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JohnGreggor
Canada148 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote:But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against I've quoted the only relevant point in your post, but unfortunately this is a strategy thread instead of an opinion one so it shouldn't really be here. It took a while for you to get to the meat through all that text so I'll keep it concise: If you are expecting a response other than deal with it I think your in for disapointment. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo Of what? You can play so many ways from that if you just expand your knowledge. | ||
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AwM
United States80 Posts
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo I don't think so. I use to use a 4 queen opening off a 15/15/17 pool/hatch/gas. But something happened and that build started to fall behind. I will for sure try this one out though Tang, hopefully it does good work for me  | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 00:46 SpeCtor wrote: spotting a 15 pool opening is a sure sign imo I agree, spotting a 15pool with a gas is a sure sign of early aggression. I don't think it's easy for Terran to respond in a way that puts you much behind though, even knowing it's coming. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. Or even better, wall your natural by 5'50 and you're now impervious to Speedling pressure. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:15 TheDwf wrote: Or even better, wall your natural by 5'50 and you're now impervious to Speedling pressure. Yeah this works especially well on maps like Neo Planet LE. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. The initial 14 Lings is usually enough to kill the bunker/marines, but it's a bit of a waste to trade that way. It's better to run-by any bunkers and start hitting the top of the ramp and/or the expansion. You'd be surprised how many times the door is open, or the factory/barracks is swapping, or the Lings break the reactor. Worst case scenario, Terran is completely walled and pulls 6~ workers off the main mineral line to repair, and you kill 1-3 expansion SCVs while you pull out, then you still have some Speedlings alive for defence/map control. The 14 Speedlings are a surprisingly small investment, even when compared with a greedier hatch-first opening. The real meat of the build is the second bust; the first is meant more to throw Terran off their refined build/plan. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:03 stratmatt wrote: Im a diamond terran and I dont understand how the first barrell will stop my cc frst if I immedately build a bunker on the low ground. The best the zerg can hope for is to delay my mining until my helions pops and at that point I feel like Id already be ahead. Anyone care to shed some light? I never go reaper, aways cc first, sometimes even on the low ground depening on the map. welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. By the way, Tang, do you ever drone scout? I feel like the 3 barrel bust open is only good against gas first Terrans, a reaper sure sign. Not that it can't work against CC first or gasless rax first, just that there are better builds out there against those opens. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote: By the way, Tang, do you ever drone scout? I feel like the 3 barrel bust open is only good against gas first Terrans, a reaper sure sign. Not that it can't work against CC first or gasless rax first, just that there are better builds out there against those opens. I'm so attached to the Speedling opening that I do it regardless of my opponents' builds. I'm confident with it against gas-first, CC-first, 1-Rax FE, etc. I do think that you could Drone-scout and have a different first bust for each Terran opening (14 Speedlings for Reapers, Shine's 12 Roach against CC-first, etc.) but I don't Drone-scout myself, I want them minerals. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 19 2013 01:55 neoghaleon55 wrote: welcome to catz build, proxy hatch absolutely destroys CC high ground and is still contentious when built on the low ground. I'm diamond zerg. ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On June 19 2013 02:02 TheDwf wrote: ? No. And his post had nothing to do with proxy hatch anyway. sorry for tangential argument. I agree with this post, 14 lings don't do well against CC first, but catz build does. Which is why I'm advocating drone scouting...something that tang admits he doesn't do often. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 02:06 neoghaleon55 wrote: Which is why I'm advocating drone scouting...something that tang admits he doesn't do often. ...doesn't do ever* lol | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
soooooo bad!! | ||
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geoIOPS
40 Posts
Thank you for this very well written and organized guide. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
Most of you in my eyes havent even used or played against it that much, but if you think its not good thats your opinion. We have found it works good in masters. Ofc there is posibility that you just drone scout and decide with that what you do. I think yugioh does this if he sees posibility for reapers with drone scout he goes 15 pool 15 gas. Cant we alredy get over that point? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2013 02:22 geoIOPS wrote: just a quick question for you from a Terran player. There's been some talk in this thread about the differences between a Fact/3Rax/Port build off 2 base and the quick 3 CC builds for Terran following a CC first, 1rax FE or Reaper Expand. If the Zerg is going for some sort of 2 base pressure similar to your guide here, what do you think is the better response? I think thedwf can probably answer from the Terran perspective better than I can, but I'd advise a 1Rax FE --> 3CC w/ Tanks, or an early Hellbat drop into mech. | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
Not being a fan of speedling aggression, I would be interested if you would either point me in the direction of or you yourself write just a simple guide to a roach bane allin because every time I try its too late, I have too many drones, not enough units, it just isn't powerful, and I fall behind. Or if there are any modifications to the build that you suggest in this guide that would cut the first "barrel" (A metaphor that I would also appreciate being explained because I feel particularly thick not understanding it.). | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
A Triple Barrel Shotgun. I believe that is the reference. | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
On June 19 2013 00:27 TangSC wrote: GleaM if you want to make honest criticism of certain aspects of this style (like that the Roach/Bane timing is on a 2-base economy instead of 3), then that's fine. In fact, I'd welcome it because such a discussion would be focused and constructive. Even if you wanted to condemn the content of the guide, or personally insult me, I'd tolerate it with an open mind and look for ways to learn from what you've said. But your last two posts are so filled with you-know-what that you seem to be overlooking the chance to use your knowledge to contribute in any meaningful or helpful way. You even insulted someone who read and enjoyed the guide, and for me that's just so low and unforgivable. You think that I just wake up in the morning and say "What all-in can I theorycraft with my race, and how can I justify not calling it an all-in"; and you're goddamn right I do. I love studying aggressive strategies, I love all-ins, and I love blurring the lines between the two. That is how I have learned and played Starcraft II since the first day I bought it, because for me it has been the most fun and effective, and if you think that's wrong, well, tell that to the big grin on my face. Or tell it to GSL Zerg pros like Shine, who almost exclusively uses aggressive early timings and well-planned transitions. Or Soulkey, who used 2Base Roach/Bane all-ins to beat Innovation in the GSL finals - the most competitive SC2 tournament in the world. Starcraft II strategy is not so black and white as you say, and your personal opinion on how the game should be played is based on your own flawed mindset that all-ins = evil; and this is a way of thinking that needs to change. I don't think all-ins are "evil" but I do think that the way that you take advantage of low-level players by making them think that they are better than they are to gain a following and/or revenue is pretty shitty. That's pretty black and white. Insulting someone that enjoyed your guide? I'm pretty sure I just described many of your followers in some detail. I would say the majority. If people wanna be insulted by honesty, that's fine. I'm 6'1" 245 lbs. I'm a big guy. Go to college. Have a bit of a beer belly. I'd love to shed maybe 20 lbs so I can go for 2 hours instead of 1.5 in pickup basketball. Yeah, I'm a bit fatter than I'd like to be. That's honesty. If you wanna get upset by it, that's fine. It's pretty black and white. And to your 3rd, completely ridiculous point: Shine is the laughing stock of the pro scene, just as players like SuHoShin were when the game was a little less competitive. People with no skill that win because they ONLY know how to all-in, such as bit-by-bit.PRIME, are the butt of jokes in this, the great SC2 community. That's pretty black and white. Soulkey, one of the greatest MACRO players that SC2 has ever seen, used these tools in the GSL FINALS, where tens of thousands of dollars, and his livelihood, were on the line. And he used them as PART of his tool-kit to take down Innovation (did you watch game 7?) That's pretty... you get the idea. The line between all-in and macro play is not black and white. There's a fuzzy area. I would call builds like the 3base roach/baneling attack a build that falls in that fuzzy line. "an eco-bust". Your builds are "bust into greedy eco to catch up if it didn't work" And that, chief, is pretty black and white. | ||
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