EPT[G] The Triple Barrel Bust - Zerg vs Terran - Page 5
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rikter
United States352 Posts
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spalding
95 Posts
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HanSomPa
United States87 Posts
On June 15 2013 07:54 rikter wrote: There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else. We are not talking about that. Hellion reactor is not used on pro level specifically because you cannot deny quick 3 bases from Zerg. The Queen patch is a very big deal. Just because you face baddie zergs on ladder won't mean it'll keep happening. You are arguing that Hellion Reactor is viable, which it is not anymore. The only way it'll punish someone is incredibly bad play and bad reactions from the Zerg. First drone scout, he will see your gas whether you like it or not. He will scout your reactor Hellion either with a ling poke or an oy sacc. Once he sees reactor hellion he will simply get 6 Queens 3 Hatches. You won't be able to deny it a tall with hellions. There is zero chance of that happening. Furthermore, his creep will still be out of control. The way it currently works on pro level is that Terrans allow that creep to spread until roughly 10 minutes. With Hellion Reactor you get your CC around 21 supply. It lands in your nat around 32 supply. I know this because I play Terran and I used Reactor Hellion into strong 2 base timings before and after the Queen patch in WoL. Here is the proper zerg reaction. 6 Queen 3 Hatch, drone like mad.Sacc an ovy, ling poke around 6:30-8:30 to scout production or unit comp. Make a perfect counter to your army and blow it up when you push. Proceed to get 5 bases or allin for a kill. This is why Reactor Hellion isn't done anymore. You can read all about it in the Terran Help me Thread for WoL and HotS. Stephano is horrible so far in HotS and you should be watching GSL zergs winning and losing games to really improve your TvZ. Korean Terrans aren't boring macro monsters. There are a variety of allins done besides 11/11 in CodeA and Code S. @vaderseven I wasn't referring to you but I saw a couple of peope dismissing this build a bit and bringing up drops. Which is not what this build is about. Drop will get completely shut down before 14:00 because of the number of units you have. Not to mention the static defense you should be getting along the game anyway. In fact, I think you bring a very good point about Select and Flash/Innovation. That is the difference between 3CC Macro vs 2CC Production CC opening. 2 Base play means you should play super turtle. Protect your drones, make sveral more rounds of troops and completely crush the Terran army. Because the terran delayed his 3rd CC he needs to preserve his troops or do extreme damage to come out even, otherwise he wont't be able to set up his third base. With 3cc Duble Bay you atleast have an obscene economy to try to come back. With delayed CC there is no coming back if your initial pressure accomplishes nothing. | ||
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focusfight
4 Posts
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Flash3894
3 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
First I want to say thank you for this great guide. I've been struggling a lot in ZvT lately that whenever I get Terran on ladder, I just want to quit. But with this build, the game has become fun again. Secondly, I've been using this build all of yesterday and my feedbacks are 1. First Barrel seems weakest to Hellbat drop openers with CC in their main. The lings are rendered useless. What is your response if your 14 lings run over to see 2 hellbats and 2 hellions up the ramp? 2. Second bust is awesome, this can transition to soulkey-esque all-ins if you've done enough damage. 3. Third bust, I don't like at all. Right after the second bust, the Terran is almost always behind. They will try to get back in the game by dropping EVERYWHERE. I really don't like the idea of defending a million drops while letting Terrans get another CC up. Masters level and above can do it, but I'm only diamond league. Yesterday, one random 2 medivac with 2 hellbats and 8 marines wrecked my main's mineral's line. I couldn't get back in time no matter how many speedlings I had. Solution: Mutalisk transition after 2nd bust You should have enough gas for at least 15 mutalisks when the bust is over. -Since the Terran is still recoiling from the damage done, they will have little to defend muta-harassment. -The mutalisk will impede and discourage all drop plays while you take a 4th, get hive and whatever late game units you want. This seems like a better play than just hitting the ultra timing at 18 minutes. I want to hear your thoughts on the matter | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 16 2013 02:58 Flash3894 wrote: This is a great guide and build, i just have one question, can i start with your other early roach ling pressure build and transition into the 2nd barrel and so on? Absolutely, in fact you can do any aggressive opening then transition to the second barrel. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:47 neoghaleon55 wrote: 1. First Barrel seems weakest to Hellbat drop openers with CC in their main. The lings are rendered useless. What is your response if your 14 lings run over to see 2 hellbats and 2 hellions up the ramp? Yesterday, one random 2 medivac with 2 hellbats and 8 marines wrecked my main's mineral's line. I couldn't get back in time no matter how many speedlings I had. Solution: Mutalisk transition after 2nd bust You should have enough gas for at least 15 mutalisks when the bust is over. -Since the Terran is still recoiling from the damage done, they will have little to defend muta-harassment. -The mutalisk will impede and discourage all drop plays while you take a 4th, get hive and whatever late game units you want. This seems like a better play than just hitting the ultra timing at 18 minutes. I want to hear your thoughts on the matter If your first 14 lings arrive and you scout that he's going Hellbats, or for whatever reason suspect a Hellbat drop, it would be reasonable to add a Spore/Spine to each mineral line (think Soulkey's placement in GSL finals). In general though, those drops should come around the time your Roaches are building anyway, so if your reaction time is good (pull Drones) and your 3Queens focus the medivacs, you can minimize damage. I think a Mutalisk transition is highly viable (after the second bust), just drop a spire while you Drone your third and aim for that same 66+ worker economy before switching into Ling/Bling/Muta production. | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
Plus having more than one style is something i really need right now. Cheers and thanks for all your work. | ||
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Crugio
Australia45 Posts
Is there a reason for getting 1/1 earlier then lair? I.e. why you don't use say an optimised timing for the Barrel 2 push? On 4 gas, e.g.: First 100g to Lair, 2xEvo, RW, Next 50g to Bane Nest Next 250g to +1/+1, Next 250g and @ 100% Lair: Roach Speed/Bane Speed Of course these could be delayed if there is a need to spend gas on roaches/banes earlier. Seems that the critical path for Barrel 2 is Lair into both speeds (80s + 110s = 190s). Followed by +1/+1 at 160s | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:08 Crugio wrote: I really like the ideas around this build. Is there a reason for getting 1/1 earlier then lair? I.e. why you don't use say an optimised timing for the Barrel 2 push? On 4 gas, e.g.: First 100g to Lair, 2xEvo, RW, Next 50g to Bane Nest Next 250g to +1/+1, Next 250g and @ 100% Lair: Roach Speed/Bane Speed Of course these could be delayed if there is a need to spend gas on roaches/banes earlier. Seems that the critical path for Barrel 2 is Lair into both speeds (80s + 110s = 190s). Followed by +1/+1 at 160s That's true, except that it takes 35 seconds to build the Evo chambers (195 seconds to finish upgrades from scratch). You could build the 2 Evo Chambers, then start the Lair with the first 100gas. I'd have to test it but I think that is a little bit more optimized. A sequence like... 2xEvo Lair +1/+1 RW/Bane Nest | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
Me? I can read the title of a guide's name and know who wrote it. I honestly think this guy wakes up in the morning and says "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in, rather an 'attack' or 'aggression'?" Its the same. Every time with the exception of the Stephano-style macro guide, which was actually really good. Interesting to note how this guide is very similar to other "aggression" guides written by Tang. The guide that has all the screenshots on Metropolis... I will look for the OP... its basically heavy, all-in "agression" followed by making zero units for several minutes in the effort to making a "maxed out zergling baneling ultralisk army with good upgrades by 14 minutes". Like I don't understand how these guides keep cropping up. Like, I mean, good on you for 'contributing' to the community, though I don't wanna get too praise-filled because I know that you make money off of the community. I guess this just shows an interesting difference. The people that are creating solid, macro-style content are much more respected and in some cases receiving a higher kickback financially. But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
On June 17 2013 16:02 phrenzy wrote: Tang seriously this is brilliant. I am having so much trouble right now zvt. I know a few people who have switched races and they say its less effort and more effective. They could be super biased but the only style i have been playing is Blade's guide. And it is solid. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. The problem for me is dealing with drops and engaging armies. I make drones for however long i can get away with and when they make their push i either just die or struggle to survive. And trying to kill and army that can position themselves is way harder than if you bring the fight to them. Plus having more than one style is something i really need right now. Cheers and thanks for all your work. This is exactly the kind of player you cater to Tang. 'I've been losing ZvT with macro play at the level I play at ladder, (whatever that ladder is) so now I will start using your all-ins and hopefully beat players that are better than I am! Like, I guess you're making people happy. It's kind of like the MaximusBlack effect. He makes his followers, who are cult-like in their devotion, happy. Good for him I guess. Even though all he is doing is to help foster the growth of the angry, raging, 4gate scum that pollute this mostly spectacular community. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: It really bothers me how the people on TL will just accept a well-written guide, regardless of the content, and praise TangSC like everyone does. Me? I can read the title of a guide's name and know who wrote it. I honestly think this guy wakes up in the morning and says "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in, rather an 'attack' or 'aggression'?" Its the same. Every time with the exception of the Stephano-style macro guide, which was actually really good. Interesting to note how this guide is very similar to other "aggression" guides written by Tang. The guide that has all the screenshots on Metropolis... I will look for the OP... its basically heavy, all-in "agression" followed by making zero units for several minutes in the effort to making a "maxed out zergling baneling ultralisk army with good upgrades by 14 minutes". Like I don't understand how these guides keep cropping up. Like, I mean, good on you for 'contributing' to the community, though I don't wanna get too praise-filled because I know that you make money off of the community. I guess this just shows an interesting difference. The people that are creating solid, macro-style content are much more respected and in some cases receiving a higher kickback financially. But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) GleaM if you want to make honest criticism of certain aspects of this style (like that the Roach/Bane timing is on a 2-base economy instead of 3), then that's fine. In fact, I'd welcome it because such a discussion would be focused and constructive. Even if you wanted to condemn the content of the guide, or personally insult me, I'd tolerate it with an open mind and look for ways to learn from what you've said. But your last two posts are so filled with you-know-what that you seem to be overlooking the chance to use your knowledge to contribute in any meaningful or helpful way. You even insulted someone who read and enjoyed the guide, and for me that's just so low and unforgivable. You think that I just wake up in the morning and say "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in"; and you're goddamn right I do. I love studying aggressive strategies, I love all-ins, and I love blurring the lines between the two. That is how I have learned and played Starcraft II since the first day I bought it, because for me it has been the most fun and effective, and if you think that's wrong, well, tell that to the big grin on my face. Or tell it to GSL Zerg pros like Shine, who almost exclusively uses aggressive early timings and well-planned transitions. Or Soulkey, who used 2Base Roach/Bane all-ins to beat Innovation in the GSL finals - the most competitive SC2 tournament in the world. Starcraft II strategy is not so black and white as you say, and your personal opinion on how the game should be played is based on your own flawed mindset that all-ins = evil; and this is a way of thinking that needs to change. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Sounds neat man. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote: But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do. | ||
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SpeCtor
233 Posts
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