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On June 14 2013 06:50 SacredCoconut wrote:Show nested quote +thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build. That is just so not true... Meaby its not greatest against cc first, but it is not unusable against it. Against reaper expand other hands its great as well as some of the gimmicky openings like 2 racks or 8/8/8 which are FREE win. Not every terran scv scouts, have good building placement or when they scout the pool first overreact and you can scout this and still be ahead/even. For enyone lower than master the disadvantage wont even matter that much, life fucking won games after going 10p which does nothing. By the way i watched your stream and it dosent realy matter if you do hatch first or pool first the problems in your play are else where.
I gave up scv scouting in tvz, its a waste of an scv. I wall off my main in time to stop 6/10 pool, and hellions are out in time to scout everything else. I stopped using reapers for similar reasons. Much like life, an 888 or 2 rax terran has a window to recover when they spot the one base, but yes, this build would shut the attack down, and make it harder on T.
Just want to also comment that the guide itself is really well done, and its nice that it gives benchmarks and such for all phases of the game. The three barrel philosophy is good. it gets people thinking about complete games.
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On June 14 2013 07:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote:
How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build? Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva).
Thanks! When I tried this build earlier today, I didn't catch the e-bay block in time so he got it probably 90% of the way complete. That really set me back timing wise. I should've delayed my roach push a few minutes, since his e-bay block sets him back economically a bit as well. Instead I still hit at about 10:30 or 11, but with only half the force I could have.
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I'm not good enough to comment on the content of the guide, but everyone should agree that this is a seriously professional guide. I emailed HuskyReplays@gmail.com and asked him to cast one of your games. Thanks Tang!
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On June 14 2013 04:46 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 04:13 unarcher wrote:
You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order
At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
You're right I forgot those, thanks for pointing it out. Updated build to include Zergling speed at 18 and 5 Overlords at 58.
I didn't miss your point, you just didn't bother making one until one was asked for.
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the barrels seem to have great potential to do dmg vs no or less siege tanks, BUT there is a huge issue at gm level play. as soon as a terran realises whats up, he will tripple drop you during the second barrel while u move out and defend in the nat or sac it and go to the main. and no, 3 queens and a ling bane squad arent enough to deal with that unfortunately. you also cannot afford due the low eco to leave more stuff at home or/and build static d.
i think the build would be better with no barrel one but stronger eco instead to shutdown such counteraggression easily, havent tried that so far tho
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On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
I should have been more specific in that I favor a 3 CC 2 Eng bay style. Select was going for a 2 CC build in that game. Totally different reactions are needed when doing that.
Select's choice to add more production before the 3rd CC allows him to be more aggressive with the hellions than a 3 CC player would be, and he kills alot of drones. A 3 CC player would scout with the hellions then use them to ensure his 3rd can land early. Select can defend his 2 bases with pure bunkers while a 3 CC player would want a 3rd CC to add income to support the production base he is going for. Basically, Selects build was more powerful when the 2nd barrel would hit than standard Terran play. Select's strs as a player help to explain his choice there... he is amazing with his unit control so he will always be favoring builds that allow for more aggression.
To say you think tanks is an over-reaction assumes alot about the playstyle tbh. I assumed as well, but assuming 3 CC and 2 Eng bays is kinda acceptable because that is standard play. Tang's build is BEST vs the 3 CC 2 Eng play as well... thats why I outlined what should be a good course of thinking when playing that style.
edit-
in reply to below post:
On June 14 2013 17:53 Azerbaijan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978 I agree that SeleCT crushed that zerg but the 2nd attack came nearly a minute and half late. I kind of feel like if it had been on time SeleCT may have still held with those defenses but taken enough damage for the game to go on to an even late game.
It came late because Select was doing a 2 Base style after CC first into reactor hellions. Hellions in that style are much more able to be spent in harass, as such, Select utilized them correctly by killing alot of drones with them.
A more normal style of Terran would have had to conserve the hellions as they aer the only units you will have when you try to land your 3rd CC (all your other buildings are creating add-ons so you litterally have almost nothing besides the hellions as your 3rd lands.
Everything about that game was because it was a slightly less standard play from the Terran. You must understand that 'slight' differences in Terran build orderings (in this case CC Rax Gas Fac Reactor Rax Rax vs CC Rax Gas Fac Reactor CC Eng Eng Rax Rax) create completely different goals for the units created. COMPLETELY. Select understands this and thats why, no other reason, he plays that game out that way.
An interesting question might be to ask yourself what the Zerg should have done instead during that game. I think a Zerg needs to ID the difference between the Macro 3CC 2 Eng build and the Agro 2CC 3 Rax/1Fac/1Port build. A well-timed scout of the natural can do that by counting units or saccing an overlord right as the first hellions appear can as well. If you scout a 3 CC build you want to hit the 2nd Barrel fast and without that heavy of defense going into it. If you scout a 2CC build you want to make sure you are getting out some units quick enough to defend any timings.
Select runs in with his 6 hellions at 830 though he could have done so a bit earlier. He correctly checked for a 3rd base first and then ran them in so his timing is the correct one but another player could incorrectly choose to hit a stronger timing by skipping that scout (kinda blind soft countering the zergs choice to not expand). The build at around that time is as follows:
54 Evo Chamberx2 (6:30~, you should have roughly 100-150 gas and be mining off 2 geysers)
Drones to 56
56 Double Gas
Drone to 60 (Aim for 44+ Drones to fill all four gases with16 Drones per Mineral Field).
60 Upgrade +1 Carapace/+1 Melee
60 Lair, Roach Warren, Baneling Nest (All this should happen around 8:00).
(First off the 2 evos were not in the best positions but I think this build is so enegry starved that the queens can not really afford to spread some creep to allow for a good wall-off. Whatever, I'll leave that fact out there but put it aside for now.)
If the Zerg was aware that the Terran has not gone for the greedy standard then he should think about changing this part of the build order up! You don't need the upgrades nearly as fast because the Terran will be VERY behind in upgrades. You need the units faster as he will have more units and be more aggressive with each unit he does have.
I suggest a basic switch of the Roach Warren/Baneling Nest and the two Evos. You might only be able to get one then have to wait and get a 2nd, Im not sure, I don't care tbh, its just a basic idea. The goal is to delay upgrades by ~1:30 (which is still going to have your upgrades ahead or equal to the Terran for the 3rd Barrel) but have a few Roaches or Banes (I suggest roaches) to handle the hellion timing. I, personally, would practice having a few Roaches ready for hellions at 8:30 and then a few banes ready at ~9:30. This will very nicely handle alot of things that Terran might throw at you!
Then again, I am not a Zerg (I am a Terran), so I might be either missing an even better reaction or missing the point of not reacting to the difference between the two Terran styles... I think I am correct though in saying that it is Zergs best interest to react to the difference between 3CC/2Eng and 2CC/FastProduction. Since the Terran chooses when to do these as the Factory is finishing, you can fo sure scout his choice if you scout after first hellions.
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On June 14 2013 07:24 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction. Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
I agree that SeleCT crushed that zerg but the 2nd attack came nearly a minute and half late. I kind of feel like if it had been on time SeleCT may have still held with those defenses but taken enough damage for the game to go on to an even late game.
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You should mention that the supplies are keeping the 14 ling alive (I guess..?)
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There is a lot of off topic discussion imo. This build is meant as a direct counter to macro oriented openings. Specifically CC First and 1 Rax FE/Reaper variations.
To the guy who mentioned Hellion Reactor into Expo, that build is sub optimal and does not get your CC out as ast. It gets crushed by a myriad of Zerg openings. Triple Barrel is not meant to crush Reactor Hellion. If a deent Zerg sees reactor Hellion he'll get a 5:00 Third and proceed to laugh.
This is specifically an early agression opening meant to disrupt and crush macro oriented quick 3OC Terran builds loke the ones you were seeing from Innovation and Flash. How well your aggression plays out depends on both the execution of your opponent and yourself. This build does rely on sub par scouting however. It is my belief that once the Terran scouts your army comp through drops or Hellions, a proper reaction will absolutely crush any push a Zerg can make out of this build. However, most players like myself, low to mid masters and even as high as high masters will not have the mechanics to deal with this. This is what the Triple Barrel is about, giving Zergs a capability for massive aggression that can be viable throughout the whole game. It's very well done but it's pointless to get into theorycrafting about it. Tang already stated that this is not a GSL level build but yes, this build will easily get you into Masters if all you face are Terran Innovation wanna-bes.
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On June 14 2013 10:43 jbuck92 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:12 TangSC wrote:On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote:
How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build? Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva). I didn't catch the e-bay block in time so he got it probably 90% of the way complete. That really set me back timing wise. I should've delayed my roach push a few minutes, since his e-bay block sets him back economically a bit as well. Instead I still hit at about 10:30 or 11, but with only half the force I could have.
Yeah that's why I always send my second Overlord to the expansion still. I usually even position it by the expansion ramp to get advanced notice of any SCVs coming, because you really don't want to let him block you. And I think you're right about delaying your attack; I always make sure I reach 20 Roaches before building Lings/Banelings, so the attack may come later if you're messed with early on but the units are roughly the same.
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On June 14 2013 11:32 schwza wrote:
I'm not good enough to comment on the content of the guide, but everyone should agree that this is a seriously professional guide. I emailed HuskyReplays@gmail.com and asked him to cast one of your games. Thanks Tang!
You, sir, are awesome. tyvm!
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So if you're asking, "Why should I learn the Triple Barrel Bust instead of a more standard style that professionals use?" then the answer is that the Triple Barrel Bust was not made for a professional player to use, it was made for you to use
So true. I've been searching for a good follow up to my sloppy gold league 28 warren pressure and here you just throw out an entire game plan that even I can follow. TangSC, you just made my day!
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I do not really see the point in non pros doing these kind of builds tbh, as we do not really need a selection of builds for non bo1 tournies and these kind of all ins are boring and not particularly that hard to perform. Not sure what a ladder player gets out of doing this kind of stuff aside from if you have a match up that you currently just can not stand and want it over as fast as possible.
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On June 15 2013 05:52 Swift118 wrote:
(...) if you have a match up that you currently just can not stand and want it over as fast as possible.
This. Totally. Oh and they finally thought about nerfing a mineral dump unit that deals 30 damage in a spash that can be healed. Or a unit that even trades effectively when microed perfectly against (mine).
The first barrel is kinda nice and hardcounters all early allins from T. The second is rather difficult as it hits when the terran doule or triple drops you anyway. But against a turtle terren the second one is good if you move the roaches in first.
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amazing guide!
Thanks tang.
One thing I'm concerned about is your lack of anti-air in the late game
why not get a spire and a few corruptors as you're massing ultra and lings?
You can A-move the corruptors along with your ultrabanes and if things don't go well, make broodlords.
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On June 15 2013 02:44 HanSomPa wrote:
There is a lot of off topic discussion imo. This build is meant as a direct counter to macro oriented openings. Specifically CC First and 1 Rax FE/Reaper variations.
To the guy who mentioned Hellion Reactor into Expo, that build is sub optimal and does not get your CC out as ast. It gets crushed by a myriad of Zerg openings. Triple Barrel is not meant to crush Reactor Hellion. If a deent Zerg sees reactor Hellion he'll get a 5:00 Third and proceed to laugh.
This is specifically an early agression opening meant to disrupt and crush macro oriented quick 3OC Terran builds loke the ones you were seeing from Innovation and Flash. How well your aggression plays out depends on both the execution of your opponent and yourself. This build does rely on sub par scouting however. It is my belief that once the Terran scouts your army comp through drops or Hellions, a proper reaction will absolutely crush any push a Zerg can make out of this build. However, most players like myself, low to mid masters and even as high as high masters will not have the mechanics to deal with this. This is what the Triple Barrel is about, giving Zergs a capability for massive aggression that can be viable throughout the whole game. It's very well done but it's pointless to get into theorycrafting about it. Tang already stated that this is not a GSL level build but yes, this build will easily get you into Masters if all you face are Terran Innovation wanna-bes.
There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else.
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On June 15 2013 07:42 neoghaleon55 wrote:
One thing I'm concerned about is your lack of anti-air in the late game
why not get a spire and a few corruptors as you're massing ultra and lings?
You can A-move the corruptors along with your ultrabanes and if things don't go well, make broodlords.
You definitely can mix in a Spire while hive is building, and squeeze out some Corruptors or Mutalisks. Doesn't hurt to get the Spire even right after the 2nd bust and start air upgrades/Mutalisk midgame. Lots of options.
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There is more to the game than just economy, so while it may be sub optimal in that regard it is very optimal in others. I said as much in my earlier post, I find its worth the couple of svcs. My TVZ is above 80% against high diamond low masters zergs, many took fast thirds, but if you do MVPs timing attack they dont get the chance to really use it anyways. Reactor hellion expand is a nice middle of the road build, it gives you a lot of options. Its easy to defend zerg all ins, you have the option of a really strong midgame, and you can still choose to move into a third orbital, its hardly suicide and the units you have are so efficient that you can afford to be less than optimal somewhere else.
Same thing as the pool first. It may not be optimal in all cases, but it does have lot of advantages to it. Like you i have 70%+ winrate in ZvT in mid masters and early pool has given me prety easy win against top NA gm because he went for bunker rush.
I have only played reactor hellion 3 times and i won each one of them with pool first and i think they even each other prety nicely.
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EPT
