On December 23 2018 19:03 `dunedain wrote: Can someone explain the battlecruiser rush? The build and its intricacies? I keep losing to it, but die every time I try.
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.
Winter posted a guide and some recommendations on how to deal with it:
This is reaper FE into reactor hellion into Viking then BC from the starport. Winter recommends getting more queens to deal with it, basically. Spores kill drones and make it so that the BC’s can just go somewhere else, so going up to 7-8 queens is much better.
my vP winrate has jumped 5% in 3 days. Mvp-style 2 raxx bunker all-inning every game. has the shield battery nerf made this classic cheese viable again? especially with P being so cheeky about their gateway placements nowadays...
Hey guys. I'm in silver league and the only way that i can get a win is to go banshees into mass battlecruiser. Do you guys have any bronze proof build orders for each matchup?
On December 29 2018 01:10 Quantran wrote: Hey guys. I'm in silver league and the only way that i can get a win is to go banshees into mass battlecruiser. Do you guys have any bronze proof build orders for each matchup?
youre talking about banshee into battlecruiser which is more of a strategy than a "build." at silver level instead of following a "build" into the midgame, just focus on checking when you are supply blocked, when you have extra money, and when you are producing SCVs. when you are low on supply build depots, when you have lots of minerals build barracks (or static defense i guess if you play mech), when your bases aren't saturated make more SCVs. then when you get to 2 or 3 base mining just take all your shit and attack. if you work on your production that will take you out of silver. once you get the hang of the early game then you can start worrying about build timings
If you'd like help with general advice, I'd recommend taking a look at this guide for Terran. Until diamond or masters you can get by in every match up by just building a lot of marine/tank/medivac and steamrolling the opponent with more units by macroing better than they do, so focus on that and then start worrying about fancy stuff after you've done that a bunch.
If you have more detailed questions, you can post replays here and we can take a look and tell you what's going on.
there is nothing you can do versus protoss right now except simply playing better but even ty and inno and ruff easily lose to protoss players hundreds of mmr below them it's sad but its the truth
On December 31 2018 00:59 bigmechhero wrote: there is nothing you can do versus protoss right now except simply playing better but even ty and inno and ruff easily lose to protoss players hundreds of mmr below them it's sad but its the truth
I used to play macro or aggro with bio or bio/mine and mostly losing, often times badly, and against a variety of protoss playstyles. More importantly, I felt that at no point in the game did I have the edge, I've always felt at the protoss's mercy, from the start of the game to its end...
I've recently changed my style and have a bit more success now. At least I know that if I execute correctly, I have an edge, a strength that I know and that I can exploit. Basically, my gameplan now is to go up to 3 bases ASAP and go heavy liberators from there. In order to do this and not die, I save gas on bio (delay stim/shield, build mostly marines) and build tanks. I only build 4 medivacs, then switch to libs.
When I drop, I'm really conservative because I really don't want to lose any medivac (that would make me lose valuable liberator producing time). Any damage I get is mostly bonus. Once I'm on 3 bases, 6 geysers, I add 1 or 2 starports (1 TL, 1 reactor), fusion core, and produce liberators and upgrade their range.
Once I'm at 6-8 tanks, 4 medivacs (the only 4 I have produced) and a few liberators (but I'm producing them at least 3 by 3 at this point, if not 5 by 5), I take a 4th AND attack the toss at the same time (if he's not attacking me, obvisouly). I also stop bio upgrades at 2-2, and go into air upgrades (defense first). At that time, Protoss generally have a 4th base, charge + storm + collo/disruptor. But with tanks and libs, that's a fight you can take. The tricky part is making sure you're choosing the terms of the engagement...
Anyway, it's not perfect and it's not working all the time, but at least now when I attack I know that with my libs and tanks, the P has to be at least as careful as I am, and I generally have a window in which I can attack before he switches to air.
(Hopefully this is the correct place for this. Replay for you to check is at the bottom. Mods, if there's a better place for this, please let me know)
The case for 17/17
Hello, today I would like to present an argument on why I believe Terrans opening with a 17 gas, 17 rax is actually preferable to a standard 16/16. I will try to argue that there is precedent for breaking some fundamental rules we believe to be true already exhibited by other races, why the build works, and what fantastic opportunities are possible with this timing of our early game structures. Let's dig in.
A standard 16/16 Reaper FE is a build we all know and love. It allows us to scout around the map, poke our opponents base and see what's going on, and transition into standard play. However, I'm of the opinion that this build is actually inefficient. Through sheer chance, I got the random idea to try 17/17 instead. (I will argue my reasoning for doing all of this after I explain what the build actually is). Put more clearly, we make our depot as normal, and send our worker back to mine. We then send another SCV to build our barracks. As soon as we are at 17 supply, we make a gas and then a barracks. Yes, we will have floated money up until this point. However, the main advantage of this is we can actually then put a command center down BEFORE our orbital at 19 supply on location. We then make a tech lab, Marauder and Conc shell. A fantastic benefit of this is the moment our orbital command finishes, we are also just hitting 50 energy on the mains Orbital. This further leads me to believe this is a proper timing that we should be doing. We can then transition into a 2/1/1 with a fast third base and ebay for upgrades. We can get a fast widow mine to defend against an Oracle, or even opt into Cyclone if we deem it necessary. This is the basic framework of the opener.
Now let me explain why I believe this is a good thing. There's a lot to say, so buckle in.
I'll start off with justiication of "breaking" a fundamental rule, which is to spend your money as soon as you possible can. Protoss, for example, already breaks this rule. A Gate/Gas/Nexus/Core (GGNC) build breaks this fundamental rule. Protoss HAS enough money to make their Core before the nexus in a GGNC, but they choose not to in order to have more efficient timings and play more greedy - it is also safe because of the "tech units" they can get out with chronoboost. A stalker or an adept facilitates this rearrangement and makes it safe to do. Zerg, for example, does not get their gas the moment they possibly can - they delay it in favor of lining up their timings. Zerg also delays spending a larvae that they could have spent in favor of getting their hatch at 16. There are examples of the other two races "breaking" some fundamentals that we hold near and dear. Why can't Terran do this? Terran has stuck, religiously, to the 16/16 openers with very little deviation. Protoss has found a way to get a natural quicker than they "should", but Terran opts to do the same old thing.
Let's look at this another way. Terran already breaks this rule in the wrong way, in my opinion. While waiting on your rax to finish to make your orbital, you are already floating a lot of money in anticipation of the Orbital. We'll float up close to 400, then chunk back down to the low 200's. Again, from a fundamental standpoint, there is a float of money that is not being used perfectly. What if we rearranged when that float happens? Instead, we float right after the depot instead of later on. This allows us to be much more aggressive with our expansion timing and be safe while doing it.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Isn't this risky or something? Well, let's just look at some timings. A Chronoboosted Adept will pop at around 2:30, then have to travel across the map if it is sent straight across. Our first Marauder will pop at 2:20. Our second marauder pops at 2:40 with concussive shell finishing at this exact moment as well. We have effectively thwarted the early game pressure that is so annoying for Terrans to deal with right now. Holding your low ground is a giant pain currently against Protoss - By having these strong marauders as our early game defense, we are much more safe to continue our build. There are a few variants I have experimented with - Two marauders, Three marauders, Four marauders. Each has their advantage and disadvantage. Less marauders is more efficiently timed structures - We can get an earlier factory to get widow mines out to protect our mineral lines. More allows us to put more pressure on our opponent early and scout through pressure. I can't claim which is absolutely best as, personally, this is uncharted territory. I've never heard of a 17/17 before. I have also experimented with this build in TvT. The marauder is, again, out before a standard reaper and can even hold two rax reaper cheese. Against Proxy Reaper, the Marauder is, again, fielded before a standard reaper would be fielded, allowing us to have a better chance at defending.
Now, without a reaper, how do we scout? Well, in my opinion, there are two answers. We can either pressure with our marauders and infer what is going on by scouting the front, or we can NOT scout with the idea that we aren't going to be changing our build and it doesn't matter what they are doing. I'm sure better players than me can take this build much, much further than I can.
My argument is that there are fundamental aspects of Starcraft we may falsely hold to be true. Spending your money immediately is chief among them. But Protoss and Zerg already have rearranged their builds to allow them to be more greedy and efficient whilst being safe. I think it's time for Terran to do the same. This build allows us to get a much earlier natural command center, be safe on the ground entirely, with the option of pressuring or playing a very defensive minded game with a third CC. I've included a replay and sincerely implore you to check it out. I'm not an exactly 100% perfect player, but I tried to execute as well as possible to show you this opener. I truly hope someone takes this seriously and explores it, because I personally find it to be really cool.
Thanks for reading
LHK
If you have any doubts or need clarity, please just watch the replay. I think I did a good job showcasing the possibilities of this opener.
So I'm not gonna quote the post as it will be too long but there are more opening variations than 16/16 (Rax First) There is also 15 gas 16 rax (Gas first), 17CC (CC First) 16 Rax No Gas (Raxless expand) but that is as simple of an opening and clear of variations as zergs swapping between things such as 16 hatch/16 pool or 17hatch and 17pool in a similar fashion protoss also has their own mixes like going cyber first or nexus first. The builds main deviations are after this however; for an example there is the INnoVation 3CC build where he would open Rax first into normal expo but he would only get 1 gas and stay on 1 gas to get a quicker 3rd command center (1-1-1 on 1 gas) Or with CC First how some people opt to go into either 1-1-1, 3rax or even another CC. The main issues from what I can with your build is if you're opening marauder first off of 17/17 your first unit will already be delayed as well as your overall 1-1-1 timing and by going marauder and concussive you ultimately spend 100 unnecessary gas for an investment that you coinflip on needing early on which delays your factory by quite a bit if you're vs a Terran having a slower factory even if it does hold reapers is a coinflip on hoping your opponent goes 2rax reaper or sends their first reaper. What do you do if your opponent just decides to play RFE into a tank push? You are behind automatically. As for vs protoss going for such a quick adept there are ways to deal with it on both Gas first and Rax first that ultimately just come down to your scouting and reaction or how you decide to open examples: (RaxFirst)Marine first -> Reactor will give you 3 marines by the time the adept arrives (RaxFirst)Reaper marine and making the 2nd marine before a reactor will prepare you for a possible cyber first, if your reaper arrives and their nexus isn't complete then you can make a 3rd marine and again have 3 marines and a reaper by the time an adept arrives or if the nexus is done you just cancel the 2nd marine for the reactor. (Rax/GasFirst) Going double reaper quickly allows you to kite a quick adept and kill it if the reapers go across the map and catch the adept (Hard micro trick not recommended for most players) (Gas First) Just don't lose the reaper and get 2 marines and 1 hellion. As long as your SCV building the natural has full hp it will stay alive long enough to potentially run if an adept shows up earlier and your marine hellion can kill it but gas first is a coin flip vs toss so you may take some damage
As for the timing for builds such as 2-1-1 it has a very specific order that has been changed and optimized for a long time which allows you to get the maximum number of marines to fill 2medivacs with stim and hit as quickly as possible. On standard RFE (16/16) you have to cut workers to effectively make the 2-1-1 leave at its proper time (4:39 16 marines or 4:35 14 marines) But by adding marauders were already delaying the build by quite a bit and if we still do hit it on a reasonable time we would have had to cut a significant part of our economy.
I think you have some good ideas however, I think your time would be better spent on finding what your followup to certain openers such as 16/16 or 15/16 would be more effective as there is more room to explore. Overall I just think going 17/17 is too gimmicky and it doesn't really strike me as something that would work at all past masters 3.
No disrespect intended, Ryu. My Terran is at 5.3k and my Zerg is 5.5k, and this build has been working great for me. You're not delaying your first unit at all - Your marauder pops before a standard reaper pops. The issue in TvP right now is an inability to hold your low ground vs adept > stalker, and Terran ends up getting behind because of it. Many of the solutions right now are to simply eat that damage and try do so some damage on the other side with hellions - See Jason for example, or with a drop. This allows you to have a sturdy early game. I don't believe its gimmicky. Please watch the provided replay. The timings of the marauders are to hold off the pressure. You get your 2nd rax and factory at reasonable times. You have your mine out to deal with oracles. All the money is spent nearly perfectly. You can also go 1 marauder > marine and get a much faster factory into cyclone. There are many options here. I just am one person who is incapable of getting the tons and tons of data that would be needed to know how viable it is. Hence, my post, in hopes that other people can be intrigued and try it out. As for scouting, there are more ways to scout than with a reaper. T had to infer information in WOL nearly every time, or burn a scan, as reapers weren't super common.
On January 09 2019 22:04 LHK wrote: No disrespect intended, Ryu. My Terran is at 5.3k and my Zerg is 5.5k, and this build has been working great for me. You're not delaying your first unit at all - Your marauder pops before a standard reaper pops. The issue in TvP right now is an inability to hold your low ground vs adept > stalker, and Terran ends up getting behind because of it. Many of the solutions right now are to simply eat that damage and try do so some damage on the other side with hellions - See Jason for example, or with a drop. This allows you to have a sturdy early game. I don't believe its gimmicky. Please watch the provided replay. The timings of the marauders are to hold off the pressure. You get your 2nd rax and factory at reasonable times. You have your mine out to deal with oracles. All the money is spent nearly perfectly. You can also go 1 marauder > marine and get a much faster factory into cyclone. There are many options here. I just am one person who is incapable of getting the tons and tons of data that would be needed to know how viable it is. Hence, my post, in hopes that other people can be intrigued and try it out. As for scouting, there are more ways to scout than with a reaper. T had to infer information in WOL nearly every time, or burn a scan, as reapers weren't super common.
Thanks for your response.
Nah the early game does seem alright you'll definitely hold early on attacks fine but its the followup into the actual builds that I am most concerned about, how does this affect midgame timings? (Also I mean no offense either) I am glad to hear it works, I will check the replay when given a chance to im current just playing it out in my head but from what I can tell this would keep you alive early on it would just affect you later on say if you were to do a stim +1 timing vs toss or go 2-1-1 off of this
So, in conjunction with our medivac, we have 3 marauders, 9 marines, 2 mines (can make it 3 if we want), and a medivac at 5 minutes. We can push out and do a difficult to deal with timing on Protosses greedy third with this. It's not the craziest army in the world, but we have a third behind it, and mines will trade decently with gateway units. I don't really need to go into the control / way of manipulating the army, but that's not a weak early game army by any means. We have 3CC and 2/1/1 and can be heading toward single or double Ebay if we want. We can add 3 more rax and try to go all in. There is a lot of potential with the build, for a slight rearrangement in the early game.
The point is, it's not fair to say "How do these timings stack up against a reaper FE's timings" because they are entirely different openers that will get their power spikes at different times. Normally, you'd want stim and 2 medivacs for your power spike. But, perhaps the power spike for this build is different because of the marauders and medi/mines. Thus, it's unfair to compare them without extensive experimentation with the timings that will actually crop up.
Do you have any replays of the build vs another player around 5.3k? Also the army isn't too bad for its time especially considering the third. How many workers do you have by 6:15? I'm still just trying to wrap my mind around this.
Edit: Actually re-evaluating that push with the third CC just wouldn't work that isn't nearly enough units I don't think, maybe if they go really heavy into blink and only blink you'd be fine but its not a large enough force and in the case you're looking to punish a fast third or greedy protoss you wouldn't be playing greedy yourself you'd just outright kill them with 3rax or something.
I am getting back to SC2 and been playing a lot lately. I love aggressive playstyles, so would anyone be able to recommend some aggressive openers versus each matchup? For example, I know in TvZ we can go hellbat marauder, and I really like this too. Anyone got the BO for this and other aggressive openers for TvT and TvP? Much appreciated!
Idk what to do against protoss. I can beat gm terrans and zergs but i lose to even 4400 protoss... That why im stuck as 4900 terran atm... Nothing work... Colosi tempest storm too good.. 2 base allin rarly work... Protoss can defend 3 nexus ez... Im forced to 2 rax bunker allin every game and that just gamble... Wtf is the problem of blizzard to make protoss so strong
On January 14 2019 14:30 Eladmiara wrote: Idk what to do against protoss. I can beat gm terrans and zergs but i lose to even 4400 protoss... That why im stuck as 4900 terran atm... Nothing work... Colosi tempest storm too good.. 2 base allin rarly work... Protoss can defend 3 nexus ez... Im forced to 2 rax bunker allin every game and that just gamble... Wtf is the problem of blizzard to make protoss so strong
Do 3rax Stim +1 timing or go 1-1-1 mine drop into a stim +1 timing. Just do a timing really lol, only other option is fake proxy and know how to play your opponent off of the proxy lead
The consensus really does seem to be that timings are the only way to beat protoss. What if I really want to go to the late game, what are my options? Liberators any good?
EPT
