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On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote:
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do.
Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686
Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
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On June 19 2013 07:36 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote:
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do. Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
I have a background in fighting games and was a high profile player on 8wayrun.com soul calibur player from 2008-2012. People like GleaM are not uncommon even in our community. They're the type who thinks throws are unfair or ringouts are cheap. They have a preconceived notion on how the game should be played and if anyone plays differently, condemns them. Point being, just ignore this 200 post count troll.
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On June 19 2013 07:36 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 00:42 SacredCoconut wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 GleaM wrote:
But why does this bother me? Because this kind of play isn't fun to play against. If I play safely, I hold the roach/baneling all-in, which is what this is. This isn't the solid 3base roach speedbane aggression that the top zerg players are using ZvT. This is a 2base roach/speedbane all-in that transitions into making a billion drones, 2 hatcheries, and no units, and PRAYING that the Terran doesn't build a seige tank, and PRAYING that if the Terran repels the attack, he doesn't counter with a strong biomine army with 1-3 tanks mixed in. ( I am a mid-masters random player that doesn't use gimmicky all-ins; perhaps this can give you some perspective as to why kind of play is almost offensive to me ) Damn people like you bother me in ladder, because its not fun to play against. If i all in i will kill you, but if i play safe macro style im behind. Its so offensive to me you try the get advantage by doing something i dont do. Err, if we both play solid macro play, how do I "get the advantage" if you don't all-in? And how "will you kill me" if you all-in? If you're inferring that you are a mindless all-in player that is higher than his skill level on ladder by doing all-ins, then yes, I will prolly beat you if you try to macro. Wondering what kind of player I am talking about? Here ya go, have fun with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417686Shoutout to the hand-of-god from our sunnyside up friend.
Your saying that if you play safe solid you will defend it, so if your losing to this that means your playing too greedy or not scouting enough. If your actuly defending them what the problem? There is nothing that says i cant be agressive and try to win before 20 minutes. I my self don't want to alweys play long games and to your information i don't use this build i just have kinda similar build which is litle later with the 3th base saturation.
So people who lose to this are usuly people who don't scout, just blindly follow build order or play too greedy. I think its much more fun to play against people who actuly respond to your actions and dont try to play too greedy. But there is nothing wrong with people that do that. If play someone that just defends until 40+ mark how does that exactly offense me? I may not like playing against that, but that should not offense me.
I think one of the most fun things is when opponents all in me. ZvT best example, because of my opening 11/11 and 8/8/8 are free win. Its great that my choise of playing safe and scouting gives me advatages.
What is that suposed to mean. Meaby in reality his just some macro heavy gm who is actuly trolling everyone with his posts?
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I have been messing around with rolling/speed roaches, different evo timings........ When I look at my losses using this build it becomes apparent scouting terran gas is so important when doing this build..... Sometimes I'll have hellbats or tanks catch me off guard when I try one of the greedier roach rushes if I'm going for a "heavy first barrel" = P'.
The best part about this build is that current meta has 0 banshees, perfect build. Once blizzard buffs banshees this timing may become weaker - time will tell
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So funny how most terrans here state that the first barrel will never do any damage...while Taeja was kicked out in the semifinals of Dreamhack by 14 Lings in his base. Looks like DH has chosen the wrong participants...the real pros are "rikter" and Co. They have 4 Hellions out before 6 minutes...impressive...while Taeja has popping up the first two at 6.00.
Seriously guys, this build is rock solid. Can it be stopped? Ofc, like any other build! Will it destroy one if not scouted? Absolutely! Is TangSC using it at high masters with success? Yes he does! Is it fun to play? Yes it is!
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On June 19 2013 20:05 VanGore78 wrote:
So funny how most terrans here state that the first barrel will never do any damage...while Taeja was kicked out in the semifinals of Dreamhack by 14 Lings in his base. Looks like DH has chosen the wrong participants...the real pros are "rikter" and Co. They have 4 Hellions out before 6 minutes...impressive...while Taeja has popping up the first two at 6.00.
Seriously guys, this build is rock solid. Can it be stopped? Ofc, like any other build! Will it destroy one if not scouted? Absolutely! Is TangSC using it at high masters with success? Yes he does! Is it fun to play? Yes it is!
While I don't agree with most people criticizing Tang's build there is a point to be made. With proper scputing nd reactions this build does more damage to the Zerg than the Terran. This will never work consistently on pro-level play. However, even in Masters pople have crap scouting and reactions. Which is why thisbuild should be able to destroy ladder for the most part.
As you saw in the OSL though, even with an incorrect reaction a superior player can still win. I am of course referring to Innovation's game against an aggressive hatchery. Innovation imo, made a very wrong response, but still won in the end.
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This is a really really interesting strat. Coming from ling/bling/muta since beta wol and beeing ignorant to other zvt strats has been a mistake. I tried this in a few games and it really feels like this is the style that best fits zerg in sc2. I would love to see how terran adapts later on. Should make for an interesting dynamic in the mu.
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Ok i after trying it out my self i still like the speed bling/roach bust with 3th base saturation after ling presure as you can keep reinforcing it. But i may find some uses for it, probely after roach attack instead of ling attack.
At moment the style is 3 barrel that is "limited" in its uses, but you can take the barrels and transform them to arrows. After you do that and add your own timings to it you can get hawkeye style. You choise right arrow(attack) for right timing and feel like badass when you shoot it and hit the target.
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
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On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote:
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
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On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote:
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
Tangs second barrel is borderline all in as well. Ofc it delays your economy, but at same time it has more power to it. Lot of players have used 10-15 roach rush after expansion and it has worked, and you can transition from it. Not all of the arrows are best with each other you have to find right one for right uses.
Example speedling into hatchery roach rush is just stupid. Hatchery roach rush into 1/1 speed roach smooth transition and sometimes when you can't kill them, but do enough damage you still go 2/2 roach hydra. From these the most common from pros would be straight to 2/2 muta ling bling for long time into 3/3 ultra to end the game. More attacking one for long game could be speedling into 1/1 bane bust into 2/2 muta ling bling into 3/3 ultra.
With this style lot of power comes from knowing what attack is good against what and why it works against it and using right one. Knowing how much damage you have to do with attack is important too. Some of them are not even supposed to have transition to it usualy.
In ladder you may not need to know more than the 3 barrel and 1-2 different to switch after 1st barrel or 2th barrel depending on how the terran plays. In bo3 and up you will need to know more to actualy be good in it. Guide was made for ladder use though so this may be little of topic.
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On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote:
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin.
Going pool first also delays your economy and midgame. I mean, if you want to, just look at the opener as a more economic version of a 14/14. You're making an economic tradeoff in order to secure map control, shut down cheese, and inflict possible damage. It's good to throw in once in awhile, and if you know the right cuts to make you can get back on track fairly easily. Especially if the T opened 3CC - then you're safe to take an earlier 3rd and drone to high heaven.
You do not have to do the second bust. By all means delay and get 3 base saturation and then proceed with a massive roach/bane allin while taking a 4th and hive for ultras.
The quick gas is a calculated sacrifice. After you get 88 gas you pull workers out anyhow. The hit hurts in the early game but you're making lings instead of drones so the point is moot.
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There is a lot of discussion on weather this is all-in, or how it can be stopped if Terran scouts it ect, but one thing I think a lot of people are missing is just its style. It plays as a MUCH more aggressive style bringing the game to the Terran instead of the other way around which is a nice refreshment. I don't know about the other zergs out there but speaking form one that has played excursively Zerg since the beta of WoL I am tired of being forced into the standard zvt game which is
Take a fast 3rd > defend mid game shannagins >survive to hive tech > Max out > Try and crush the terran.... try
It's just a very difference play style that is nice to switch to from time to time. Do I do it EVERYTIME I get a ZvT matchup no, does it have its flaws, yes, but is it nice to play this style after a few LONG drawn out macro ZvT games.... YUP
thanks for the guide again Tang, keep up the good work.
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Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping.
The second barrel hits exactly at the time he usually drops you with double medivacs, and you can't both have enough stuff at home to defend this AND have enough at the front.
So in conclusion, yes, the second barrel can to a lot of damage if the terran is a bad lazy defensive bastard.
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i guess telling people to attack an opponents base is what passes for a guide these days
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Longtime fan of your guides here.
Thanks for another legendary guide! You're awesome!
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On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote:
Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping.
Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you.
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On June 22 2013 00:00 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote:
Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping. Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you.
Right. But you dort base trade against terran. He lifts his stuff and you still die.
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On June 22 2013 00:30 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 00:00 TangSC wrote:On June 21 2013 09:24 Mahtasooma wrote:
Tang, sorry, but I literally can't get the second barrel to work unless the terran is turtling as hell and not dropping. Can't say for sure what the problem is, but I would check your 8 minute benchmark and see if you're reaching that. Then make sure your push is arriving no later than 11:00. There's no way Terran can hold the push and double drop you. Right. But you dort base trade against terran. He lifts historischen stufe and you still die.
I've never gotten into a base trade situation with the second bust. You're making Zerglings behind this until you feel safe to Drone your third, so drops really can't kill you if you're attacking at the correct time. You should just play a really safe/aggressive mid-game style. I'd look at the replay, and see if the steps leading up to the bust were timed right. Also see if you continued Zergling production after the bust, you may have switched to Drones too early.
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On June 20 2013 19:28 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:38 HanSomPa wrote:On June 20 2013 02:59 SacredCoconut wrote:
In this case posible arrows could be the 14 speedling, some hatchery roach rush, 2 base roach baneling with lair or no lair, 1/1 speed roach, 3 base 1/1 roach/bling bust, 2/2 roach hydra, 2/2 ling bling muta, 3/3 ultra. Sometimes only 1 arrow may be the best posibility, but sometimes you want to chain them together to get the best outcome. Arrow may not be best analogy, but could not think of another awesome one.
Spending Gas on the first bust significantly delays your economy and mid-game. Most of the options you describe are border-line allin. You do not have to do the second bust. By all means delay and get 3 base saturation and then proceed with a massive roach/bane allin while taking a 4th and hive for ultras.
I've been mixing that that in more and more, just building 10~ Roaches to fake a push/be safe, and droning the third and getting 2/2 earlier.
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your cheeses are amazing tang,
keep it on
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EPT
