply lock-on cyclones in short, these changes reduce the strength of marine / tank, drops and banshees in the early-game. consequently, this makes the early-game economy more stable. SCV kills are much harder to come by. on the current patch, I think you can survive the early-game without a starport and without tanks on every map except Stasis. cyclone AA is insanely strong in the early-game. so, we're not making a raven. we're not making tanks. we're not dumping resources into reactor cyclones. what should you spend your gas on? fast armory - and I mean an obscenely fast armory! raxx gas #1 gas #2 6 boys on gas reaper factory 4 (or 3) boys on gas (even better: use one of those 4 boys to build the 2nd depot. code-s level efficiency )techlab on raxx swap factory to techlab cyclone #1 cc #2 6 boys on gas armory cyclone #2 factory #2 +1 vehicle plating blue-flame gas #3 (again, if you wanna be super efficient, put only 2 boys on this geyser until you get the natural minerals saturated. so... 8 boys mining gas in total) starport follow with medivacs or vikings, depending on your taste those 2 cyclones can do some serious work. they can pick off units as my opponent walks across the map with marine / tank / viking. they add an extra dimension to the viking numbers game. I won't necessarily lose the early-game because my opponent had a 1 viking advantage. so long as I can kill his ground army with hellbats, cyclones can clean up the rest. that fast armory and vehicle plating makes hellbats so much stronger. it also gives you the edge in viking vs viking, which means you always have an edge in tank vs tank. if the bio player is contesting my air supremacy on 3-base vs 3-base, I'll make a 2nd starport and reactor on my raxx. 4 factories (2 techlabs, 2 reactors) and 2 reactored starports. I don't build thors on the current patch. they are useless | ||
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
I just wanted to take a minute to appreciate that you guys are sharing your knowledge. It's so great to have this. Thank you. | ||
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OhThatDang
United States4685 Posts
On December 05 2018 19:29 Autofire2 wrote: Guys I seriously cannot break turtle terran in TvT. I typically am up a good bit of supply on 3+ bases to his 2, he just sits back, masses tanks and kills me. I just CANNOT close it. I'm playing bio, mostly just marines and medivacs with tanks thrown in. Should I be trying to do something else? It's almost like I'm playing against the same player again and again. I hate controlling a tank + viking army, and I want to work on my macro but it just doesn't seem to work in TvT. Supply doesn't seem to mean much against tanks. I take advantage of his turtling by taking a lot of bases, sure, but then I'm just banking huge minerals and gas and have no idea how I should spend it. It's really frustrating me because otherwise, learning to macro better and just throwing units into the opponents base got me to Diamond in the last days of WoL ladder. In TvT I feel I can't even beat golds. Should I be dropping more? Abusing the fact that his army isn't mobile? But again we're talking two bases here. switch to marine marauder medivac and start dropping him when he moves out etc etc. marine tank doesnt beat mech most of the time | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1137 Posts
On December 10 2018 10:34 BigRedDog wrote: A noob question. What is a good ratio of marauders and marines against Ling bling hydra? I add some mines as well. Thanks you want to have as few marauders as your micro abilities allow more marines = more damage dealt more marauders = more damage soaked same story with marine / marauder vP. you want a shitload of marines vs gateway-heavy armies. in TvZ, your buildings should look like this, in chronological order: raxx #1 = techlab (producing 1 marauder) raxx #2 = reactor (producing 2 marines) raxx #3 = reactor (producing 2 marines) raxx #4 = reactor (producing 2 marines) raxx #5 = reactor (producing 2 marines) (later in the game...) raxx #6 = techlab (producing 1 marauder) raxx #7 = techlab (producing 1 marauder) raxx #8 = techlab (producing 1 marauder) (supreme lategame...) raxx #9 = techlab raxx #10 = techlab raxx #11 = reactor sometimes you might want to spam marines from on all your raxx, including those raxx which have techlab add-ons. other times you'll just want to top up your army with a few marauders or ghosts | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
but in general you want to go a little more marauder heavy against Protoss then you do against Zerg. Marauders perform incredible if you get them into a situation where you can stutter step and kite your enemy whereas marines ... well if you arn´t able to propperly split and dodge storms banes etc don´t bother making too many of these scrubs! | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Stormhoof
Serbia182 Posts
problem vs P is : mass storms, even when my EMP hit all they just morph to archons which seems like they have no counter, and skytoss. When protoss sits on 3 bases and get mothership+air I just instantly know I have 1% chance winning air battle. Thanks a lot in advance for all suggestions! | ||
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