On December 16 2018 20:45 ZeRoX_TV wrote: I just started to play Terran recently and I have huge problems vs Protoss even tho that was my former race. I just dont know how to drop properly (this is case in all matchups) since when i played Z or P good Terrans always find a "hole" in my defence. Double drops always fail even tho I use corners of map to hide medivacs.
problem vs P is : mass storms, even when my EMP hit all they just morph to archons which seems like they have no counter, and skytoss. When protoss sits on 3 bases and get mothership+air I just instantly know I have 1% chance winning air battle.
Thanks a lot in advance for all suggestions!
If you hit EMPs and still lose to archons you must be pretty far behind / have the wrong composition or both. Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders), a factory with reactor for mines and 2 starport with reactors (or one of them with tech lab to research liberator range). With a good composition like this the chargelots will melt to the mines, and without chargelots the archons shouldn't even be able to reach your bio when you kite as they have half the range of marauders.
Drops are nice but you shouldn't do them blindly every game without taking your opponents strategy into account. If the guy turtles and expands slower theres absolutely no reason to risk it. It's also better and simpler if for example you send a double drop as a distraction and then push with your army somewhere else. If the drop is the only thing they have to deal with it's very easy for them to just f2 and destroy it. It's their entire army vs a portion of yours after all.
Fast air shouldn't really survive bio pushes, they don't have enough dps to kill stimmed marines healed by medivacs.
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
I meant 3 tech labs TvP in general, it's been the standard for the entirety of lotv. Sure marines are better vs chargelots, but more marauders and mines is even better unless theres colossi. Marines are ONLY good vs chargelots and bad vs literally everything else in the toss ground army.
As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8.
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
I meant 3 tech labs TvP in general, it's been the standard for the entirety of lotv. Sure marines are better vs chargelots, but more marauders and mines is even better unless theres colossi. Marines are ONLY good vs chargelots and bad vs literally everything else in the toss ground army.
As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8.
As for vs skytoss I specifially talked about how bio was good so idk where you thought I meant mass starports.
marines are better vs immortals, archons and chargelots. you can't compete with a gateway-heavy Classic-style push with only 5 raxx. you get your 6th-8th raxx much faster faster vs chargelots than you do vs robo style.
in the VOD you linked, Zest goes for colossus + late upgrades, not a gateway heavy style with mass chargelots.
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
I meant 3 tech labs TvP in general, it's been the standard for the entirety of lotv. Sure marines are better vs chargelots, but more marauders and mines is even better unless theres colossi. Marines are ONLY good vs chargelots and bad vs literally everything else in the toss ground army.
As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8.
As for vs skytoss I specifially talked about how bio was good so idk where you thought I meant mass starports.
marines are better vs immortals, archons and chargelots. you can't compete with a gateway-heavy Classic-style push with only 5 raxx. you get your 6th-8th raxx much faster faster vs chargelots than you do vs robo style.
in the VOD you linked, Zest goes for colossus + late upgrades, not a gateway heavy style with mass chargelots.
Yeah forgot immortals, but marauders are still better vs archons as they can't reach you anyway and do less splash.
And I guess if we're talking gate style specifically, without colossi mines are that much better, so 5 rax is still good with mines and ghosts. The vod still shows the basic TvP macro style, 5rax 3tech labs on 3 bases, 8 rax after 4th, which is what I was suggesting because I'm assuming we're helping someone that isn't super high level and that won't ONLY play vs mass chargelots.
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
I meant 3 tech labs TvP in general, it's been the standard for the entirety of lotv. Sure marines are better vs chargelots, but more marauders and mines is even better unless theres colossi. Marines are ONLY good vs chargelots and bad vs literally everything else in the toss ground army.
As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8.
As for vs skytoss I specifially talked about how bio was good so idk where you thought I meant mass starports.
marines are better vs immortals, archons and chargelots. you can't compete with a gateway-heavy Classic-style push with only 5 raxx. you get your 6th-8th raxx much faster faster vs chargelots than you do vs robo style.
in the VOD you linked, Zest goes for colossus + late upgrades, not a gateway heavy style with mass chargelots.
Yeah forgot immortals, but marauders are still better vs archons as they can't reach you anyway and do less splash.
And I guess if we're talking gate style specifically, without colossi mines are that much better, so 5 rax is still good with mines and ghosts. The vod still shows the basic TvP macro style, 5rax 3tech labs on 3 bases, 8 rax after 4th, which is what I was suggesting because I'm assuming we're helping someone that isn't super high level and that won't ONLY play vs mass chargelots.
the reason why Taeja delays the 6th-8th raxx until after his 4th is started: he's pumping 2 tanks from 2 factories and getting fast +1 vehicle weapons. it's a special composition for Dreamcatcher because the tanks can hit the 3rd / 4th from behind the ledge. tanks are also strong on Blueshift and Stasis.
Taeja doesn't commit with drops in that game. why? because he doesn't have enough bio to drop and babysit his tanks.
2-factory tank is not the standard. the standard is multi-pronged drop play with liberators. on most maps, typically you would want 8 raxx before starting the 4th cc, even vs robo. see Maru vs Zest in the 2018 S2 GSL finals
On December 16 2018 21:19 ArtyK wrote: Your army against protoss should be a lot of marauders (almost as many as marines), widow mines (very important vs chargelots), 4-5 medivacs and eventually liberators/ghosts. On 3 saturated bases you'd basically be on 5 rax (2 reactors for marines, 3 tech labs for marauders).
I don't agree with this at all
vs chargelots, the first 5 raxx should have 3 reactors, mass marines, and only enough marauders to concuss the front-line of zealots and soak damage from the front-line of zealots. marines are the boys who do the damage, not marauders.
you should also consider 2 vikings vs storm / chargelot to snipe / zone out the warp prism
you don't necessarily need widow mines vs chargelots either. tanks are sometimes a better option, if your natural / main ramp overlooks your third, or if your third choke is easily walled.
by the time you saturate your third, you should have 8 raxx finished. you can support 5 raxx on 2 saturated bases... and you'd be getting the 6th, 7th and 8th raxx faster because you didn't pump 3 marauders non-stop
vs 3-base turtle skytoss (carriers?), you should be buildings ghosts + bio + medivacs, not massing starports. ZeRoX is right, you can't win the air battle on 3 bases. it's better to have a stronger ground army. you should only start massing starports in the supreme lategame (5-6 bases + macro orbitals)
I meant 3 tech labs TvP in general, it's been the standard for the entirety of lotv. Sure marines are better vs chargelots, but more marauders and mines is even better unless theres colossi. Marines are ONLY good vs chargelots and bad vs literally everything else in the toss ground army.
As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8.
As for vs skytoss I specifially talked about how bio was good so idk where you thought I meant mass starports.
marines are better vs immortals, archons and chargelots. you can't compete with a gateway-heavy Classic-style push with only 5 raxx. you get your 6th-8th raxx much faster faster vs chargelots than you do vs robo style.
in the VOD you linked, Zest goes for colossus + late upgrades, not a gateway heavy style with mass chargelots.
Yeah forgot immortals, but marauders are still better vs archons as they can't reach you anyway and do less splash.
And I guess if we're talking gate style specifically, without colossi mines are that much better, so 5 rax is still good with mines and ghosts. The vod still shows the basic TvP macro style, 5rax 3tech labs on 3 bases, 8 rax after 4th, which is what I was suggesting because I'm assuming we're helping someone that isn't super high level and that won't ONLY play vs mass chargelots.
the reason why Taeja delays the 6th-8th raxx until after his 4th is started: he's pumping 2 tanks from 2 factories and getting fast +1 vehicle weapons. it's a special composition for Dreamcatcher because the tanks can hit the 3rd / 4th from behind the ledge. tanks are also strong on Blueshift and Stasis.
2-factory tank is not the standard. on most maps, typically you would want 8 raxx before starting the 4th cc, even vs robo. see Maru vs Zest in the GSL finals
I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself from earlier : "As for the 8 rax when you saturate the 3rd you're wrong, 5 rax also has been the standard in lotv. The rest of the money is on the extra starport(s) / factory, tech (fusion core/ghost academy). Only after the 4th CC is started do you add rax 6-8."
So yes in this case it's an extra factory and tanks, but otherwise it would be a starport with lib range for example, not 8 rax before 4th.
Here's heromarine playing vs gate style on 5 rax with factory reactor mines... + Show Spoiler +
Yes he makes more marines, no he does not add rax, he stays on mine medivac/libs
Yo terrans of TL, what do you do with your reaper when you go for reaper expand in TvZ ? I'm starting to think that you have to choose blindly between two options:
Keep it at home: allows you to be safe against pool first + quick lings that try to delay/cancel the natural CC
Send it to the Z's base: allows you to check for ling floods/bane busts/roach rushes by seeing the nat's saturation/the 3rd's timing
I don't really enjoy playing blindly and relying on the opponent not doing something. I like macro, safe play and would like to continue playing like that. Obviously I could always SCV scout, but that's quite expensive... Anyway, what do you guys do ? How do you handle super early scouting against Z ?
For reference, I'm currently at 4.4k MMR on EU (dia1), and my go-to build in TvZ is the double medivac stim drop (so no helions to follow up after the reaper).
On December 18 2018 18:10 LoneYoShi wrote: Yo terrans of TL, what do you do with your reaper when you go for reaper expand in TvZ ? I'm starting to think that you have to choose blindly between two options:
Keep it at home: allows you to be safe against pool first + quick lings that try to delay/cancel the natural CC
Send it to the Z's base: allows you to check for ling floods/bane busts/roach rushes by seeing the nat's saturation/the 3rd's timing
I don't really enjoy playing blindly and relying on the opponent not doing something. I like macro, safe play and would like to continue playing like that. Obviously I could always SCV scout, but that's quite expensive... Anyway, what do you guys do ? How do you handle super early scouting against Z ?
For reference, I'm currently at 4.4k MMR on EU (dia1), and my go-to build in TvZ is the double medivac stim drop (so no helions to follow up after the reaper).
Unless you're going for a one base build, scv scouting is NOT expensive at your level as your macro will already be impacted early game from other more important mistakes, even if you don't notice. I do the same TvZ build and without scv scouting I would lose way more games vs cheese than I would win macro games from saving ~90 minerals early, it's not even a question.
I rally my CC to their main at 16/23 and scout with that scv, check the natural timing (hatch just above half health when you arrive is hatch first, it varies slightly depending on map size), then how much gas they mined or if they have one at all and go back home. If the hatch is later or not there, I still check if they have gas then keep the scv at their third to comeback a bit later while the reaper stays home. If there is no gas they can't follow up with mass speedlings or bane/roach bust so apart from maaaaaaybe pulling scvs to help the reaper defend your building CC you can feel safe after the one wave of lings.
If there is a gas I personally prefer to build my CC on the high ground because otherwise their potential allin hits harder as you spent ressources trying to protect it. It's obviously not great if they actually don't allin though.
Then the scv you kept at their 3rd goes back in to check the drone count at their natural / if theres a bane nest or roach warren. If the lings killed the scv before that, I send the reaper asap after defending the first wave.
On December 18 2018 18:10 LoneYoShi wrote: Yo terrans of TL, what do you do with your reaper when you go for reaper expand in TvZ ? I'm starting to think that you have to choose blindly between two options:
Keep it at home: allows you to be safe against pool first + quick lings that try to delay/cancel the natural CC
Send it to the Z's base: allows you to check for ling floods/bane busts/roach rushes by seeing the nat's saturation/the 3rd's timing
I don't really enjoy playing blindly and relying on the opponent not doing something. I like macro, safe play and would like to continue playing like that. Obviously I could always SCV scout, but that's quite expensive... Anyway, what do you guys do ? How do you handle super early scouting against Z ?
For reference, I'm currently at 4.4k MMR on EU (dia1), and my go-to build in TvZ is the double medivac stim drop (so no helions to follow up after the reaper).
Unless you're going for a one base build, scv scouting is NOT expensive at your level as your macro will already be impacted early game from other more important mistakes, even if you don't notice. I do the same TvZ build and without scv scouting I would lose way more games vs cheese than I would win macro games from saving ~90 minerals early, it's not even a question.
I rally my CC to their main at 16/23 and scout with that scv, check the natural timing (hatch just above half health when you arrive is hatch first, it varies slightly depending on map size), then how much gas they mined or if they have one at all and go back home. If the hatch is later or not there, I still check if they have gas then keep the scv at their third to comeback a bit later while the reaper stays home. If there is no gas they can't follow up with mass speedlings or bane/roach bust so apart from maaaaaaybe pulling scvs to help the reaper defend your building CC you can feel safe after the one wave of lings.
If there is a gas I personally prefer to build my CC on the high ground because otherwise their potential allin hits harder as you spent ressources trying to protect it. It's obviously not great if they actually don't allin though.
Then the scv you kept at their 3rd goes back in to check the drone count at their natural / if theres a bane nest or roach warren. If the lings killed the scv before that, I send the reaper asap after defending the first wave.
Perhaps I am missing something cause I was inactive for a while, but I remember there being a build section with links for SALT. Some of these were awesome and were very in depth to the point of showing you where to place your buildings and when to scout. Did that go away or am I just incompetent and cannot find them? I see the SALT encoding links on spawning tool, but I liked the ones on TL better cause like I said, it displayed the building overlays. The SALT on Spawning tool always makes my hatchery start too far from the minerals so it's basically useless. It always doesn't have a link that just launches the build for me. I have to create a game with a mod and then import. Much more cumbersome.
Guys, what do you think is the best reaction to pool-hatch-roach warren? First off, how do you scout it? When I see an early hatch I know that there may be an early roach warren, so I prey for zerg didn't make 6 lings to cancel my CC and go to his main with a reaper. Not sure if it's good, since if my CC gets canceled, well, it's bad. OK, let's say, there were 2 lings or no lings at all, and I saw a roach warren. I usually make a cyclone + marines under reactor with a bunker on high ground. If I see no roaches with my reaper, I cancel the cyclone. What next? I know there is no ling speed for zerg, but should I make hellions? If I don't, zerg can just mass drones, in this case the game continues as a standard macro. While I would really like to benefit from this situation somehow. Thanks.
How to play TvZ mech? Also, how the fuck you play vs mass raven turret spam? Tried thors, they are good but too slow to escape magic boxed ravens dropped turrets around them. They seem way cost efficient.
On December 23 2018 19:03 `dunedain wrote: Can someone explain the battlecruiser rush? The build and its intricacies? I keep losing to it, but die every time I try.
Are there any in game or out of game chats I can go to where I can find practice partners? I’m having trouble practicing specific matchups and it’s be really nice to just say “LF Zerg 1v1” or something and get even one taker.
On December 20 2018 23:37 DrunkenSCV wrote: Guys, what do you think is the best reaction to pool-hatch-roach warren? First off, how do you scout it? When I see an early hatch I know that there may be an early roach warren, so I prey for zerg didn't make 6 lings to cancel my CC and go to his main with a reaper. Not sure if it's good, since if my CC gets canceled, well, it's bad. OK, let's say, there were 2 lings or no lings at all, and I saw a roach warren. I usually make a cyclone + marines under reactor with a bunker on high ground. If I see no roaches with my reaper, I cancel the cyclone. What next? I know there is no ling speed for zerg, but should I make hellions? If I don't, zerg can just mass drones, in this case the game continues as a standard macro. While I would really like to benefit from this situation somehow. Thanks.
I might not be the best Terran, still learning it, but I always delay starport vs zerg and go for quick tank. Its usefull vs all zerg can drop at you. Reactor marines and tanks are option as marine and hellion are. First is good vs ling flood and roaches but second is very vulerable to roach pressure. You might consider building CC on high ground. You will lose a litte minerals but it's much safer and zerg will waste early larva for 6 lings.
On December 23 2018 19:03 `dunedain wrote: Can someone explain the battlecruiser rush? The build and its intricacies? I keep losing to it, but die every time I try.
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.
Winter posted a guide and some recommendations on how to deal with it:
This is reaper FE into reactor hellion into Viking then BC from the starport. Winter recommends getting more queens to deal with it, basically. Spores kill drones and make it so that the BC’s can just go somewhere else, so going up to 7-8 queens is much better.
EPT
