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The Return of the Hellbats

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
58 CommentsPost a Reply
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The Return of the Hellbats

Text byTeoita
Graphics byshiroiusagi
July 11th, 2014 13:42 GMT

Introduction: The Return of the Hellbats



With seemingly unbreakable resilience, the diverse hellbat openings we've seen recently have been steamrolling unprepared zergs. After the removal of Transformation Servos on the May 23rd balance patch, Terrans suddenly have more flexibility with their openings than ever, thanks to several new aggressive options. The goal of these openings is to either outright kill the Zerg for playing too greedily or to do enough damage to put yourself ahead economically and opening multiple options to follow up with. Throughout this guide we will be focusing on two different styles: two base and three base options. Pioneering the way are TaeJa, Maru, INnoVation and Flash, all of whom recently have been exploring various hellbat openings.

Two Base Openings


The two base aggression builds covered in this guide are:

  1. A marine-first opening, which focuses on trying to throw off the Zerg early;
  2. A hellion opening, which takes earlier map control and hits with a slightly harder push;
  3. A marine-heavy build, which tries to pick off overlords near the timing attack, and;
  4. A banshee opening which is similar to the hellion opening, but substitutes medivacs for banshees and results in more damage but less sustainability.


All four have strengths and weaknesses, and some are better than others depending on the map. Maps with small choke points between bases, such as Overgrowth, will be better for the more sustainable builds, as it’s very hard to get a good surround on the Terran army or get enough Zerg units in a cluster to burst down the hellbats. Maps like Merry Go Round or Catallena will better suit the banshee build due to its ability to attack in multiple locations and splinter up the Zerg army.

With these two base builds, your technology and infrastructure are slowed down quite a bit, although your economy is strong enough to transition into the mid-game without much difficulty. Therefore, it's necessary to get some damage done, either in killing off some workers and forcing early units, or even taking out their third base. Sometimes, your committed timing attack can end the game outright. If there is an all-in coming, react accordingly by making bunkers at home and widow mines or tanks, and try to keep your economy alive so that you don’t fall far behind.


Reaper First




Basic Build Order:
10 depot
12 rax
12 gas
15 reaper
17 CC
17 reactor on rax
18 depot
19 factory
20 2x marine
22 2nd gas
This is the standard build order for opening up with two command centers. It's a familiar build for most people, but it only requires one reaper for scouting as you are not trying to get any damage done; it simply to sets up the hellbat push later. Don't be tempted to risk the reaper for only a handful of drones, as the information obtained by it will be worth more than killing a drone or two. Make sure to use the reaper effectively, as it is an important tool in knowing whether or not your opponent will be susceptible to this type of build. It's important to know if your opponent is planning any sort of early roach aggression or baneling all-in because hellions and hellbats may not be enough to hold these off.

As with most two base Terran builds, follow the reaper with a second CC, a reactor and a factory. However, the deviation comes at 22 supply with a second gas. This times up perfectly for multiple builds, and each style will determine the type of follow up push that will be available to you. Double medivac production, cloaked banshees, or marine-heavy pushes are all legitimate deviations, and we will detail the latter two below.


Marine Heavy



TaeJa vs Jaedong @ HSC IX Quarter Finals


Marine Heavy Build:
23 2x marine
27 switch fact and rax, start hellion production
27 starport
32 reactor on rax
40 medivac when starport finishes
44 2x marine
46 armory
Switch starport and rax after 1st medivac

[Hits @8:00 with]
6 marines
1 reaper
1 medivac
6 hellions
With this variation, you get more marines and an earlier medivac for the purpose of picking off any out-of-position overlords, potentially supply blocking the Zerg and leaving them unable to produce units to defend the impending attack. Use the reaper to look for overlords on the map while denying overlord scouting with your initial marines and sending the following ones to pick off any overlords your reaper was able to scout. It's definitely worth sending the marines to try and pick off stray overlords because losing them won't significantly hurt your initial push and the potential supply block on the Zerg outweighs losing the marines tenfold.

Once your armory finishes, push into the natural of the Zerg and watch the barbecue. Try to cluster your hellbats into a circle and make sure you micro your medivacs back in case the Zerg focuses them with their queens. Also, make sure to avoid spore crawlers. With good control, you can even pick up individual hellbats into medivacs saving them when they are on low hp, transferring incoming damage to another hellbat. At this point the only purpose the marines serve are to deal a little extra damage; you can keep some of them on the watchtowers or continue to patrol the map with them. You can also choose to wait until 8:30 for another round of medivacs and hellbats to make the push more powerful, but at the cost of your opponent potentially having defenses ready in time.


[image loading]

TaeJa is able to pick off unguarded overlords



Hellion Heavy





Flash vs Life @ Sandisk SHOUTcraft invitational Group A



Hellion Heavy Build:
25 switch fact and rax, start hellion production
25 starport
25 reactor on barracks
34 switch starport and barracks, 2x medivacs
42 armory[/list]

[Hits @8:00 with]
2 marines
1 reaper
2 medivacs
8 hellbats
This opening focuses more heavily on gaining early map control with fast hellions, followed by a stronger push. By cutting marines in favor of hellions, you sacrifice the potential to kill overlords for a stronger 8:00 timing. The opening is standard with the reaper scout, but rather than making six marines you only get two, exclusively to prevent overlord scouting in your base. The spare minerals should go into constant hellion production to deny creep spread, and double medivac production for the push.

Having two medivacs immediately available can allow for drop play as well, or even two-pronged attacks early on. One-on-one, Hellbats are exceptional versus almost any other unit, which makes them exceptional when split up. Don't forget that with Transformation Servos now enabled automatically with the armory, hellions rather than hellbats should be built straight out of the factory during the push and then transformed into hellbats at the rally point. It ensures that your units arrive faster, forcing a higher tempo and allowing smaller intervals between reinforcement waves.


[image loading]

Flash dealing massive damage with hellbat/medivac




Marine First




Basic Build Order:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
15 marine, send to kill overlords
16 depot
16 reaper
19 CC
20 reactor on barracks
21 factory
Rather than getting a reaper first, you can build a marine to try and pick off the initial overlord at the start of the game. This is mainly done on two or three player maps where the Zerg is unacquainted with marine first builds, giving you the chance to throw off your opponent very early. The resulting push is just as strong as the other builds, and can potentially be better since the Zerg might lose overlords and be forced into a sub-optimal position due to the early supply cap.

Send the initial marine immediately out to seek out the first overlords from the Zerg and follow it up with a reaper to scout the Zerg and gain watch tower vision. This is much riskier and less optimized on four player maps due to the randomness involved in spawn patterns, so it is better to use this on a two or three player map. Your knowledge of Zerg scouting habits will be key; if you don't know where the overlord will likely be, the first marine likely won't be very useful.

Hellbat / Medivac



TaeJa vs Jaedong @ DreamHack Summer Semi Finals


Hellbat/Medivac Build:
22 gas
24 switch fact and rax, start double hellion production
24 starport
27 reactor on rax
36 medivac, switch onto reactor when done
39 2x marine, switch the starport onto this reactor
54 Tech lab on rax

[Hits @8:30 with]
3 marines
1 reaper
3 medivacs
8 hellbats
Start with a marine and go look for overlords. Even if you don’t find any, a marine before reaper doesn’t set our build back and is worth making. Get a reaper after the marine for scouting purposes. This build has a much earlier gas than a banshee based build because of the amount of gas it requires to produce double Medivacs compared to the single time Cloak upgrade and single banshee production.

Just like the other medivac based builds, you have the option to either push straight onto creep and try to get immediate damage done or you can split up your army and go for a multi-pronged attack involving a hellbat drop in the main and a smaller force on the Zerg creep. These moves are situational; you might want to do a multi-pronged attack if the Zerg has static defense at the front, or do a full frontal attack if he lack good creep spread and/or a good position between their natural and third.

Use the initial hellions to gain map control, clear watchtowers and to prevent creep spread, patrol the map with your marine, looking for stray overlords, and use the reaper to continue scouting the Zerg. The hellbat builds are somewhat vulnerable to roach/baneling all-ins, so identifying the bust as early as possible is crucial for preparations against it. Prioritize not losing any hellions because any lost before the initial attack will significantly weaken our attack; you can never have too many hellbats for this push. To make these attacks hit faster, manually boost the medivacs out of the starport to the push. Shredding any seconds off of when this attack hits gives us an even further advantage as queen energy won’t be as high and their unit production cycles will be behind.


[image loading]

An unprepared Jaedong gets toasted by hellbats



The Cloak' n' Banshee





Maru vs Soulkey @ Code S Ro8 Season 2



The Cloak’ n’ Banshee Build:
23 2x marine
27 switch factory and barracks
27 reactor on barracks
27 start 2x hellion production
31 starport
32 2nd gas
39 start 2x marine production
41 tech lab on starport
51 banshee, non-stop production
54 cloak
59 armory

[Hits @8:30 with]
11 marines
1 reaper
1 banshee
8 hellbats
A small difference from the medivac opening is that at the start of this game, you get a reactor on the barracks before the factory to start marine production earlier. The end result is very similar, with marines, hellbats and banshees ready to do damage. As with the previous builds, you can congregate your units at the front of the Zerg's base for a big push or use your cloaked banshees to pull queens out of position and give you an opening elsewhere for your hellbats and marines.

What separates this build from the others is it completely cuts medivacs as an option and instead opts for cloaked banshees, giving an unorthodox composition of marine/hellbat/banshee. It sacrifices medivacs in order to get more units out, either to make one concerted push towards the Zerg's third, or to use one group to pull units out of position for the other. This high-damage composition, while raising the potential for damage, loses some of it's efficacy as time goes on and the Zerg unlocks mutalisks.


[image loading]

Maru clashing with Soulkey



Not only can this build do massive damage at the Zerg base, it’s also a very safe opening against a roach/baneling all-in. Continue to make banshees non-stop along with the hellbats and keep applying pressure to the Zerg while establishing your follow-up. An alternative to continuing banshee production is to get a Polt Viking out and clear excess overlords out on the map. This will further supply block the Zerg and generate another timing window to either attack or expand.


Summing Up Two Base Aggression



These builds allow for an easy transition into a third CC followed by two more barracks and double engineering bays or a mech transition with two factories instead. All of these builds are relatively hard to scout because they look like standard Terran openings, and with marines in place to deny overlords, it’s very hard for an opponent to get the correct information about the specific build you are going for. With so much variance in new Terran openings, Zergs will struggle with the proper response the aggression Terrans can now put on.


[image loading]

Dead Zerg




The Three Base Opening



The much more uncommon way to open with hellbats (at the moment) involves opening 3CC. Aside from the third CC, the biggest difference between this and the previous builds is the lack of a second gas. All resources are invested into economy early on, so any starport tech is impossible to afford. Despite this, it is still a very strong push at 9:00 with hellbats and marines. Even without medivac/banshee support, this opening can potentially kill off several queens and even some drones if the zerg is not prepared. Hellions are only slightly delayed, therefore map control can still be acquired from the Terran player.

INnoVation vs Life @ Dragon Invitational Tournament #2 Finals


Triple CC Build:
10 supply
12 rax
12 gas
15 reaper
16 supply
17 reaper
19 CC
20 factory
22 reactor
23 CC
25 switch rax and factory, start double hellion production
29 tech lab on rax
30 supply
34 start marine production
37 start stim
@ ~7:40 start armory
@ ~8:00 2x rax
@ ~8:15 start 2x ebay

[Hits @9:00 with]
5 marines
1 reaper
10 hellbats
This push is not designed to deal heavy damage to the Zerg or kill him outright. It still has the potential to if the Zerg is unprepared, but it is more to just to force them to make units and delay their economy so you can set yours up. Your 1/1 is only slightly delayed compared to the 4M build, and you have the potential to get some damage done that wouldn't be possible in 4M. Even if this doesn't do any damage at all, it’s economical enough that we should still be on even foot with the Zerg player.

While this may not be the norm right now, triple CC hellbat builds will most likely become the key stepping stone in macro build orders for TvZ. The high potential for wrecking damage alongside the booming economy and production makes this type of build quite strong and solid overall.

All in all, these are all effective ways to open as Terran, giving us the option to put on more aggression rather than the passive 3CC into 4M builds or the standard hellion/banshee openings. Whether it's a dedicated two base attack or a macro build with hellbat timings built in, It will force Zerg players to play more cautiously against what could come and will curb the Zerg greed. Simply the mere threat of hellbats now has to linger in the back of the Zerg's mind. This is exactly what we would have hoped for, and hopefully everyone enjoys the new options Terran has.


To finish it all off, we'd like to thank TaeJa, INnoVation, Maru and Flash for inviting us to the Korean BBQ to teach us how to cook Zerg units with hellbats. Happy roasting!



[image loading]

Look at those upgrades!



Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: Jer99
Graphics: shiroiusagi
Editors: SC2John, Teoita, Zeromus, lichter.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
July 11 2014 13:43 GMT
#2
Innovation was only good because of hellbats!
AdministratorBreak the chains
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
July 11 2014 13:48 GMT
#3
Need a light?
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
H0i
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands484 Posts
July 11 2014 13:50 GMT
#4
Commence the roasting!
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-11 13:53:46
July 11 2014 13:52 GMT
#5
I like the cloak 'n' banshee build
TL+ Member
JDfz
Profile Joined December 2012
United Kingdom50 Posts
July 11 2014 13:52 GMT
#6
Awesome guide. Crisp & to the point.
CJGumiho <3
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-11 14:27:47
July 11 2014 14:03 GMT
#7
ironically enough, the games innovation showed the other day in the IEm qualifiers and the ATC did not incorporate hellbats but rather keep the mass helions to gain a micro advantage against slow banelings during his 1/1 11 min timing push


also, with regard to the last build:

I agree that 3 CC builds will start to incorporate hellbats. However a 9 min timing seems counterintuitive. 3 CC builds set up for a extremely strong midgame. The 9 min push neither takes advantage of the micro potential of terran nor the cost efficiency of of upgrades. I think you are much better off conserving those forces.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
July 11 2014 14:44 GMT
#8
On July 11 2014 23:03 Mojito99 wrote:
ironically enough, the games innovation showed the other day in the IEm qualifiers and the ATC did not incorporate hellbats but rather keep the mass helions to gain a micro advantage against slow banelings during his 1/1 11 min timing push


also, with regard to the last build:

I agree that 3 CC builds will start to incorporate hellbats. However a 9 min timing seems counterintuitive. 3 CC builds set up for a extremely strong midgame. The 9 min push neither takes advantage of the micro potential of terran nor the cost efficiency of of upgrades. I think you are much better off conserving those forces.


I'll ask Jer to clarify but I believe that its going to become a feel thing. If you keep the forces at home its a choice and knowing when to attack nor defend with them is important. Also expanding behind an attack is a good strategy so long as your production can rebuild in time to defend.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
johnbongham
Profile Joined April 2014
451 Posts
July 11 2014 14:49 GMT
#9
Yay. A real terran guide with multiple build options.
Noro
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada991 Posts
July 11 2014 15:00 GMT
#10
Great guide! Roasted Drones inc...
Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.
TwiggyWan
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
France329 Posts
July 11 2014 15:12 GMT
#11
I hope this article will find its way on the Terran Strategy Liquipedia portal!

Very good content just as i resumed playing SC2.

Reminds me of odd WoL build featuring 2 reactored factories full hellions attack...
No bad days
Pyloss
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1515 Posts
July 11 2014 15:19 GMT
#12
What are you guys thinking about using the 2 base marine hellbat one vs Protoss? I feel like that could work out too.
Thanks for the builds!
<3 sOs, Parting, Mana, Honor, TaKe, Mcanning<3
Jazzman88
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada2228 Posts
July 11 2014 15:44 GMT
#13
On July 11 2014 23:44 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2014 23:03 Mojito99 wrote:
ironically enough, the games innovation showed the other day in the IEm qualifiers and the ATC did not incorporate hellbats but rather keep the mass helions to gain a micro advantage against slow banelings during his 1/1 11 min timing push


also, with regard to the last build:

I agree that 3 CC builds will start to incorporate hellbats. However a 9 min timing seems counterintuitive. 3 CC builds set up for a extremely strong midgame. The 9 min push neither takes advantage of the micro potential of terran nor the cost efficiency of of upgrades. I think you are much better off conserving those forces.


I'll ask Jer to clarify but I believe that its going to become a feel thing. If you keep the forces at home its a choice and knowing when to attack nor defend with them is important. Also expanding behind an attack is a good strategy so long as your production can rebuild in time to defend.


I've been playing the 3CC Hellbat timing at 9:00 and several variations on it in TvZ, and I would agree with this. The continuous poking that you're doing at the edge of Zerg's creep is really going to tell you whether or not to commit. If you are seeing no Drones at the third (if there is one) or you have seen more than 5 Roaches, there's absolutely no need to attack, as the infrastructure back home is set up perfectly to defend a Roach/Baneling or quick Mutalisk attack, and you can always use extra units for that purpose if you don't waste them on a useless third base by Zerg.

Things that should probably spark the 'do not attack' feeling:

1. Excessive Roach count with no Drones at the third or no third.
2. No third and no more than 2 Queens spreading creep. Why only 4 Queens if no third and no obvious economic edge?
3. No Evo Chambers, late third, and fewer Queens than expected. Gas is going somewhere... quick Mutalisk, maybe?
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
July 11 2014 15:48 GMT
#14
On July 11 2014 22:43 Zealously wrote:
Innovation was only good because of hellbats!

U suck Zealously
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
elmerpogs
Profile Joined August 2011
Philippines441 Posts
July 11 2014 15:52 GMT
#15
InNovation is back!
SKT [img]http://i.imgur.com/1NuGXvx.png[/img] is still the best [img]http://i.imgur.com/MsxcOXX.png[/img]
mikwow
Profile Joined July 2014
1 Post
July 11 2014 16:14 GMT
#16
I'm surprised there is no mention of a good hellbat build off of a CC first into a third CC. My go-to build in TvZ is the standard greedy build of : 14CC, 15 rax, 16 gas, fact, 3rd CC. Instead of stopping at 6 hellions, I usually go up to 8-10 hellions. I build the armory at arround 7:30. I hit the zerg's third with 8-10 hellbats and I can often kill it if he doesn't have a roach warren already. The zerg will rarely see this coming because he thinks you're going to be really passive since you went with one of the greediest build possible.
DeadByDawn
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom476 Posts
July 11 2014 16:20 GMT
#17
Really, I have multiple build-order choices? I play Terran because David Kim picks the one build that I can use Good guide - going to try these against Elite AI before online though! Another great piece by the TL writers.
Morrissey
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
Germany55 Posts
July 11 2014 16:22 GMT
#18
also if anyones interested here's MKP's hellbat banshee build vs. curious

MarineKingPrime forever
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
July 11 2014 17:08 GMT
#19
On July 12 2014 01:14 mikwow wrote:
I'm surprised there is no mention of a good hellbat build off of a CC first into a third CC. My go-to build in TvZ is the standard greedy build of : 14CC, 15 rax, 16 gas, fact, 3rd CC. Instead of stopping at 6 hellions, I usually go up to 8-10 hellions. I build the armory at arround 7:30. I hit the zerg's third with 8-10 hellbats and I can often kill it if he doesn't have a roach warren already. The zerg will rarely see this coming because he thinks you're going to be really passive since you went with one of the greediest build possible.



i played around a CC first opening. Essentially you are floating minerals if you go without a 2nd gas.

I feel like a CC first gains no advantage if all you do is a hellbat timing. I think it could set you up nicely for a +1/+1 10-12 hellbats with 3 rax stim timing and medivacs around 11 min.

I have yet to figure out the best time to take your 2nd gas.
Brutaxilos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2624 Posts
July 11 2014 18:38 GMT
#20
That graphic is gold hahahaha
Jangbi favorite player. Forever~ CJ herO the King of IEM. BOMBERRRRRRRR. Sexy Boy Rogue. soO #1! Oliveira China Represent!
kinsky
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany368 Posts
July 11 2014 18:57 GMT
#21
Thank you very much! Awesome stuff!
Twine
Profile Joined June 2012
France246 Posts
July 11 2014 19:19 GMT
#22
Thanks for this awesome guide ! I hope you'll make one about TvP aswell since it's a very hard MU for me
#1 Bomber fan | Jin Air best KT
fireforce7
Profile Joined June 2010
United States334 Posts
July 11 2014 19:36 GMT
#23
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.
I'm terranfying
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
July 11 2014 20:16 GMT
#24
Drone kebab.
"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
July 11 2014 22:22 GMT
#25
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
July 11 2014 23:23 GMT
#26
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?


by making a blind roach warren (or scouting)
Zest fanboy.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 11 2014 23:45 GMT
#27
On July 12 2014 08:23 sAsImre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote:
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?


by making a blind roach warren (or scouting)


What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up.

Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient.

It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
July 12 2014 00:57 GMT
#28
Why is lichter letting these titles stay
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
dyDrawer
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada438 Posts
July 12 2014 04:23 GMT
#29
Who are those two faces hanging upside down?
Dear, Rain, PartinG, Trap - "Glory to the Firstborn"
Kitaen
Profile Joined June 2011
Austria466 Posts
July 12 2014 04:53 GMT
#30
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 08:23 sAsImre wrote:
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote:
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?


by making a blind roach warren (or scouting)


What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up.

Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient.

It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier.


getting a thor or two faster is pretty much the problem, you need techlabs (aka 2 more factories) and the thor build time is not short at all, not even mentioning the (gas)cost
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-12 10:08:13
July 12 2014 10:07 GMT
#31
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 08:23 sAsImre wrote:
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote:
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?


by making a blind roach warren (or scouting)


What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up.

Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient.

It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier.


the thing is that roaches are pretty good against anything using 2gas early on, hellbat/hellion + starport tech. The baneling nest variation should be a bo loss against hellbat/banshees anyway. The best thing about hellbat atm is the threat they propose which immediately made scouting relevant and marines are included in every opening once again.
Zest fanboy.
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-12 11:14:35
July 12 2014 11:11 GMT
#32
On July 12 2014 08:45 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 08:23 sAsImre wrote:
On July 12 2014 07:22 Mojito99 wrote:
On July 12 2014 04:36 fireforce7 wrote:
I wonder how zerg will adapt to this play...it seems like it's powerful for terran now, but in the near future I could see it getting easily negated.


can you elaborate on how it is easily negated in the future?


by making a blind roach warren (or scouting)


What most Zergs are doing right now is just switching the order of their baneling nest and upgrades. If they don't scout the 3rd CC and/or get a hint that you're going for some kind of a hellbat timing, they have the option to morph in 6-10 banelings when the hellbats show up.

Another way is to just open up with a safety roach warren every game and build ~4 roaches to help push back the hellions and in case of a hellbat timing, although this is not nearly as flexible or cost efficient.

It's still in the process of evolving, but I think 2-base builds, while they are nice as an option, will soon be fairly rare due to Zergs adapting and better understanding the warning signs. 3-base builds are still totally legitimate, though. I would love to see something where people retain all the hellions and switch to thor/hellion/marine and just start getting a thor or two earlier.


assuming a 3CC build I believe this is a win for the Terran though.

a) it forces banelings and delays the zergs upgrades with nothing but "map control units" such as helions
b) the banelings actually only counter the hellbats, hellions vs banelings is never a worthwhile investment.


I propose another build, and perhaps this is something to include in future discussions.

Polt recently adopted bis map control build (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-polts-map-control-build)
to keep on producing marauders (he does so by adding a 2nd gas when the reactor builds on the rax) with a somewhat delayed 3rd CC.

I have adopted it to be a CC first build. Both builds however are extremely strong because

a) it looks like a hellbat rush but is actually a 3CC build (in my CC first version the 3rd goes down at 6 min)
b) the hellbats usually kill a zerg without banelings or roaches
c) vs banelings: marauder hellion without transformation should deal with them handily
d) vs roaches: the marauder count almost surpases the roach count
e) medivacs are out quickly to circumvent zerg defenses and drop
f) this build offers the tech tree to deal with every all in and is very safe vs any kind of early aggression be it baneling bust or roach timings
g) upgrades will finish as usual for a 1/1 CS+stim timing

Some of the above may only work because i play it with CC first though.


All in all, I feel like this build offers 3 entirely different intense pressure builds (hellbats, drop play, marauder hellion stim +1/+1 push) as well as a map control viking whilst being safe against any response with banelings, roaches or mass lings. Also it is economical enough for the zerg to be behind whenever he makes any of the above to counter potential hellbats. There is no upgrade disadvantage and even when you choose not to commit to any pressure, your third can be operational by 9 minutes.

It obviously gets hard countered by 2 base muta, but turrets should deal with that as you can have them out by 9 minutes and you will be economically ahead.

Any thoughts on this?
Rollora
Profile Joined February 2012
2450 Posts
July 12 2014 12:20 GMT
#33
On July 11 2014 22:43 Zealously wrote:
Innovation was only good because of hellbats!

Nice troll, almoust I bit the bait
Rollora
Profile Joined February 2012
2450 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-12 12:33:12
July 12 2014 12:22 GMT
#34
On July 12 2014 04:19 Twine wrote:
Thanks for this awesome guide ! I hope you'll make one about TvP aswell since it's a very hard MU for me

I have 2 or 3 good 2/3 base openings (with strong pushes) vs toss, problem is still the lategame to me, no matter how far I am behind.
And I don't wanna play allins or cheeses. I just don't
On July 12 2014 01:22 Morrissey wrote:
also if anyones interested here's MKP's hellbat banshee build vs. curious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phNiKPekaSM

MKP may have a fabulous Marine control, but his banshee-control still sucks.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
July 12 2014 12:50 GMT
#35
On July 12 2014 13:23 dyDrawer wrote:
Who are those two faces hanging upside down?


Soulkey Jaedong
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
July 12 2014 20:26 GMT
#36
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 12 2014 21:29 GMT
#37
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)


Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
creamyturtle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States487 Posts
July 13 2014 01:48 GMT
#38
Thank you for this! I had been struggling with the exact order of when to drop some of the buildings but this is pretty clear cut. Solid info for Terrans trying to learn.

Terran it up.
JanLui
Profile Joined November 2010
France50 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-13 19:13:00
July 13 2014 18:50 GMT
#39
Great write up, it is very clear and usefull ! Sadly all these build are now less effective imo.

What is pretty cool is that now all zerg are opening with less greed, getting at least a roach waren. This metagame change is pretty nice : it keeps the zerg honest. But remember that "the threat is stronger that the execution."

Why not METAGAMING THE METAGAME ?

let me share my hellbat build here. actually it looks like a hellbat build but it is NOT. You will see in the replays the latest hellbats ever (actually not before 10 minutes lol) or even no hellbat at all lol
It is a very old school push, guess what.... remember 2012 StimmedProbe 4xThor push thread on tl ?
(source : Sir StimmedProbe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/352138-stimmedprobes-postpatch-tvz-build-2-4xthor )

Don't run away, wait a bit.

It seems to work pretty effectively nowadays. Today 86% winrate (6/7) in the current metagame on ladder. all zerg are fearing some kind of hellbat push that will never come. caution very tight build

1 rax FE no gas > 1 marine + CC > 2 gas @ 18 depot
facto asap + 3rd gas asap !!! (important)
wall natural + bunker ... (weakness speedling baneling allin)
armory + 2nd factory + techlab / factory
factory then build 2nd techlab + reactor on rax
build 2 depot supply (2 thors are 12 supply !...)
launch +1 armor pump 4thors 12marines depots supply and scvs...

Transition @10 minutes 4th gas + 3rd factory >>> 2x hellions rallied + 3rd CC.
After a moving your 4 thors, build tanks and hellions (morph them into hellbat once they reached the thors in the zerg base but opponent is likely to rage quit before you can use them ^^)

weak vs : blind speedling baneling all-in on 2 bases and about 26 drones. busting my not finished wall at the natural : www.drop.sc/3844181

all replay above EZ wins
www.drop.sc/384424 Overgrowth vs 4 queens into 3bases roach +1/+1 speedlings & banes
www.drop.sc/384419 Labo Foxtrot 4 queen opening, 200 apm zerg
www.drop.sc/384420 Merry go round 4thors vs speedling baneling macro
www.drop.sc/384421 Overgrowth vs 3 hatch macro (3rd hatch answer to 1rax FE ? not anymore !)

edit WTF seems to work as well in TvP trollollol nvm
www.drop.sc/384422 Merry go round 4 thors TvP vs msc expand gates robo : immortals
www.drop.sc/384423 Nimbus EC 4thors TvP vs oracle expand

ENJOY


Never Die Easy. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/312602/JanLui
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-13 22:27:01
July 13 2014 22:26 GMT
#40
edit: nevermind.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
CutTheEnemy
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada373 Posts
July 13 2014 23:05 GMT
#41
Thanks for all the work on this
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
deathgod6
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States5064 Posts
July 14 2014 07:28 GMT
#42
Is this the counter to OctZerg?
4.0 GPA = A rank 5.0 GPA = Olympic --------- Bisu, Best, Fantasy. i ♥ oov. They can get in my BoxeR anyday.
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
July 14 2014 09:18 GMT
#43
Time to get off the ladder until this has been figured out.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
XiZeL
Profile Joined July 2014
Switzerland92 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-14 09:41:58
July 14 2014 09:39 GMT
#44
looks alot like Day9's analysis of (T)Maru gamplay against (Z)Soulkey By using a hellbat marine (T)PuSh he manages to delay the zergs 4th and layer tech

I dont think Terran needs to be buffed they have just taken more time to figure out how to counter what P and Z have. look at last night RB BG TvT final.
I watch more starcraft than i play it
SeriousLus
Profile Joined July 2012
169 Posts
July 14 2014 11:47 GMT
#45
when hellbats kill roaches i know everything is fubar.. thx Dave
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
July 14 2014 12:16 GMT
#46
On July 14 2014 20:47 SeriousLus wrote:
when hellbats kill roaches i know everything is fubar.. thx Dave


Did you even watch the vods?
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Hot_Ice
Profile Joined January 2013
139 Posts
July 14 2014 13:18 GMT
#47
--- Nuked ---
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
July 15 2014 12:11 GMT
#48
On July 13 2014 06:29 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)


Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base.

Can I still go hatch-first?
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
July 15 2014 12:40 GMT
#49
On July 15 2014 21:11 [F_]aths wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2014 06:29 SC2John wrote:
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)


Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base.

Can I still go hatch-first?


Yes
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
July 15 2014 12:48 GMT
#50
On July 14 2014 18:18 Mahtasooma wrote:
Time to get off the ladder until this has been figured out.


How about you get ON the ladder and try to figure it out.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 15 2014 13:53 GMT
#51
On July 15 2014 21:11 [F_]aths wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2014 06:29 SC2John wrote:
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)


Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base.

Can I still go hatch-first?


Yeah, these hellbat timings don't really affect the game until 8:00-10:00, so everything before that can be pretty much the same. Adding on the roaches is as simple as adding a roach warren with your double evos and getting those 4 roaches with the next 100 gas instead of lair.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
TheGloob
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
97 Posts
July 15 2014 16:47 GMT
#52
this is glorious <3 thank you!
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
July 15 2014 22:20 GMT
#53
On July 15 2014 22:53 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2014 21:11 [F_]aths wrote:
On July 13 2014 06:29 SC2John wrote:
On July 13 2014 05:26 [F_]aths wrote:
What is the best defense for gold league level? I tried lings, spines, roaches.

Lings get roasted anyway

Spine crawlers are neat but I still lose a lawt of drones.

Roaches rock, but later on in the game suck (versus rine/rauder/tank.)


Just open with 4 roaches before lair. This will help you secure your third, push back the hellions, and give you the tech necessary to defend hellbats IF you need it. If he doesn't do a hellbat timing, you just transition into muta/ling/bling with no problems and only 100 gas behind. If he does, then you can just flood roaches and lings, defend the timing, and then counterattack while droning up your 3rd base.

Can I still go hatch-first?


Yeah, these hellbat timings don't really affect the game until 8:00-10:00, so everything before that can be pretty much the same. Adding on the roaches is as simple as adding a roach warren with your double evos and getting those 4 roaches with the next 100 gas instead of lair.

I now did some ladder games on EU (gold league as I mentioned) and go 15-hatch-15-pool and use my first 100 gas for zergling speed. The next gas goes into roaches (however I often overproduce and build about 6 roaches.) When the terran sees them, he normally drives his hellions away and does not attack.

Later on I use my roaches (plus some speedlings and slow banelings) to defend my third.

So far this seems to be successful.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
July 15 2014 22:25 GMT
#54
Going roaches that fast really sacrifices lots of economy; i think the standard way to go roach into third is to get the third hatch before the roach warren.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
ilovezerg
Profile Joined March 2014
4 Posts
July 16 2014 09:36 GMT
#55
There was also good marauder-heavy build by MKP vs hyvva
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
July 16 2014 14:44 GMT
#56
Marauders are pretty expensive though to get in addition to double Hellions + Armory (comparable to double Marine production). Two Marines deal about equal DPS to a Roach as one Marauder (armor values excepted), but more damage to everything else, as well as being able to shoot up to kill Overlords.

They are more resistant to Banelings and Roaches due to their health and unit type though, and Concussive Shells will make it easier for the Hellbats to close the distance to their targets.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
July 19 2014 02:39 GMT
#57
Thanks a lot for the guide, almost a year without playing TvZ, only quitting from the MU and playing TvP on customs, it is time to learn this thing all over again.
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
August 02 2014 04:16 GMT
#58
On July 14 2014 16:28 deathgod6 wrote:
Is this the counter to OctZerg?


No, the counter to OctZerg is a bowling ball with holes too small for his fingers.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Dan26
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Australia239 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-11 13:04:43
August 11 2014 13:01 GMT
#59
On July 12 2014 02:08 Mojito99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2014 01:14 mikwow wrote:
I'm surprised there is no mention of a good hellbat build off of a CC first into a third CC. My go-to build in TvZ is the standard greedy build of : 14CC, 15 rax, 16 gas, fact, 3rd CC. Instead of stopping at 6 hellions, I usually go up to 8-10 hellions. I build the armory at arround 7:30. I hit the zerg's third with 8-10 hellbats and I can often kill it if he doesn't have a roach warren already. The zerg will rarely see this coming because he thinks you're going to be really passive since you went with one of the greediest build possible.



i played around a CC first opening. Essentially you are floating minerals if you go without a 2nd gas.

I feel like a CC first gains no advantage if all you do is a hellbat timing. I think it could set you up nicely for a +1/+1 10-12 hellbats with 3 rax stim timing and medivacs around 11 min.

I have yet to figure out the best time to take your 2nd gas.


*edit* Note I am referencing this build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-innovations-reactor-hellion-3cc/

If you knew the 3OC hellion build, you'd know that the 2nd gas is taken as you research stim on your first rax. Making up to an additional 6 hellions on top of your first 6 doesn't really do that much to the integrity of the build at all. You can still hit a sick 2-2 timing around 14 minutes no problem, thanks to the CC first.

I guess you would add the armory a bit earlier in order to have the hellbat ability, which, in conjunction with your factory making hellions and not making reactors for rax, would put off the standard 3OC hellion build a little bit, but honestly not much at all. I've been practicing Innovations 3OC build against elite AI, and really like the idea of pumping out a heap more hellions for some hellbat aggression.

So he isn't "just doing a hellbat timing", he is simply modifying a small part of a robust economical build, that doesn't hurt it's original goal. Probably just delay the 2-2 timing by 30 secs... And if your 8-10 hellbats on the 3rd did damage, then Zerg is in for a world of hurt when it does come.


Eat like a King, Train like a Champion, Sleep like a Baby
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