Colossus builds have been quite prevalent throughout HotS. Despite this, players like Trap, Parting, Flying and sOs have been going for templar first play with great success. The HotS changes impacted this playstyle greatly thanks to the added defensive capabilities of the mothership core, the power of faster warp prisms, and a cheaper dark shrine.
The main advantage of not rushing colossus tech is that robotics build time is freed up, allowing for an investment in a fast observer network and warp prisms. These two tools are extremely valuable in defending a well timed third base, harassing, and keeping map control. The ability to stress an opponent’s multitasking and force mistakes is very powerful and it’s very rewarding to beat an opponent while forcing and punishing mistake after mistake: gateway-heavy styles suit this kind of play much better than colossi.
This style is considered harder to pull of than colossus openings, but it's more rewarding and, with practice, it can be at least just as strong.
Early Game
As with every macro build, this style opens with a fast expansion to get a strong economy going. There are many different variations on 1gate Fe out there; my favorite variation is:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
18 Core scout, check for a CC on low ground and a reaper. The build doesn’t vary enough to justify an earlier scout.
19/21 Zealot, I generally let it finish to avoid any kind of ebay block. You cancel it if you want to.
23/26 Nexus, mothership core with first 100 gas.
24 Pylon
25 Gas
Warpgate with the next 50 gas.
Stalker as soon as resources allow, move out with it on the map.
Robo as soon as gas allows.
Forge at 5:45, get +1 armor as soon as it’s done.
Sentry after Stalker.
2 extra gates as resources allow.
You should be using your initial probe and stalker to poke around the map and get a read on what your opponent is doing: clearing the xel’naga towers from the reaper with your stalker is particularly useful since it keeps your opponent in the dark.
The things you should be worried about are:
Is he going gasless expand, or did he take a gas?
Is he doing some 1-1-1 harassment opening like a widow mine drop, hellions or banshees, or is he rushing for medivacs?
Did he do a greedy 3CC opening?
Be aware of the timings at which any push might come. As a general rule, if he is including a reasonably fast CC (around 4:30), his push/drop will hit between the 8:00 and 8:30 minute mark. If he decides to delay his CC, he will attack at about 6:00 to 7:00.
As you scout, look for:
Gas vs no gas. If he opens gasless, don’t get any defensive cannons. Be aware that it’s possible to go for 1-1-1 after fast expanding, but you should be able to see this with an obs.
Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line.
Timing on the CC. This is the crucial piece of info. If you don’t see a CC after about the 4:30 mark, get one cannon per mineral line, as this is the biggest tell of a gas opening if you can't get a probe in his base.
Your build changes slightly to adapt to what the Terran is doing. If he goes for 3rax+medivac you should get a sentry as your fourth gateway unit and immediately get two extra gates and tech going: the specific build orders are written in the next section.
If your opponent attempts harassment, play more carefully. Get defensive cannons before the extra gates as well as a stalker instead of a second sentry for some extra DPS. Keep the mothership core in the main grouped with an observer if the cannons are late, and be ready to use a nexus cannon in the main while warping in extra reinforcements. Pull probes away and let the cannon and planetary nexus finish off the dropped widow mines and marines. At this stage you should be extremely careful with your forces. Do not pull your entire army in an attempt to snipe the medivac or clear off the drop unless you know the units dropped are the only ones out on the map. A popular variation on widow mine drops is to delay the CC to get four hellions and go for a runby into the natural, hoping your army will be busy in the main. A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes, which is why you need to play safely.
Well timed reactive cannons
If he kills six or so probes you should be about even, if he kills fewer you are ahead, and if he kills more you are behind.
Mid Game
Once your natural is well saturated, take the gasses there; normally, this is at around the seven minute mark as with most PvT builds. From here, go up to two sentries and then start teching up to charge and templar while making sure to keep the upgrades going. During this time, the Terran will start his mid game pressure as he takes his third. Against a medivac push, follow this build:
Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs.
7:30 Twilight council as +1 armor is halfway done.
8:45 Gates 4 and 5.
Charge and +2 armor when the council completes.
Templar archives as gas allows after starting charge, warp in 2 templar and start storm as soon as it completes.
9:50 Gates 6 and 7 at around.
11 to 12 minutes: Third nexus.
One extra observer for a total of 4.
Assuming you are playing against a medivac timing, rally the warp prism across the map. Warp in four zealots with it and drop them in his main slightly after seeing him move out, when his army is about one third of the way across the map. This move is essential, as it buys time for your storm and +2 armor to complete and for the extra gates to kick in.
In WoL it was impossible to hold a medivac timing if you went for storm, robo, and upgrades at the same time. However, with the added dps of the nexus cannon you can be greedier, getting a (slightly) faster storm and pressuring with the warp prism while still being able to defend thanks to feedback and an archon.
If he tries to commit to his medivac timing while ignoring the zealots in his main, you should defend with chargelot/archon plus the nexus cannon, trying to feedback the medivacs before morphing the archon. If he does this, he’s going to lose addons, scv’s, and reinforcements to your dropped zealots: they are incredibly strong if the Terran doesn’t micro against them (and unless he is Innovation, he can’t micro on two fronts at the same time). Depending on the map layout, it might be easier or harder to get zealots into the mineral line. If you can’t hit it easily you can still go after addons or key buildings like armories and ebays. Taking out the reactor on his starport is particularly strong, but reactors on barracks and SCVs are good targets as well.
Making people panic is fun. The big blue dot on the minimap is a bunch of SCVs.
If instead he is going mech or 3CC, you can be greedy and take your third off three gates before getting your infrastructure up and teching normally. If he is playing greedy, try to match his greed: cut units briefly for production facilities and a second forge instead of making a defensive army that won’t be useful when he isn’t going to push. You still want to get a warp prism out eventually, but you don’t need it as fast. Get observers in position first, increase your templar count, and start immortal production if he goes mech.
Your observer's jobs are the following:
First obs scouts the terran
Second obs scouts for a fast medivac drop in your main while your army defends your natural
Third obs checks for any push at your natural
Fourth obs check for any drops on your natural, and later on for pushes at your third
Optional fifth obs checks for drops to your third and/or pushes at a third key location; this is somewhat map dependent
Robo/forge/twilight builds are extremely versatile, and they have various followups they can go into. The most common ones are:
Dark Templar Drop A popular option is to go for a DT drop off 2 bases: delaying storm and charge in exchange for much more powerful harassment. While this variation can be done against any build, it can be somewhat tricky to hold off a medivac timing. Depending on how well the Terran defends the DT's you can be severely behind. It is, however, a great choice against harassment builds, and was extremely popular before the hellbat nerf when Terrans were rushing for a starport and armory rather than going for medivac pushes.
When behind...
deeteehehehehehehehehe
Here is a recommended build order against a medivac timing:
1Gate expand, make one extra sentry for a total of 3.
6:30 Natural gasses.
Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs, immortal 3x.
7:00 Twilight council.
As soon as the council completes: charge, +1 attack and dark shrine as gas allows, in this order.
8:40 Gates 4 and 5.
9:05 Gates 6 and 7.
Templar archives after defending the medivac timing, at about 11:30.
Take a third behind the harassment once the Terran stops being aggressive, this should be between the 11 and 13 minute mark.
The goal of the D’s is to delay him and punish him for getting caught out of position or for messing up earlier in the game. Going for DTs can allow you to take a normally timed third with a relatively small army. Since DTs are such a big investment, you have to be extremely careful with them. Keep them split up so each DT takes one scan to kill, and be very careful with how many you make. After your first drop of two or so, he will likely save scans and have turrets in position, so only make DTs if you know he is out of position. As usual, the general rule is to go up to six or seven gates before taking a third against bio timings. Against 3CC or mech, take your third earlier. To strengthen your army, mix in some (two-four) immortals after you get the warp prism out.
Storm Drop Rush Similar to the DT drop, this is a build Trap utilized against Supernova's 15CC into 2-rax on Akilon Wastes. The idea behind it is fairly similar to the standard chargelot build: get just enough to hold a straight up push while harassing and killing as many SCVs as possible with a warp prism. As a general rule, it is close to impossible to get storm done together with a robo and upgrades against a medivac push. This build delays the forge, focusing on faster templar tech and a robo. Also note that this build skips detection for a long time, which makes widow mine based builds much scarier.
Standard 1 Gate expand
Initial 250 gas: warpgate, 2 stalkers, MSC
5:20: Second Gate
5:50: Twilight council
6:15 and 6:35: Natural gasses
Next 100 gas: sentry
6:40: Templar archives
7:00: Robo
Storm started, 1 templar as soon as archives finish and gas allows
Off the robo: warp prism before observers
8:00: Forge
Extra gates as normal, play out the game as you would with the standard build.
Immortal/Archon Timing This build was used first by KT Protoss players, and it's the most aggressive variation of two-base robo/twilight. It delays storm in favor of a faster second forge, archons, and immortals to go for a powerful mid-game timing that can easily break any unprepared opponent without being an outright all-in build. It is also very strong against mech on maps with a fairly open space in front of the third such as Planet S and Whirlwind. Jaypower already covered this build here
Defending the Third and Transitioning
Defending your third is a matter of correct positioning, good micro, and good scouting. In general, templar are much stronger defensively than colossi, despite having less potential for straight up attacks (more on this later).
At this point, you should have four observers out on the map keeping watch on the Terran. I like to keep three close to my bases -watching for drops and pushes- while having one out scouting what he’s doing. The things you are looking for are his third CC as well as its timing; additionally, check for more opportunities to sneak zealots/dts in his main and/or third.
As a general rule: 3rax >> CC >> 5rax means light aggression after the medivac push and a more passive Terran until his 2/2 completes. 3rax >> 5rax >> cc means heavy aggression coming your way. 5+rax and no 3rd cc means a likely incoming two-base all-in, with an SCV pain-train. The remaining 3 observers should be moved in key locations to watch your bases and make sure you know where his army is.
Start a second forge when you see him taking a third, get ready for the longer game with colossus/blink tech or go for a timing if you want to finish the game faster.
Transitioning into colossus is fairly game dependent. If your opponent is being very aggressive, you'll want to transition more slowly. Get a good gateway count up first (8-10) and making sure you have good drop defense ready with 1-2 cannons and a templar in position. Going double robo is risky against a very aggressive opponent and many Korean pros prefer sticking to a single robo for a while. On the other hand, you can go double robo before extra gates if he’s playing very passively, your harassment did lots of damage, you are ahead because you killed many of his medivacs, or you've successfully defended an aggressive frontal push.
At this point it’s vital to buy as much time as possible for your econ and second tech to kick in: remain active with your harassment. It's important to replace the warp prism if you lost it earlier on. You can start mixing in storm drops as well, which are devastating against an unprepared or slow opponent. Get pylons on the map, especially near his third and fourth, and warp in zealots from there. Your robo time isn’t free anymore as you switch to colossus. Once you move to colossus, you can’t afford to remake warp prisms as easily, especially off a single robo. If you are having trouble getting probes out because his units keep sniping them, you can poke out a bit on the map with your main army.
Free map hacks and constant harassment are kind of nice.
As you get close to maxing out you also want to tech to blink while trading away a few zealots for more gas intensive units like colossi, archons, extra templars spread all over the map, and a group of blink stalkers: keep up the runbys and harassment!
A second possibility is to not go for colossus for a while and stick to pure gateway units for longer, going up to eleven-twelve gates. This is harder to pull off and much more micro intensive, but if you are either ahead from the early/midgame or he’s still two-basing you, it can be a strong option. If you want to finish the game faster, try to use your warp prism to draw him out of position while going for a strong three-base, mass warpgate attack before he can get enough ghosts or hellbats to stop your templar army. With this style you can play more aggressively, harass for longer and deny the Terran’s fourth while taking your own; but do note, your maxed army will be weaker than with a colossus switch. Eventually you are forced into having both area of effect units: get colossus tech after taking your fourth at the latest.
Not pictured: the zealots killing the main and third mineral lines. That'll teach you not to suicide medivacs.
A final possible transition- while still very unexplored- is skipping colossus entirely and going for tempests on three bases. You should be using the tempests to siege and zone out Terran units while the high templar protect them. This style is very new and not nearly close to figured out so I won’t talk about it in depth, but it might be worth playing around with it on some maps. The best maps for tempest are those where it's easy split the map and it's difficult for opponents to circumvent the tempets. These maps include Daybreak, Newkirk Precinct, Belshir Vestige, and Gwangalli Beach.
FAQs
Is this style viable on every map? Yes it is.
I am in league x, am I ready to do this build or is it too hard for me? Yeah go for it. It takes practice but it’s really fun, so why not? The worst case scenario is to grab a practice partner or play unranked. If you play this style enough you will even find it easier than colossus builds. If you aren't confident in your multitasking, try cutting out the warp prism harassment at first.
He did a weird push before medivacs and killed me because I was too greedy. How can I hold it? You should be able to hold most pushes thanks to the mothership core and careful scouting. To make sure you see any kind of push coming before your observer crosses the map and scouts him, keep the initial stalker in front of his natural and watch the minimap carefully. This isn’t as important as it was in WoL, but it’s very useful regardless. Cut tech and chrono out units the instant you see him moving out.
Why a single forge and not double forge? Two-base double forge together with templar play isn't very popular because of a glaring issue with it: there is a timing when you want to get 3/3 and a bunch of templar up with it but the gas is never enough, so what usually happens is the 3/3 gets delayed. If you are going to delay 3/3 a bit then you might as well go for the single forge and maximize the number of units you can get.
Additionally, you can get the single forge extremely quickly without being punished, which already produces fast upgrades in addition to providing early defense in the form of cannons.
Is it possible to play aggressively with this build? Are there any timings to hit? If you try to push across the map with a chargelot/templar army and meet him halfway through the map, your zealots will get kited while the templar are left behind and unable to land any storms. On the other hand, if he is attacking into you he will run straight toward the templar, exposing himself to storm (and making you feel fucking awesome when you land them). It’s also easier to land storms when your opponent is bunched up and backed in a corner, for example, at his natural expansion.
Keeping this in mind, while it is possible to play aggressively with this army composition, it’s a lot easier to defend and harass with it, especially because the Terran can’t really micro on two fronts effectively, thus making your chargelots deadly. With a colossus army you might be able to a-move across the map and win, but with a gateway army you need more careful positioning and army movement or you risk missing key storms or losing zealots for nothing. For example, in one of the linked games Trap loses against Supernova because he wastes 3-4 storms trying to break a third that wasn’t even started yet, and as a result he doesn’t have enough to defend Supernova’s counter attack despite having +3 armor and a superior economy.
That said, the warp prisms really help with keeping the Terran back, so it’s possible to push across the map once storm and a key upgrade (like +2 or +3 armor) is done, especially if you are ahead after defending a timing or harassing him. In other words, do not engage mid map: either play defensively or push when you are sure he is forced to stay in his base.
What do I do against mech? This kind of opening is arguably superior vs mech compared to colossus builds. You have more map control, harassment tools, a fast third, and access to immortals early on, all of which are very strong in that spot. Obviously, you need to add immortals to your composition to take care of the tanks. Double robo immortal after securing the third is a strong transition.
What do I do if he’s doing a 2base allin with thor/banshee or tank/banshee? Against that kind of all-in you can easily get storm up in time, so go for it asap while getting your immortal count up. A good sample VOD of such a hold (even though it’s a WoL game) is Hero vs Supernova on Atlantis Spaceship.
Don't hellbats counter this? While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
On August 19 2013 08:51 xDnDx wrote: There's a similar guide on 2 base templar that was written in WoL. Fairly similar timings, just not as in depth XD I found it helpful at least
On August 19 2013 08:51 xDnDx wrote: There's a similar guide on 2 base templar that was written in WoL. Fairly similar timings, just not as in depth XD I found it helpful at least
You bold the Bro in the Toss, Teoita! Protoss on TL have always been spoiled by contributors like you and Monk (and Alej and RSVP and KCDC and others going back into WOL). Nice work, mate. You must have especially enjoyed this given your love of Templar tech and stormuuuuuu! :D
Anyway, thank you. I'm going to learn this and Jaypower's Robo/Immo variation for some fun times in my PvT.
Thank you so much. I've been improvising a build similar to this and it's very nice to have all the reasoning explained. Especially the scouting information. WoL I felt it was easy to know what a terran would do from very little info in the opening but nowadays I've been like, derp, I guess I should build units.
I also love the DT and storm drop transitions. Randomly I'll just go one of those routes but never have any understanding on whether I'm doing it in a safe way or if I'm just lucky.
You're a beautiful human being (or sentient robot).
I die a little inside every time I see these PvT guides. Teach them how to deal with muta switches and the leave severely under-powered Terran race alone T.T;
How would you deal with drops with this comp. Feel like if T decides to drop everywhere and abuse lack of ranged units and slow zealots (before charge), P will just take too much damage. Cannons and HT are nice but they're both ver immobile compared to something like Stalkers of Phoenix.
On August 19 2013 10:25 Joedaddy wrote: I die a little inside every time I see these PvT guides. Teach them how to deal with muta switches and the leave severely under-powered Terran race alone T.T;
Why do we have to buy tickets to view the VODs? Didn't Blizzard have an agreement with GOMTV and OGN to provide WCS stuff for free? And the prices are ridiculous... 20 USD for a finished season. Maybe for a season pass, but just for a completed season's VODs is pretty bullshit.
I play this style for most of my PvTs. Hellbats are incredibly scary though, I'm very happy Terrans stopped building them once they got nerfed. The nerf basically made it viable again, which I'm happy about. I still am very scared of anyone who knows how to get hellbats at all though.
On August 19 2013 16:06 b_unnies wrote: it's a waste to get robos out early. much better to get double forge and faster too instead of such an early robo
Observers are everything. This build is a million times safer and more flexible with a robo. What if your opponent goes mech? You're screwed without a robo. What if he does a weird ghost cloak build? Screwed. What if there's banshees? What if he drops everywhere? You'll never react to every drop in time unless you have observers placed in key locations.
The 1 gate expand robo isn't specific to this build, it's just the way you open in PvT.
On August 19 2013 08:36 TL Strategy wrote:Is this style viable on every map? Yes it is.
There are some maps where you just can not prevent drops from happening like crazy, for example star station. If you avoid the obvious drop spot (high ground near third) you will always get in and you can even win the game with the frist medivac timing, because the protoss just has no units beside the MSC and some zealots...
Btw: If you let your observers that are positioned to detect incoming drops (i.e. on the sides of the map) patrol a small area you can detect even a wider area. The area the obs patrols has of course to be small enough not to miss a passing medivac (like 4-5 fields on the grid)
This is great. I remember in WoL I used to love early templar plays because the majority of Terrans I came across didn't know how to handle it very well having automatically assumed colossi first, sometimes even faking out with a robo forcing a bunch of vikings. And then it became a question of whether my opponent could get enough ghosts fast enough and then my micro vs theirs. But I never had a proper build for it I'd just wing the whole thing and hope.
This is a great style, but be careful that if the Terran knows how to scout it and goes for ghosts and has good EMP micro, you better have your transition into colossi ready. Unless you're a pro at splitting your templars and/or flanking
when will blizzard ever learn storm is stupid op broken in tvp? i've seen and experience too many stupid noob toss come back from 50 supplies down, 2 bases down against terran with few ok hits of storm while terran can never do the same against toss even if they land 20 perfect emps. seen this happening to gold, plat, dia leagues million times and seen this happened on pro leagues too. all they ever do is abuse storms as it's a lot easier for toss to land good storm hits than terran landing good emps. and big difference is storm can kill tens of tens units easy while emps can only take out energy shield which only worth half of their total hp. plz blizzard. nerf storm. storm shouldn't take out more than half of terran units hp. even then, it's hardly fair because storm has bigger radius and toss don't need to worry about getting slaughter by zealot charge and collosus beams like ghosts do. most case, ghost can't even get into range to emp templars before they die coz of collosus and zealots. landing emp on zealots are meaningless as we all know. this is just so stupid. in casual game, toss wins 100% unless toss player is total idiot. same goes for pro league too. toss wins tvp most of time in late games. i've seen flash getting his butt kicked by parting when he was 2 base up, 40 supplies lead and all parting did was storm his way through. so many similar games. tvp is just broken and that's why there are most numbers of toss on higher brackets now. they kill all terran so easy. unless terran plays 3x better than toss, they can never win. so much for balance. tvp is been broken ever since wol and it hasn't been fixed one bit. sick of toss and their storms. it's so broken.
On August 19 2013 20:13 shin777 wrote: when will blizzard ever learn storm is stupid op broken in tvp? i've seen and experience too many stupid noob toss come back from 50 supplies down, 2 bases down against terran with few ok hits of storm while terran can never do the same against toss even if they land 20 perfect emps. seen this happening to gold, plat, dia leagues million times and seen this happened on pro leagues too. all they ever do is abuse storms as it's a lot easier for toss to land good storm hits than terran landing good emps. and big difference is storm can kill tens of tens units easy while emps can only take out energy shield which only worth half of their total hp. plz blizzard. nerf storm. storm shouldn't take out more than half of terran units hp. even then, it's hardly fair because storm has bigger radius and toss don't need to worry about getting slaughter by zealot charge and collosus beams like ghosts do. most case, ghost can't even get into range to emp templars before they die coz of collosus and zealots. landing emp on zealots are meaningless as we all know. this is just so stupid. in casual game, toss wins 100% unless toss player is total idiot. same goes for pro league too. toss wins tvp most of time in late games. i've seen flash getting his butt kicked by parting when he was 2 base up, 40 supplies lead and all parting did was storm his way through. so many similar games. tvp is just broken and that's why there are most numbers of toss on higher brackets now. they kill all terran so easy. unless terran plays 3x better than toss, they can never win. so much for balance. tvp is been broken ever since wol and it hasn't been fixed one bit. sick of toss and their storms. it's so broken.
On August 19 2013 20:12 Sipario wrote: 1 question : is this a Teo's original bo or an analysis on progamer's matches ?
I think its a bit of both. Teo has been doing templar openings for a long time now and a lot of experience has gone into the guide for timings, scouting etc. The build and many reactions are based off of Korean pros and that's why vods are provided.
On August 19 2013 20:12 Sipario wrote: 1 question : is this a Teo's original bo or an analysis on progamer's matches ?
I think its a bit of both. Teo has been doing templar openings for a long time now and a lot of experience has gone into the guide for timings, scouting etc. The build and many reactions are based off of Korean pros and that's why vods are provided.
Yeah pretty much. The msc fe i use gets the zealot (unusual in pro matches) because for whatever reason people keep being stupid and trying to eng bay block me; the midgame builds are all taken from progamers but they are also the same builds i use.
It's a really fun strategy. I was already using JayPower's guide and I have a pretty good ratio against terran at the moment(75%). This is platinum though and terrans seem to not really like ghosts at this level. :|
This strategy is awesome as a Dia terran player I havn't seen it used enough. Everytime I do it is very difficult to defend or attack because of the utility of templars GREAT write up almost makes me want to switch to toss
It generally changes depending on how aggressive the terran is playing. Generally, 2 sentries, 4-8 templar (i keep 4 in my main army and the remaining as defense in my bases) and 1-3 archons (only morph them if absolutely necessary to defend a push/recyle templar after storming). Add immortals if necessary (ie, mech, dt drop build, pre medivac timing, zest timing) Very few stalkers and mass zealots as a mineral dump.
As i pointed out in the guide, you kind of change that from game to game.
Alright thank you, awesome guide btw! Always been a colossus stalker guy and I've never been arsed to learn how to play templar properly but this certainly helps!
hmm, just now, in NSL, a big chinese online tournament, in a game between Loup and Pigeon， the toss player Pigeon played the two-base high templar build exactly as this guide said …
didnt expect Chinese pro-level player reads TL that much…
I've been doing the DT drop variation build for a while... I usually wait till the terran is halfway to my base and then drop the DTs. If he tries to kill me I warp in defensive DTs, if he scans in my natural ignoring his bases I just kill all of his workers and come out ahead even if he destroys my nexus.
I guess the +1 weapons first is to oneshot scvs with +1 armor? Otherwise I find it better to go +1 armor straight and then hit later on with a strong +3 armor timing. Especially if you are able to snipe the engineering bay researching weapon upgrades it's something ridiculous how your zealots won't ever die.
How do I play against builds that get a 3rd CC quickly but still push at around 10-11 minutes? My gates finish too late to get up enough army and I just die if I get a 3rd before adding gate 4-7.
" they are incredibly strong if the Terran doesn’t micro against them (and unless he is Innovation, he can’t micro on two fronts at the same time). "
And this is basically the problem with Terran for everyone but the top Koreans. It feels incredibly frustrating and unfair to play Terran when you are not a top KR Gmasters Terran because the level of execution required to win is insanely demanding, but it is pretty balanced for those top 5-10 players. I guess we have to live with that to ensure a good esport, but that is basically why you don't see any foreign terran ever winning shit.
This guide is as solid as it comes and this is by far the scariest style of PvT to play against. It does not die to anything really early, has the option to do the scariest and hardest to defend/figure out 2 base timing, and it sets up a super strong lategame even faster than if going collosus. Also with storm and fast upgraded chargelots/archon lets you come back from so many situations.
On August 19 2013 12:30 toadahlmn wrote: How would you deal with drops with this comp. Feel like if T decides to drop everywhere and abuse lack of ranged units and slow zealots (before charge), P will just take too much damage. Cannons and HT are nice but they're both ver immobile compared to something like Stalkers of Phoenix.
It's actually easier to defend from drop going charge/ht than colossi/stalker. Consider the cost of 6 stalker in your main to 2-shot medivacs: it 's pretty high(750/300) and you'll have a later third and a lower gate count. At the same time your colossi must be in the natural to defend from the push at the front. Going ht you can defend keeping 1 ht in main and having gates ready to warp 6+ zealots where the drop is going. And your army is way more mobile, so that you can take a faster 3rd.
but I have this problem where my opponent gets a bunch of turrets in good locations, making it very hard to drop and apply pressure. I kinda feel like I'm a bit behind because of that, I just have a single forge and just have a bunch of gateway units with some extra high templars. Any ideas on how to keep applying pressure?
First thought:Nooooooouuu! Hate storms. HATE HATE HATE. Now even more micro positioning of ghosts, sniping/emping before feedback/stroms hit, rest of the army...splitting, stimming, move medivacs back, if colossi position vikings, macro up... (yes, this is is terran whining/terran tears)
But since I play random, and this build can be pulled of every league (I love that this just says its an easy build and if I lose as terran i can call the other one a noob in my rage... although he obviously "outplayed" me if he wins), It also means I finally have another cool BO as toss (this is protoss happyness, and the joy of bringing tears to terrans)
Really well done and covers all of the necessary transitions very nicely.
Terran players facing this style need to be aware that they should not attempt to simply kill the Protoss with the initial Medivac harass. It will be a multitasking battle where you fend off the Prism, try to delay his third without losing everything to Storm/Chargelot (be sure to babysit that army), and try to head into a normal lategame with Ghosts/Vikings to counter his tech transitions.
As Terran, I feel that a necessity against this style is to try and snipe down some of the Observers that the Protoss is using to watch your movements and drops. Templar styles with full map vision are like the Great Wall of China - there's absolutely no way to break through all the Storm coverage before you hit a critical mass of Ghosts if the Protoss plays correctly. Getting a later Hellbat transition once gases 5 and 6 are up is nice, but don't rely on it too much to save you because it comes later than pre-nerf due to Blue Flame necessity.
Opening HT always seemed incredibly risky to me. Instead of having the constant damage of 1 or 2 colossus, you're relying on a couple of storms to defend against aggressive tier 3 terran timings. Colossus just seems safer.
Well written guide though, obviously a lot of work gone into it
On August 19 2013 12:30 toadahlmn wrote: How would you deal with drops with this comp. Feel like if T decides to drop everywhere and abuse lack of ranged units and slow zealots (before charge), P will just take too much damage. Cannons and HT are nice but they're both ver immobile compared to something like Stalkers of Phoenix.
It's actually easier to defend from drop going charge/ht than colossi/stalker. Consider the cost of 6 stalker in your main to 2-shot medivacs: it 's pretty high(750/300) and you'll have a later third and a lower gate count. At the same time your colossi must be in the natural to defend from the push at the front. Going ht you can defend keeping 1 ht in main and having gates ready to warp 6+ zealots where the drop is going. And your army is way more mobile, so that you can take a faster 3rd.
I means sure Zealot Archon/HT is cheaper but especially to the lower league players, keeping one HT in your main only for feedback requires high minimap watching/understanding how big terran's army is. I find zealot archon more spread out and less mobile because of drops. A Doomdrop around 13:00 could just push protoss to their limits. I like to do 2-4 pronged attacks and zealot archon really unmobile and you need to spread them out. Hard for Bronze-Gold to follow this concept, and it's still hard to stop drops in masters. I've rememebrred MC spexifically opening Stargate because of Drops, also why lots of Chinese players opening collusus phoenix; YOU NEED ULTRA FAST FEEDBACK reaction to stop drops with boost. Observers only help so much.
The threat is often stronger then the actual action.
Sounds like someone actually noticed what the two most imba units in the Protoss lineup are: Zealots and High Templar. Trust me, us Terrans have know that a mass chargelot + high templar composition is almost unbeatable even back in WoL. What makes this particularly viable now in HoTS is the MSC, as well as the brutal harassment options and tech transitions available to Protoss.
TvP in itself admittedly isn't that imbalanced, however just these these units - zealots and high templar - tip the scale massively in Protoss favour. TvP was actually in a great place prior to the Hellbat nerf, I wonder if Blizzard are going to rethink the hellbats in TvP in particular.
On August 20 2013 08:20 Lock0n wrote: Sounds like someone actually noticed what the two most imba units in the Protoss lineup are: Zealots and High Templar. Trust me, us Terrans have know that a mass chargelot + high templar composition is almost unbeatable even back in WoL. What makes this particularly viable now in HoTS is the MSC, as well as the brutal harassment options and tech transitions available to Protoss.
TvP in itself admittedly isn't that imbalanced, however just these these units - zealots and high templar - tip the scale massively in Protoss favour. TvP was actually in a great place prior to the Hellbat nerf, I wonder if Blizzard are going to rethink the hellbats in TvP in particular.
I am pretty sure the high templar was already in brood war, a game that is considered extremely balanced. And I can recommend: splitting, emping,scanning ahead of the army to pre-split just like vs zerg with mass banelings or in th WoL days where even skill-less players used the infestor
I've been opening similar but I get the forge right after gas, instead of Robo. That way I can get a cannon in each mineral line to defend against mines. Then get a couple of gates and a second forge + twilight.
Really nice guide, tried it yesterday (~ 1100 dia) really strong build. Terran didn't know what to do with the aggression and early storms completely caught his stimtiming push offguard. He then maxed out on MMMG and found himself unable to build vikings at 200 supply against the double robo production! Really awesome build, it makes pvt fun again (I hate collosus-build into passive play for 20mins..)
I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
On August 20 2013 15:41 Sturehof wrote: I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
I can assure you that if you're horribad, ladder will make you meet other horribad players (perhaps me!?). And then, just build marauders and research stim. But by your reasoning, marine marauder medivac will probably be nerfed by next year, so don't worry.
On August 20 2013 15:41 Sturehof wrote: I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
I can assure you that if you're horribad, ladder will make you meet other horribad players (perhaps me!?). And then, just build marauders and research stim. But by your reasoning, marine marauder medivac will probably be nerfed by next year, so don't worry.
If MMM get's nerfed instead, then I will die even harder? I guess I should worry then? Hahaha? I am 7 times master so I am not awful I guess? Or ? One mans missery, another one's joy!
On August 20 2013 15:41 Sturehof wrote: I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
I can assure you that if you're horribad, ladder will make you meet other horribad players (perhaps me!?). And then, just build marauders and research stim. But by your reasoning, marine marauder medivac will probably be nerfed by next year, so don't worry.
If MMM get's nerfed instead, then I will die even harder? I guess I should worry then? Hahaha? I am 7 times master so I am not awful I guess? Or ? One mans missery, another one's joy!
Is 7 times master not enough to make ghosts earlier in the game? Since it pretty much hardcounters this build.
1) You can still micro against ghosts. They mean you have to transition into colossus (or tempest, but as i wrote none quite knows how that one works yet) but ht builds are by no means hard countered by ghosts.
2) Please stop with the shitposting.
3) Balance doesn't affect master level players. People in master, including myself, suck too horribly at the game for that to be relevant.
On August 20 2013 17:55 Teoita wrote: 3) Balance doesn't affect master level players. People in master, including myself, suck too horribly at the game for that to be relevant.
This is what I keep reading, but does it only seem a problem to me, that balancing the game on the korean gm ladder (or even higher) has led to a game, where non-korean terrans cannot really compete with korean players, while we see some non korean zerg (Scarlett, Stephano...) or protoss (Nani, Grubby) having some success against them? I mean yeah we've all seen a foreigner terran to win against a korean guy, but how far did he make it?
Or is it just me and it only FEELS like foreigner terrans are struggling harder than foreigner toss/zerg.
And considering ladder: As a player who went from bronze up to masters, first with terran, now the same again with random, i have seen many things: Of course the game has to be balanced on the highest skill-level, but I would wish that this also affects lower skill levels the same ammount. It just doesn't FEEL fair/balanced, that on lower leagues, some races are imba in terms of they have strats much easier to pull of for a win then others or to put it in other words: doesn't feel to satisfying getting defeated by a overall clearly worse player ("noob") just because he succeeds with his 30-50 APM allin build (of course the losing player must have made one big mistake so he loses, I'd rather prefer losing in sc2 is because of a sum of minor mistakes -> it is in GSL & Co (well not even there all the time) but in brood war this seemed more the case, why can't that transfer to SC2
nice guide Teo, just what i need going back to SC2 I have just one question, will you not add some of your own replays? It was very helpful at WoL version of this guide.
I posted some in the protoss help me thread a while ago, with some digging you should find them.
We almost never include personal replays in TL strat articles because the level of play is not even remotely comparable to that in the Vods. I looked for good pro level replays while doing this but i didn't find anything
On August 20 2013 19:34 Teoita wrote: You are not aware of how dt's (for example) fucntion in bw are you?
Anyway, this thread isn't the place for those discussions, so again, stop with the bad posting please.
well I did play BW a lot, so I don't know what you're refering to. AFAIR in BW you couldn't warp a DT into the face of the oponent, and that is, if a lower league player doesn't scout perfectly and/or sees the warpin it hits harder in sc2, not saying toss is imba, just there are tricks that were cheesy before and now they got even simpler ;-) But yeah, I don't want to discuss this, just pointed something out. As said thx for the guide, but that's no reason to talk from a high hourse, I mean saying others posts are bad just because it isn't your opinion...
On August 20 2013 19:52 Teoita wrote: I posted some in the protoss help me thread a while ago, with some digging you should find them.
We almost never include personal replays in TL strat articles because the level of play is not even remotely comparable to that in the Vods. I looked for good pro level replays while doing this but i didn't find anything
Finally found them among your many posts in the help me thread, you really post a lot there Thanks a lot
On August 20 2013 15:41 Sturehof wrote: I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
Blue Flame Hellbat/Marauder/Medivac, EMP, and kite at the front. At the same time, drop a few blue flame Hellbats in the main mineral line.
On August 20 2013 19:52 Teoita wrote: I posted some in the protoss help me thread a while ago, with some digging you should find them.
We almost never include personal replays in TL strat articles because the level of play is not even remotely comparable to that in the Vods. I looked for good pro level replays while doing this but i didn't find anything
I know, right? It's so hard to find accessible replays of the absolute highest-level execution for any strategy. I know players like to keep their patterns and style as inaccessible to opponents as possible, but I'd love to follow and rewind through Flash's POV instead of just listening to Artosis try to explain what's going on.
Nonetheless, a great list of stuff to watch here. I'm sure some Diamond or lower players could even find something useful in your replays, Teoita.
What I REALLY need is a guide on how to improve ones reading skills. I kept glancing at this guide in TL main page thinking to read it later since I really need to learn how to deal with storms in TvP. "Storms Overwhelming", indeed.
While still an interesting read, this was not the terran guide I expected.
I have been playing against this build lately (Terran here) and I can tell you I hate it... but if I see this opening coming... I can get a 4th base pretty quickly and get enough ghosts to take out the HT late game.
On August 20 2013 15:41 Sturehof wrote: I am seeing this all the time on ladder now as Terran. All the Tosses playing it has like 70% win chance. It will probably be patched in 6 months - 1 year or so (not sure because probably GSL terrans can deal with it, and then it will be considered as fine lol). But since I can not get patched to 500 apm vs mass zealots my normal Terran play has probably taken to many hits and found something else to do by then. Great guide though, you deleted atleast me from ladder, I surrender.
TL going downhill with allowing balance whines in any kind of thread. the balance whining by terran especially makes me want to fucking puke just quit it already. Have some shame
I love how TL releases a top-notch quality guide on how to play absolutely textbook standard TvZ with 4M style that requires skill, APM, and micro and then days later, the best that can be done to help the state of PvT revolves around a 2 base allin build thats amove friendly as long as you can press 'T'.
it looks like naniwa pull a vary similar build vs innovation on newkirk precint today but he went up to 8 gates(i think). Anybody know the reason why u add 7-8 gates instead of expanding to 3rd with 6 gates or so? 7-8 gates seem a bit all-inish.
On August 24 2013 07:57 Nightsz wrote: I love how TL releases a top-notch quality guide on how to play absolutely textbook standard TvZ with 4M style that requires skill, APM, and micro and then days later, the best that can be done to help the state of PvT revolves around a 2 base allin build thats amove friendly as long as you can press 'T'.
User was temp banned for this post.
That post may be the funniest in this entire thread.
On August 24 2013 07:57 Nightsz wrote: I love how TL releases a top-notch quality guide on how to play absolutely textbook standard TvZ with 4M style that requires skill, APM, and micro and then days later, the best that can be done to help the state of PvT revolves around a 2 base allin build thats amove friendly as long as you can press 'T'.
User was temp banned for this post.
I concur except for 1 thing, this build is not just a 2 base all in, once storm is done then Protoss already have the game won in any type of long macro game.
On August 24 2013 14:28 Rickyvalle21 wrote: it looks like naniwa pull a vary similar build vs innovation on newkirk precint today but he went up to 8 gates(i think). Anybody know the reason why u add 7-8 gates instead of expanding to 3rd with 6 gates or so? 7-8 gates seem a bit all-inish.
Colossus builds tend to stay on 6gates because they also have a robo pumping colossi; if you are only making cheaper zealot/templar and upgrading off a single forge, you can easily afford to have 7/8 gates and still make probes, upgrade and take a third. Every build in the OP gets 7 gates before taking a third too.
This build is disgusting. Played against a 2 base zealot archon variant. Protoss punched through the five bunkers between my natural and third with ease. Most infuriating game in a long time because i knew it was coming and was still powerless to stop it. Speaking of which, what is the best way to fight this build as Terran?
Would anyone be willing to share some replays of this in action? IMO, replays of good players are more helpful illustrations than VODs of professionals.
Great guide as always, but I would really like to be able to open the images in a higher resolution (even in another tab, if nothing else is possible). Having a picture description of "The big blue dot on the minimap is a bunch of SCVs." is kind of silly when the picture is resized to 600x337.
Everything else in this guide was absolutely phenomenal. Really good job and thanks for another awesome guide TL!
While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
YOU REQUIRE MORE GHOSTS (Brood Queen voice)
Chargelots die pretty quickly to kiting if you EMP them first. Archons melt to EMPs. HTs become useless supply if you EMP them. Use scan to remove Obs and track the enemy. Then win the Ghost vs HT war.
While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
YOU REQUIRE MORE GHOSTS (Brood Queen voice)
Chargelots die pretty quickly to kiting if you EMP them first. Archons melt to EMPs. HTs become useless supply if you EMP them. Use scan to remove Obs and track the enemy. Then win the Ghost vs HT war.
Adding to this; if he goes for the 2-base Storm/Charge/Archon all-in variant (i.e. doesn't take a third and just bum-rushes you with a million Zealots backed by Storms and 3-4 Archons), you have so much opportunity to win the base race as Terran. Seriously, someone did exactly that to me the other day and I loaded up 6 Medivacs before the attack hit, jetted to his base, and spent the next 15 minutes giving him a death animation while he tried to catch to speedvacs and floating buildings with only Archons as AA tech.
What Teoita said earlier about kiting is SUPER important if they're playing an aggressive version of this. You really can kite practically infinitely back to your base if he tries to push out because the HT will never catch properly microed Medivacs and bioballs. Stay clear of the Archon splash and by the time he gets to your base all you should need to do is pre-split and pull 30 SCVs to engage and then faceroll his remaining forces once the Storms are all wasted.
There's no such thing as an archon+storm allin because it's way too slow and it's very unreliable. The most common variation of zealot/archon allins these days is the fast double forge, 2/2 build that parting first used vs flash on star station, or alternatively some variants of the immortal/archon timing i mentioned.
If you are going to commit hardcore to 2base you generally don't get storm. As i wrote in the guide, you generally can't really push across the map with storm because you just get kited to death as you move out, while templar lag too far behind to be useful. It's very possible, however, to put pressure on a terran IF THE PROTOSS KNOWS WHERE HIS ARMY IS, AND WHERE IT WILL STAY IN THE FOLLOWING MINUTE OR SO. This is where the warp prism is key; as i posted, if you can control his army movement with harassment you will have an easier time with, say, pushing out and pressuring his third while taking your own. That is, by no means, an allin by the protoss. It's just taking advantage of the map control that harassment gives you.
Wait, it shows 2 entirely different transitions with this opener against a medivac timing... One of them is based on making a prism to harass and buy time for storm and +2 to finish and the other one includes 3~ immortals and a DT drop to take a third behind it. First of all, which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder. However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd. Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this...
Although, Thanks to Teoita for this awesome guide I'm sure I'll be wrecking alot of terrans with this styles when I'll master it
Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
On September 01 2014 03:16 Teoita wrote: Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
I think you could be a little bit too hasty by saying something isn't viable just a few weeks after a change to game balance (that honestly wasn't that game-breaking in the first place). Mine builds against Storm have always been good, and only up until now people have started to claim that it's not viable, perhaps because Terrans have started to catch on and use it more often. Even back in season 1, well before the mine buffs, Terrans like Maru and Bomber were still using Mines to great effect the exact same way we're seeing today, but nobody said anything about it back then.
The only real change is that it punishes harder if the Protoss has to a-move over the top of a well-established mine field. This is why modern Storm builds open with a lot of Immortals or Blink to deal with mine containments. If you're just derping and a-moving over a minefield then you deserve to die, and unfortunately before mine builds existed, Protoss could do that basically whenever they wanted. Nowadays, it's simply about approaching it wisely with the supporting units rather than just attacking at whatever you want and not having to worry about losing your army (like in WoL).
I've still seen Storm builds used occasionally at the pro level after the buff, and the fact that it is still used and wins games at the pro level at the very least should warrant you to think twice about declaring it dead. It's not common but it's definitely far from non-viable.
On September 01 2014 03:16 Teoita wrote: Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
I think you could be a little bit too hasty by saying something isn't viable just a few weeks after a change to game balance (that honestly wasn't that game-breaking in the first place). Mine builds against Storm have always been good, and only up until now people have started to claim that it's not viable, perhaps because Terrans have started to catch on and use it more often. Even back in season 1, well before the mine buffs, Terrans like Maru and Bomber were still using Mines to great effect the exact same way we're seeing today, but nobody said anything about it back then.
The only real change is that it punishes harder if the Protoss has to a-move over the top of a well-established mine field. This is why modern Storm builds open with a lot of Immortals or Blink to deal with mine containments. If you're just derping and a-moving over a minefield then you deserve to die, and unfortunately before mine builds existed, Protoss could do that basically whenever they wanted. Nowadays, it's simply about approaching it wisely with the supporting units rather than just attacking at whatever you want and not having to worry about losing your army (like in WoL).
I've still seen Storm builds used occasionally at the pro level after the buff, and the fact that it is still used and wins games at the pro level at the very least should warrant you to think twice about declaring it dead. It's not common but it's definitely far from non-viable.
Please, link some pro games where this was used successfully against mines and it wasn't a "surprise" build(= it was scouted). Thanks! Because I cannot remember any and I really, really love templar openings
Even if (as is likely) you could still do this by microing individual zealots, triggering charge at the right time etc etc...what's the point of doing that when you can just amove stalker/colossus instead, having the same strength in your midgame army for a fraction of the effort?
Imo with the current mine, templar isn't viable not because mines will always kill it (they may not if you play perfectly), but because executing perfectly vs mines is so much harder than just going colossus first, it's not worth trying. With colossus styles evolving to hold scv pulls more effectively and blink/warp prism openings being common, a lot of the pros of this style (more map presence and harassment potential, more safety vs scv pulls, better builds that can afford a solid observer network) are being incorporated into colossus builds for a fraction of the effort.
what's the point of doing that when you can just amove stalker/colossus instead, having the same strength in your midgame army for a fraction of the effort?
First of all, I dont really like Colo/blink openings. Thats why I came here in the first place.
it's not worth trying
So basically everyone should go colo/blink because templar style is hard to pull off? And what If i dont like the easy way, bro?
more safety vs scv pulls,
Most of the colo/blink builds still suck vs scv pulls. I havent seen a single one which is DESIGNED to stop scv pulls while going colo/blink midgame.
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
Flash isn't even the best Terran in the world, let alone the best player (Maru says hi). He won an IEM. That's great and all, but it's not quite the world championship or even a GSL.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: First of all, I dont really like Colo/blink openings. Thats why I came here in the first place.
Neither do i, but the hard truth is, with the way the game is right now they are the only solid midgame option on most maps. You can do whatever you wish - in fact, i know of GM protosses that do the most fucking retarded builds like 2base tempest allins in PvT - but if we are talking about wether this style is viable/should work consistently, the answer is simply, no, not as well as colossus.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: So basically everyone should go colo/blink because templar style is hard to pull off? And what If i dont like the easy way, bro?
If you want to play a sub optimal style, that is up to you. None is stopping you from going 1base carrier or not getting Aoe vs terran, and im sure at whatever level you play at (and i mean literally whatever level below pro) you can win 50% of your games. That doesn't mean you aren't playing a sub optimal style.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: Most of the colo/blink builds still suck vs scv pulls. I havent seen a single one which is DESIGNED to stop scv pulls while going colo/blink midgame.
cjherO's double forge/blink build is the first example that comes to mind. The simple adjustment of not cutting colossi in the midgame for faster storm and starting extra gates before the gasses at your third can be enough to hold on many maps, and the vast majority of colossus builds can go for that type of adjustment during the game.
Additionally, older Colossus builds are rotating back into the metagame, which might be why you seem to believe colossi builds always die to them. Because there are in fact colossus builds that are safe against scv pulls, terrans have been using them less than before the rise of templar builds, therefore allowing protoss to be greedier with their storm timings. Of course that does make use vulnerable to the boys again, but that kind of all-in (at least at the pro level) is NOT the standard around which every build is prepared. It's kind of like PvZ at the end of 2012: protosses were being insanely greedy in setting up their pre-bl timings, and that exposed them to roach max kind of crap. However, roach max was considerably less popular (if not outright excting), so cutting that corner was in fact reasonably safe.
Of course, this is all relevant to the top level. On ladder absolutely EVERYTHING is viable, which means that frankly strategy discussions around ladder play are kind of meaningless; the answer is always "do whatever the fuck you want as long as you execute better than your opponent".
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
Flash isn't even the best Terran in the world, let alone the best player (Maru says hi). He won an IEM. That's great and all, but it's not quite the world championship or even a GSL.
okay, maybe he's not the one best player in the world but my point still stands. How can you say a style is not viable when a player like flash loses to it. and its not like those rare occassions where a player tried mech vs protoss and the protoss loses because he didn't scout and reacted horribly. In this game flash knew it quite early and he built widow mines and pressured with them. he did all the things that are "unbeatable" without collossi but mc still managed to defend the pressure and win the game. maybe its not as easy as before the mine buff but its definitely a viable playstyle and a solid alternative to collossi styles.
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
You're taking that wayyyyyy too definitively for a game that was wonky as fuck.
Firstly, his '2-base Templar' begins as more of a mass Immortal/Gateway composition transitioning into Templar. It's an opening that should have put MC more behind that it did, and only Flash's timidity and some mismicro saves him from just dying to the first max-out by Flash.
Secondly, don't accept Flash's blunders with army control as indicative of the broader viability of MC's style. There is a reason that no one plays this style except MC, and even MC is far more likely to Void Ray all-in you, or Colossus all-in you, or ninja expand than play this kind of 2-base Templar play.
Lastly, for this ONE game, you can make the argument that there's no way to say whether the style is viable. Then, however, you have to explain away the myriad of other games that we saw post-shield-damage-patch which establish pretty definitively that you should not be playing this way versus a dedicated Terran who knows what to do. Add to that the fact that the splash damage got re-buffed back to pre-nerf levels and the shield splash still exists? I don't see that there's any way to argue that a committed bio-mine assault doesn't wreck 2-base Templar styles which are forced to rely on units that are awful versus Mines.
Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
It's just very difficult to play cost efficiently vs a terran who mixes in mines in the midgame. You tend to end up bleeding units over multiple engagements, and as long as the terran is careful about not over committing into you, he can chip away at you cost effectively. Collosus allow you to clear out mines much more easily and safely.
On September 02 2014 03:59 Teoita wrote: Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
Just because something else is "better" doesn't mean there's not an alternative style. If you want to only talk about the most ideal and standard strategy, then let's only talk about +2 Blink openers in PvZ, and Defensive Blink into Colossus builds in PvP because Stargate builds are harder to use. Why discuss strategy at all if you're only going to talk about one vein of strategy?
Regarding the ease of use, of course Colossus openers are easier to use. When were they ever not? However, they don't offer the same level of micro potential and harassment that Storm does. If your approach to PvT is simply to win with straight up army fights over and over and you want to be able to a-move into whatever you want, then sure, I guess Colossus are a better option. But once again, if Storm was a sub-optimal build and there wasn't any point to using it anymore, then why are we seeing pros opt to use Storm before Colossus, or really fast Storm switches after 1 rangeless Colossus (just like we saw in WoL)? The tech as a main staple of the army is still useful, but it doesn't work like it did in WoL.
I've been saying this all along and that is that there never should be an army composition that can a-move at whatever it wants without consequence. The only place it has consistently existed is PvT and that's why Terrans have claimed BS for so long. Since Protoss players were used to that, and now that they can't do that with a particular opener, I think it's funny how everyone labels it non-viable because you can't a-move. We still see pros using it here and there, so the notion that it isn't viable is a simple overreaction. People will soon adjust to the new nuances of Storm openers and it will stick around.
On September 02 2014 03:59 Teoita wrote: Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
Just because something else is "better" doesn't mean there's not an alternative style. If you want to only talk about the most ideal and standard strategy, then let's only talk about +2 Blink openers in PvZ, and Defensive Blink into Colossus builds in PvP because Stargate builds are harder to use. Why discuss strategy at all if you're only going to talk about one vein of strategy?
Regarding the ease of use, of course Colossus openers are easier to use. When were they ever not? However, they don't offer the same level of micro potential and harassment that Storm does. If your approach to PvT is simply to win with straight up army fights over and over and you want to be able to a-move into whatever you want, then sure, I guess Colossus are a better option. But once again, if Storm was a sub-optimal build and there wasn't any point to using it anymore, then why are we seeing pros opt to use Storm before Colossus, or really fast Storm switches after 1 rangeless Colossus (just like we saw in WoL)? The tech as a main staple of the army is still useful, but it doesn't work like it did in WoL.
I've been saying this all along and that is that there never should be an army composition that can a-move at whatever it wants without consequence. The only place it has consistently existed is PvT and that's why Terrans have claimed BS for so long. Since Protoss players were used to that, and now that they can't do that with a particular opener, I think it's funny how everyone labels it non-viable because you can't a-move. We still see pros using it here and there, so the notion that it isn't viable is a simple overreaction. People will soon adjust to the new nuances of Storm openers and it will stick around.
Many people believe Colossus openings are clearly superior (not just easier to execute) in the current patch. Colossus openings can be standard because you can do them every game even if the opponent knows what you are doing, and you should have decent chances to get safely into the midgame (3 bases) without taking build order loses (as long as you scout for cheese). Storm openings are much more fragile. They were always a little bit fragile even before all the mine buffs. Now, they seem really exploitable. So that's probably why Korean pros aren't using them as a standard opening, nonwithstanding that one nice game from MC.
None of this should be a surprise. The 75 mineral, 25 gas mines now do more damage to Protoss units than Tier 3 Psi Storm. They are cloaked, can be dropped like bombs, fire every 40 seconds, don't need any research to be useful, and can be built from a reactor early as 6:00. That's pretty good for a unit that costs the same as a roach or half as much as a stalker.
There are still a lot of variables regarding who wins the Mine vs Storm/Stalker/Immortal/whatever fight, and a Terran can typically play more greedy and put a lot less attention into defending Warp Prisms and whatnot when fighting Colossus. Storm builds have always been counter-attack heavy and relied a lot on just having enough to defend at home while punishing the Terran for being out on the map. That's something Colossus builds for the most part really don't offer considering you can't really zone as well with Colossus armies as you can with Storms, so you need enough units to buffer Colossus armies when either side decides to commit.
I agree that Colossus is easier to do and therefore will be more popular, but Storm builds as a secondary and to keep people on their toes are still plenty viable, so you will see them mixed into BoX's all the time. Those builds will continue down the path of harassment and counterattacks while playing supremely defensive with the Storms, considering if every Terran's response is super aggro mine play then they can punish them for being on the map the whole game. It's just a different pace, different feel. I'm not arguing that Storm openers are better, but they are still plenty viable. The only type of Storm openers that will die off are ones that want to attack in the midgame and win with a couple good Storms on the army at the Terran base. Also, sloppy openers that rely on Zealot Charge and a-moving will be dead, and good riddance.
Still, I don't see how the most recent patch really impacted the matchup that much anyway. In the past, if you attacked into an established minefield you still would trade poorly with Zealots. Maru used to do this stuff all the time. A-moving over mines was never the goal of Storm openers as long as mines have been around, whether on this patch or the previous one. The mission should be to slowly gain territory with Stalkers, Immortals, etc while protecting those units with Storms. If you ever clear out the mines or get a surround with Zealots, WP storm drops, etc, then their army should get shredded partially due to friendly fire or just not having mines in the back. Either way, you are forcing them to be on the map if they want to play a mine containment style, so counterattacks and harassment should be pretty regular.
On September 02 2014 09:05 Salient wrote:...a unit that costs the same as a roach or half as much as a stalker.
I think that's the real problem here :p
Anyhow, I would have to agree with Teo for the most part: ANYTHING is viable on ladder, so if you're goal is to just have fun and enjoy the game, just do whatever. You don't have to play bio because it's the "right" way to play Terran, and likewise, you don't have to play only colossus openers just because someone says that templar openings are dead.
In professional play, we have seen templar openings almost completely die off except for a handful of rare and glorious games (because I think all of us here agree that templar openings are way more exciting and amazing). However, going so far as to say they are completely dead isn't QUITE right; they still have plenty of winning potential under the right circumstances, but the right circumstances are much fewer and far between than before the mine buff. In terms of winning consistently or playing to improve, your prerogative should always be to use WHAT WORKS. If you insist on only playing your unique style, you might improve, you might even become GM, you might even become Goody...eventually. But the fastest way to improve and to learn is by doing things that work. For this reason, I will always recommend people away from things in professional games that are based on gimmicks, surprise, or metagame. The fastest road to improvement is by practicing solid and consistent gameplay.
For instance, I ALWAYS recommend people away from MC in particular. MC plays his own unique style, is a strong mechanical player, and seems to make things that would otherwise never work for other players work for him. This is because he knows what he's doing. To try and emulate MC is to study a far-removed unique creature which you cannot even begin to understand because you don't even understand the environment for which these strategies are created. Certainly, over time, this can be understood and used. But unless you're already easy GM and skill and semi-pro, this simply takes too long to learn.
All of that said, remember to keep the first thing first: have fun. If you are not happy with going colossus every game, just work on templar openings and try to find a way to fit it into the game and optimize your game play. But for the purposes of advice, remember the perspective that players like me and Teoita are coming from: we want you do well and have fun, but we will always steer you towards more stable, reliable gameplay because we believe that's the most important thing to let you know.
which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder. However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd. Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this...
I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox... Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it...
which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder. However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd. Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this...
I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox... Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it...
If you play templar openings now, they have to be heavily oriented around timings and/or constant harass, so I move that either is good as long as you're using them in an aggressive fashion. I posted a while back about potentially using This 4-immortal/archon timing or something similar to open into a fairly solid templar mid game. If you want, you can mess around with that and see what you can come up with.
If you do the fast storm variant, I think constant warp prism harass is MANDATORY, complete with storm drops. Otherwise, you'll just end up hemorrhaging units and slowly falling behind in economy and army until you just die. Unlike some of the other opinions expressed in here, it's pretty much impossible to not bleed out units against Terran biomine pressure with templar builds.
As far as the DT -> immortal -> HT build, it's not really that gas intensive. Since you generally go single forge with templar builds and since immortals are so mineral-heavy, you're really only spending significant amounts of gas on the initial DTs and tech and then all the rest of your 2-3 base gas income gets dumped into HT and charge (only a small fraction). I also like the idea of opening DTs against Terran because it sets you up to defend drops a lot better in the mid game; along with WP harassment and good army movement, it's incredible how stable you can get. The biggest difficulty is just that this style forces SOOOOOOOOOOO much multi-tasking, which is especially hard if you're facing a Maru-esque player who excels at multi-tasking.
I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox... Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it...
If you do the fast storm variant, I think constant warp prism harass is MANDATORY, complete with storm drops. Otherwise, you'll just end up hemorrhaging units and slowly falling behind in economy and army until you just die. Unlike some of the other opinions expressed in here, it's pretty much impossible to not bleed out units against Terran biomine pressure with templar builds.
Agreed, harassment has to be a big component of it. I've been liking opening with 2 Oracles and keeping them pinned in their base while I start +1 armor and get into Storm pretty quickly. You do have to keep them busy with Zealot warp-ins, Storm drops, etc, and use your Storm exclusively to zone the Terran out from key positioning on the map (for example, if they burrow mines in range of a Nexus, you're pretty screwed). Meeting them at odd parts of the map with your army (rather than waiting right at your base), before the mines are burrowed, is a good way to get some damage on him while he's not expecting it, sort of like catching tanks unseiged. Using cannons back near your base rather than Zealots is a good way to spend minerals and not die so easily to Mine pushes.
If you start to get pushed back, you need to mix in Stalkers with Blink or Immortals very quickly, otherwise breaking those mine containments is impossible. Immortals tend to be better because the Marines die easily to Storms, and those armies are often very Marauder-heavy after a few skirmishes. The micro for breaking minefields is just seeking forward with an observer, a few Stalkers/Immortals to pick off mines, and 1-2 Templar to Storm whatever tries to kill the Immortals/Stalkers. You'll use this small pack of units quite a bit until the mines are cleared, until you can get a pack of Zealots behind and in front of him, or until he commits into your army. There's a pretty linear system of choices you have to make based on whatever is in range of your Immortals. Just practice it and you'll figure it out.
Eventually you will need to switch into Colossus because a Ghost transition is inevitable. Sometimes you can win those battles, but if you get mass EMP'ed with Storm/Immortal then you are simply dead. I like to switch into Colossus very sharply, like 2 Robos and then exploit their overcommitment into Mine + Ghost, which does very little to stop 4-6 Colossus.
What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
The point isn't having detection. Even with detection (and observers are better at detecting mines pushing into your third than oracles are), it's just extremly hard to engage properly and not have all your zealots evaporate.
On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote: What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition.
If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game.
I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice.
On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote: What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition.
If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game.
I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice.
I get the composition that you are going for, but what happens if the Terran scouts the Immortals, instantly knows you are playing a Templar style, and just goes 5-rax Reactored Mines/Medivacs balls to the wall aggression? I just don't see that composition dealing well with the style. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really hard to go Oracle -> Charge -> Immortals +Templar + Storm and still have enough gas for well-timed upgrades. I'm just theorycrafting, but I have a hard time believing that you can keep up with the firepower available to a decently micro'd Terran army with equal or better upgrades and half-decent micro.
On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote: What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition.
If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game.
I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice.
I get the composition that you are going for, but what happens if the Terran scouts the Immortals, instantly knows you are playing a Templar style, and just goes 5-rax Reactored Mines/Medivacs balls to the wall aggression? I just don't see that composition dealing well with the style. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really hard to go Oracle -> Charge -> Immortals +Templar + Storm and still have enough gas for well-timed upgrades. I'm just theorycrafting, but I have a hard time believing that you can keep up with the firepower available to a decently micro'd Terran army with equal or better upgrades and half-decent micro.
The problem isn't really the gas or the lack of upgrades in templar styles. As I mentioned earlier, most templar builds go single forge anyway because you don't need the attack upgrade as much. In addition, charge and immortals are fairly gas inexpensive (because charge obviously relates directly to mineral only units). THE PROBLEM is that 1) templar are actually mostly useless if they don't have energy (minor problem because if you're really good, you can slowly accumulate archons) and 2) it's IMPOSSIBLE to keep from hemorrhaging units to the mine push, the drops, etc., etc. And it's soooooooooooooooo hard to keep detection in all the right places at once and not get it sniped.
The point is, it's not hard to afford the composition, but because you're constantly bleeding units and can never get an overwhelming army/storm advantage, you slowly just starve out and die until the Terran can overrun. The only real way around this (aside from just hoping your opponent will play badly and very passively) is to keep up constant harassment in the form of storm drops, zealot drops/runbys, and DTs. This is the only way to stay even on the economy/general army size as well as keep the pressure off your third base and prevent the snowball factor.
EPT
Liquipedia![[image loading]](/staff/Teoita/2BaseTemplar/Defensive_cannons.jpg)
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![[image loading]](/staff/Teoita/2BaseTemplar/Observers.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Vod.png)
Parting vs. Flash on Daybreak from WCS KR Season 1. Against medivac timing.![[image loading]](/staff/Teoita/2BaseTemplar/When_behind.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Teoita/2BaseTemplar/Dark_Shrine.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Teoita/2BaseTemplar/Hax.jpg)
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. Great guide
Great guide though! 
!
