EPTThe Return of the Hellbats - Page 2
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kinsky
Germany368 Posts
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Twine
France246 Posts
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote: I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated. can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future? | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote: can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future? by making a blind roach warren (or scouting) | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up. Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient. It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier. | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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dyDrawer
Canada438 Posts
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote: What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up. Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient. It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier. getting a thor or two faster is pretty much the problem, you need techlabs (aka 2 more factories) and the thor build time is not short at all, not even mentioning the (gas)cost | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote: What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up. Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient. It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier. the thing is that roaches are pretty good against anything using 2gas early on, hellbat/hellion + starport tech. The baneling nest variation should be a bo loss against hellbat/banshees anyway. The best thing about hellbat atm is the threat they propose which immediately made scouting relevant and marines are included in every opening once again. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote: What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up. Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient. It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier. assuming a 3CC build I believe this is a win for the Terran though. a) it forces banelings and delays the zergs upgrades with nothing but "map control units" such as helions b) the banelings actually only counter the hellbats, hellions vs banelings is never a worthwhile investment. I propose another build, and perhaps this is something to include in future discussions. Polt recently adopted bis map control build (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-polts-map-control-build) to keep on producing marauders (he does so by adding a 2nd gas when the reactor builds on the rax) with a somewhat delayed 3rd CC. I have adopted it to be a CC first build. Both builds however are extremely strong because a) it looks like a hellbat rush but is actually a 3CC build (in my CC first version the 3rd goes down at 6 min) b) the hellbats usually kill a zerg without banelings or roaches c) vs banelings: marauder hellion without transformation should deal with them handily d) vs roaches: the marauder count almost surpases the roach count e) medivacs are out quickly to circumvent zerg defenses and drop f) this build offers the tech tree to deal with every all in and is very safe vs any kind of early aggression be it baneling bust or roach timings g) upgrades will finish as usual for a 1/1 CS+stim timing Some of the above may only work because i play it with CC first though. All in all, I feel like this build offers 3 entirely different intense pressure builds (hellbats, drop play, marauder hellion stim +1/+1 push) as well as a map control viking whilst being safe against any response with banelings, roaches or mass lings. Also it is economical enough for the zerg to be behind whenever he makes any of the above to counter potential hellbats. There is no upgrade disadvantage and even when you choose not to commit to any pressure, your third can be operational by 9 minutes. It obviously gets hard countered by 2 base muta, but turrets should deal with that as you can have them out by 9 minutes and you will be economically ahead. Any thoughts on this? | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On July 11 2014 22:43 Zealously wrote: Innovation was only good because of hellbats! Nice troll, almoust I bit the bait | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On July 12 2014 04:19 Twine wrote: Thanks for this awesome guide ! I hope you'll make one about TvP aswell since it's a very hard MU for me I have 2 or 3 good 2/3 base openings (with strong pushes) vs toss, problem is still the lategame to me, no matter how far I am behind. And I don't wanna play allins or cheeses. I just don't On July 12 2014 01:22 Morrissey wrote: also if anyones interested here's MKP's hellbat banshee build vs. curious MKP may have a fabulous Marine control, but his banshee-control still sucks. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
On July 12 2014 13:23 dyDrawer wrote: Who are those two faces hanging upside down? Soulkey Jaedong | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Lings get roasted anyway Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones. Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote: What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches. Lings get roasted anyway Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones. Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.) Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base. | ||
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creamyturtle
United States487 Posts
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JanLui
France50 Posts
What is pretty cool is that now all zerg are opening with less greed, getting at least a roach waren. This metagame change is pretty nice : it keeps the zerg honest. But remember that "the threat is stronger that the execution." Why not METAGAMING THE METAGAME ? let me share my hellbat build here. actually it looks like a hellbat build but it is NOT. You will see in the replays the latest hellbats ever (actually not before 10 minutes lol) or even no hellbat at all lol It is a very old school push, guess what.... remember 2012 StimmedProbe 4xThor push thread on tl ? (source : Sir StimmedProbe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/352138-stimmedprobes-postpatch-tvz-build-2-4xthor ) Don't run away, wait a bit. It seems to work pretty effectively nowadays. Today 86% winrate (6/7) in the current metagame on ladder. all zerg are fearing some kind of hellbat push that will never come. caution very tight build 1 rax FE no gas > 1 marine + CC > 2 gas @ 18 depot facto asap + 3rd gas asap !!! (important) wall natural + bunker ... (weakness speedling baneling allin) armory + 2nd factory + techlab / factory factory then build 2nd techlab + reactor on rax build 2 depot supply (2 thors are 12 supply !...) launch +1 armor pump 4thors 12marines depots supply and scvs... Transition @10 minutes 4th gas + 3rd factory >>> 2x hellions rallied + 3rd CC. After a moving your 4 thors, build tanks and hellions (morph them into hellbat once they reached the thors in the zerg base but opponent is likely to rage quit before you can use them ^^) weak vs : blind speedling baneling all-in on 2 bases and about 26 drones. busting my not finished wall at the natural : www.drop.sc/3844181 all replay above EZ wins www.drop.sc/384424 Overgrowth vs 4 queens into 3bases roach +1/+1 speedlings & banes www.drop.sc/384419 Labo Foxtrot 4 queen opening, 200 apm zerg www.drop.sc/384420 Merry go round 4thors vs speedling baneling macro www.drop.sc/384421 Overgrowth vs 3 hatch macro (3rd hatch answer to 1rax FE ? not anymore !) edit WTF seems to work as well in TvP trollollol nvm www.drop.sc/384422 Merry go round 4 thors TvP vs msc expand gates robo : immortals www.drop.sc/384423 Nimbus EC 4thors TvP vs oracle expand ENJOY | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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