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On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression...
Er from a zerg that is the definition of an all in/cheese. If your tier 2 frontal aggression doesn't do enough damage (this has to do a TON of damage for it to be worth it) you lose the game unless the terran is bad.
On June 28 2013 07:58 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 05:25 Steel wrote:How do you deal with hatch block and mech play? On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote:
your cheeses are amazing tang,
keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression... probably a build where you have to do a ton of dmg to stay in the game which is what this is Which is essentially every TvZ for Terran. If Terran doesn't do a ton of damage in he form of mid game pressure, any decent Zerg will win the game. Is every Terran build that relies on massive 3CC mid game prssure a cheese then?
Terran doesn't have to do a ton of damage in the mid game. As long as he trades cost efficiently terrans fine. Terran does NOT have to do economic damage to stay in the game (obviously it helps you to get ahead if you can). With how tvz works in hots terran no longer has a timer where they have to kill zerg or they lose like WoL. As long as terran can trade cost efficiently army wise then he'll be fine. If he loses a bunch of his bio and is losing a lot of units and doing very little to zerg, then yes you are right.
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On June 28 2013 05:25 Steel wrote:
How do you deal with hatch block and mech play?
Against hatch-block, if he sends a super-early worker, get down there with 2 Drones and don't let the engi bay even get started. If he does start it, at least you'll have 2 Drones already on the SCV to minimize the build time. Another option is to refill the gas and baneling bust (I do that pretty often against any kind of expansion block).
As for Mech, Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper works best. Ling/Ultra/Bane can work but it's not as reliable, you really need that blinding cloud in the later stages.
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On June 28 2013 16:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 09:19 DaemonX wrote:On June 23 2013 03:56 bypLy wrote:
your cheeses are amazing tang,
keep it on what the hell is your definition of cheese? cuz mine sure doesn't include 2-base tier-2 frontal aggression... Er from a zerg that is the definition of an all in/cheese. If your tier 2 frontal aggression doesn't do enough damage (this has to do a TON of damage for it to be worth it) you lose the game unless the terran is bad.
The definition of all-in/cheese is NOT a build that has to do damage to remain equal for the rest of the game. An all-in/cheese is an attack where all your eggs are in one basket. Either you win with it, or you lose.
The second barrel (Speed Roach/Ling/Bane) is far from all-in. Your goal with it isn't to win the game; your goal is to kill his army and deal whatever bonus economic damage you can. You have to do some damage for it to be worth it, you have to reset the Terran army count to give you time to Drone your third. That doesn't mean the build is any more all-in than a more reactionary style that saturates the third before heavy unit production; it's just a mid-game stylistic preference:
Option 1: Reach full 2 base saturation, build second barrel, attack and saturate the third.
Option 2: Reach full 2 base saturation, build a few roaches, defend and saturate the third.
Both options arrive at the same destination, it's just the journey that's different.
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Both options arrive at the same destination, it's just the journey that's different.
well said. ^_^
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On June 28 2013 16:29 blade55555 wrote:
Terran doesn't have to do a ton of damage in the mid game. As long as he trades cost efficiently terrans fine. Terran does NOT have to do economic damage to stay in the game (obviously it helps you to get ahead if you can). With how tvz works in hots terran no longer has a timer where they have to kill zerg or they lose like WoL. As long as terran can trade cost efficiently army wise then he'll be fine. If he loses a bunch of his bio and is losing a lot of units and doing very little to zerg, then yes you are right.
Only because the mid-game phase lasts forever in TvZ now. Zerg Hive Tech is still way more accessible than Skyterran. As I've seen from Life vs Innovation Daybreak game from the last GSL, it was essentially the same story as in WoL. Terran abusing BL immobility before the BL/Infestor/Corrupter ball gets way too big.
I suppose what Im trying to say is that Terran can never be passive the whole game. So there is a ticking timer for Terran, or else the Zrg will simply get BL/Infestor/Viper/Corrupter ball way faster than Terran can get a mech or skyterran army. Infestors are still really good. I don't see why I am seeing such a massive comeback of muta/ling/bling and Roach timing pushes.
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Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought?
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On June 29 2013 10:36 Lobotomist wrote:
Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought?
It is worth drone scouting. Very worth it. One, it suggests standard play from you(or it does not, depends on your opponents 'mind games man lol) and Two, it gives you an indication of Terran's capabilities. Gas First is actually stronger against this vs Zerg because it could be a number of things. A Hellbat Drop rush, old school Hellion Reactor, Banshees, siege tank push off of two bases, you get the idea. Whereas Gasless clearly indicates Macro gameplay or 11/11, therefore narrowing down your options and letting you hit this build's timings perfectly.
Mind though, gasless can still branch off into many things, be it two base allins, or hellbat drops, but gasless does mean that those options are avilable to the Terran later. Whereas with gas first you have to worry about those possibilities within a very immediate future.
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On June 29 2013 10:36 Lobotomist wrote:
Tang, how do you feel about drone scouting in ZvT? In the reps I saw, you didn't do it, but I think it's worth while to see if your opponent is going gas or not. Pertaining to the 3-barrel, it seems that the first speedling attach is most effective against gas (specifically reaper) openings, and that it might be worthwhile to abandon the build against a no-gas opening and either play a standard muta macro game or go for early roach pressure. Have you given this any thought?
I would only drone scout with hatch-first. I feel safe with the pool-first, and I never abandon the first bust because I really have had stable/consistent results with it. The only thing an early drone scout would reveal for me is whether he went gasless (in which case I'd send out my first 6 Lings to his expansion). That being said, nothing wrong with scouting more to make variations/responses to the Terran.
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On June 29 2013 07:43 HanSomPa wrote:
I suppose what Im trying to say is that Terran can never be passive the whole game. So there is a ticking timer for Terran, or else the Zerg will simply get BL/Infestor/Viper/Corrupter ball way faster than Terran can get a mech or skyterran army. Infestors are still really good. I don't see why I am seeing such a massive comeback of muta/ling/bling and Roach timing pushes.
That was Wings of Liberty, Not HOTS - Even Blade55555 said something along the lines of Terran don't have to do early restricting damage. That's just one person in this thread on this same page, anyone above diamond can tell you the same thing.
You may be right that Zerg can build up to a t3 advantage faster than terran (Slightly if at all any, I don't really agree with the statement but that seems to be a core tenet of your discussion so I will continue on with it) The thing is, no one goes right for vikings. Everyone goes hellions to harrass, drops, etc - The game isn't just one engagement at 30 minutes.
In Wings that was a problem, the infestor could shut down a ton of things like drops (Pre T3 phase to prevent damage) and vikings (t3 phase to protect blords), you could hold a force in place while the brood lords arrived. The slow style had a unit that made it possible.
The new infestor doesn't do 45 damage - they can't deal with vikings like they used to, IT don't deal with vikings like they used to, The bottom line is that Blord/infestor isn't mobile enough OR efficient enough vs drops + Targeted attacks. (The old range allowed you to keep your infestors while dealing with drops, now they die because of the reduced range)\
That's why you see professionals playing muta roaches banes instead of blords - Most intense, evenly matched games will not include broodlords, or at least that's what I have seen since early spring HOTS release.
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1st forgive for my bad English,
I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent)
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On July 05 2013 01:23 noeprellik wrote:
1st forgive for my bad English,
I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent)
It's almost a sure loss. So many lings with so few drones with 0 dmg is really bad.
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On July 05 2013 01:23 noeprellik wrote:
1st forgive for my bad English,
I would like to ask about 1st barrel. What should i do if my 14 lings come to his base but he completely closed his entrance. my lings only can hit his 2 depot and a factory pumping out 2 hellion ( i can't do enough damage to my opponent)
Your first barrel doesn't have to do significant damage for you to stay even. Start attacking the top of the ramp while you drone your expansion. When his first 2 hellions come out, position your lings by his expansion minerals. Keep droning and delay his expansion as long as you can. You'll be mining from your expansion; he won't be.
Just make sure, when you're not able to do much damage, that you're keeping up with the steps behind it - and use your buildings (evo chambers/roach warren/baneling nest) to wall your expansion ramp. That way, his hellions can't just run in and roast your Drones. Any Speedlings that don't die early on shouldn't be sacrificed - you can use them to help defend later (or contribute to your 2nd barrel).
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Clark Kent aka Superman or The Man of Steel
Tim Clark aka TangSC or The Man of Creep?
Thanks for the guide. Just a bit hard if your Macro is lacking like mine.
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Ok, so I have a question. Before starting using your pool first build and doing the first barrel, i was doing hatch pool gas (17 gas).
I used to allin every time vs cc first, and the way i would go about it with my old build was to keep drones on gas, drone up to 28, get speed first then baneling nest, and busting my terran opponent.
Now, my question is: If i want to allin a cc first after opening 15pool 15gas, what do you suggest? Since i get gas that early, i feel that it opens a lot of possibilities, but i don't really know how to capitalize on that. What are my options? How much do i drone?
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just a fancy way of saying speed roach bling all-in. i still don't see the point of making 14 lings unless you're very sure he's doing a reaper expand.
ok so yeah you get him to pull an scv or 2, take hits from a couple marines at the front, delay his CC operation for 40 secs or so (he can just get OC while waiting) but look what you have sacrificed in exchange...gas first and 5+ potential drones. you can't say that terran won't react optimally, pool into gas into 17 hatch...hmm, what else could it be?
also pointless putting up a screenshot of a terran player somehow letting his depot in the wall die to lings (as though it were a remote possibility), even plat players know how to repair it in time.
other than that, yeah, roach bling all in, well it works what can i say?
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Ok so i played a match today. The first barrel was successful, and I kept droning preparing for the second barrel, but then at 10:10 i got hellbat dropped, and with that medivac he was all over the place. I tried to bust anyway but wihtout great success. Should I abort the second barrel if he hellbat drops me? because obviously, i must waste a lot of time chasing after the medivacs, and it delays my push. Also, should i scout after the first barrel with an overlord?
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On July 08 2013 19:37 Asolmanx wrote:
Ok so i played a match today. The first barrel was successful, and I kept droning preparing for the second barrel, but then at 10:10 i got hellbat dropped, and with that medivac he was all over the place. I tried to bust anyway but wihtout great success. Should I abort the second barrel if he hellbat drops me? because obviously, i must waste a lot of time chasing after the medivacs, and it delays my push. Also, should i scout after the first barrel with an overlord?
You can overlord scout around 7:30, if you see Starport/armory you know exactly what's up. My usual response to hellbat drops is 1spine/spore in the middle of each mineral line (which is important because if you push, you won't have Roaches/Lings to defend your drones). You can still go for the push as long as you reach the fully saturated 2 bases first - you should try to avoid attacking with less than 44 workers, otherwise it's pretty all-in.
If you want to play a more defensive style, or if you feel you've been too delayed to push, you can build the spine/spore per base, build 12 Roaches to push out and "fake" a Roach/Ling/Bane attack. Then you build 12~ lings to use with the Spines/Spores/Queens to defend while you drone to fully saturated 3 bases. I do this often when I play against the same player more than once.
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On July 07 2013 20:20 Asolmanx wrote:
Now, my question is: If i want to allin a cc first after opening 15pool 15gas, what do you suggest? Since i get gas that early, i feel that it opens a lot of possibilities, but i don't really know how to capitalize on that. What are my options? How much do i drone?
The only all-ins that I've done after the 15p/15g are Roach/Ling and Ling/Bling. If you've ever seen the 28 Warren timing (8 Roaches + Speedlings at around 7:15), you can do something very similar to that. You'd just have to play around with when to refill the gas to optimize reaching 200gas to build the 8 Roaches. As for Ling/Bling, I do that as a response to being engi-blocked - could work well against CC first. If they get gas and widow mines though, any all-in will be substantially weakened.
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On June 13 2013 10:44 awakenx wrote:
Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x
I went on a losing streak after blind 3ccing every single game. Back to the early tank.
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EPT
