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On June 13 2013 23:12 ImperialFist wrote:
I really do believe in that mutas should be made to reject the mid-game drops. Either that or a ridiculous amount of static defense, which actually is viable imo.
Yeah you can definitely mix-in Mutalisks, in fact when your hive is building you'll often sit with about 800-1200 gas that could go into 8-12 Mutalisks to defend drops. I prefer the static defence/split up army to deal with drops, but working in Lair tech of your choice is absolutely an option - just know that it will delay your third bust.
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On June 13 2013 23:03 jbuck92 wrote:
Do you need to absolutely save all 14 of your lings with the first bust? So instead of really committing to an attack with it, just try to poke at the reactor a bit or delay mining, then run off before any of them die?
That's a good question, and it depends. If your Lings are attacking the reactor/depots and he has 3 marines mauling you, then that's a clear mistake. But if you're able to pick off 2-3 workers and actually kill the reactor, then it's a fair trade. If you can actually get in the main and mix it up with that mineral line, then you're in great shape moving forward. You always have the option, having lost all those Zerglings, to build a Spine Crawler beside your 2 Evolution Chambers (though I'd skip this 95% of games, instead relying on the expansion wall-off + Queens).
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No offense but I don't see this as being viable. First off, your zerglings will die at the wall, especially as oons the 2 hellions arrive. You're not gonna end the game with 14 lings unless your opponent is total $h!". Additionally, roaches against terrain is suicide for all the reasons you just pointed out. Tanks mines and bio all do massive eng to roaches. This build also seems to have a complete and total lack of drop defense. Terrain will just make a tank or two and your roaches will be worthless as a harrassing unit. I watched cats try something similar several times yesterday and got wrecked. Last two weeks I tried different roach pressures vs terrain and never won a game with them.
I don't see this as a viable strategy vs tarranz. What stops drops? The roaches are gonna force tanks or marauders if they aren't crushed by marine medivac alone, which means your late game ultras are gonna get wrecked.
Thanks but no thanks. Back to the drawing board pls.
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On June 13 2013 22:57 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 16:26 Decendos wrote:
isnt your opening pretty bad since yes it hardcounters reaper openings but is horrible vs highground CC first flash-style or 2 rax which (beneath reaper openings) are the most common T openers right now. I had the same thought when I started using the opening, but in my personal experience there haven't been many (if any) games where Terran ends up much ahead after the opening, even if the only damage is a delayed expansion. There are other advantages to having those 14 Speedlings out in the midgame, too - often when Hellions move out there's an opportunity to counter-attack and kill some workers/force a retreat.
hm imo vs decent players that play well you will be very behind economically vs CC first and do up to no damage and outright die vs good 2 rax play. what i do right now is to go hatch first on 4 player maps and from that on transition into your build and go for 10 dronescout on 2 player maps and either go hatch first into your build or do your build vs reaper first. works out pretty nicely. 
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Truly the guide of our times. I'll have to check out the replays to convince me that barrel one (the speedling attack) is worth doing. seems easy to shut down, depending on their build.
the roach/bane attack mid game is obviously strong. If you can scout them going tank before committing to the attack seems like it might be worth either going for a muta based macro game or a variation of barrel 2 with drop (like artosis is always talking about). Haven't had games go long enough to experiment with barrel 3.
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On June 14 2013 00:30 VerneV wrote:
No offense but I don't see this as being viable. First off, your zerglings will die at the wall, especially as oons the 2 hellions arrive. You're not gonna end the game with 14 lings unless your opponent is total $h!". Additionally, roaches against terrain is suicide for all the reasons you just pointed out. Tanks mines and bio all do massive eng to roaches. This build also seems to have a complete and total lack of drop defense. Terrain will just make a tank or two and your roaches will be worthless as a harrassing unit. I watched cats try something similar several times yesterday and got wrecked. Last two weeks I tried different roach pressures vs terrain and never won a game with them.
I don't see this as a viable strategy vs tarranz. What stops drops? The roaches are gonna force tanks or marauders if they aren't crushed by marine medivac alone, which means your late game ultras are gonna get wrecked.
Thanks but no thanks. Back to the drawing board pls.
Agree roaches are just so shitty that even innovation loses to them, because hes too confused in seeing them. Same with all the terran opponents idra/suppy/symbol/gowser play against.
My master opponents must be realy shitty to die to my 14 lings and/or my roaches and/or banes. I have at least 4-6 different builds i can kill terran with roaches, banes or lings. Edit. Terrans dont alweys die to the lings, banes or roaches, but they are so behind there is no way for them to recover.
These builds are not builds i just win ones in while. I had 70% win rate last season and 75% right now. The build im best with has lot of similarityes with this quide, but i have made my self after much trial and error. Tangs build looks solid, but i like my own variant of the idea more and have more practice knowledge about it.
Meaby you should get back to drawing boards why they dont work for you.
hm imo vs decent players that play well you will be very behind economically vs CC first and do up to no damage and outright die vs good 2 rax play. what i do right now is to go hatch first on 4 player maps and from that on transition into your build and go for 10 dronescout on 2 player maps and either go hatch first into your build or do your build vs reaper first. works out pretty nicely.
What 2 rax are we talking about? Why would you die to 2 racks with 15 pool? As tang alredy stated the pool first is optional and i like it in the match up over hatch first at moment. Against terran that dosent scv scout you can even go for baneling bust instead of just ling agression, but there is good chance of doing damage with just lings if terran does not scv scout.
With the builds tang has when you get more knowledge you can actuly skip steps to get next step faster. For instance if you see that they are not gona take low ground expansion you just make drones instead lings, you may be behind, but not as much as sending lings against wall (just having the option to presure makes good terrans hestitate taking the expansion before hellions are out). Other posibility is to overlord scout before second attack to just skip it and go for faster 2/2 and infestation pit.
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Hi Tang
I am a big fan of your guides
I tried this one today and notices some little mistakes while doing it.
You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order
At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
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I almost reported this for "Fucking awesome". Not sure if that's something we should be doing.
Anyway, you put a fuckton of effort into these guides and videos, Tang, and I'm always so immensely pleased to read your posts. Keep em comin, dude. This stuff is immensely helpful <3
EDIT: Wouldn't the early pool decimate 2 rax pressure? I don't know why these questions keep coming up. 2 rax is meant as a direct counter to the classic hatch first, no?
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Yea as an ex-diamond protoss (still not good I know) and a now struggling gold zerg, the benchmark layouts should help me improve my mechanics in general. Cheers, thanks for the effort and responses to questions!
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On June 13 2013 21:11 konicki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote:
to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. An aggressive build is meant to forward your economy by slowing theirs, and this hits before your hellions are out especially if you built a bunker, and even if you did build a bunker, on very few maps can the bunker cover both your expansion and your ramp. I dislike how you put it in such a snide way as if he did no research into this and played against pure scrubs. When Leenocks 3-3 ultras came out, people like you were writing posts like, "omg, 2 base totally kills this straight out... duh" and it didn't and it doesn't. If you have a deeper understanding of the game you can write a better post than: "this simply dies to this".
Youre missing my point: you aren't really slowing down much of anything if the attack does no damage. Im currently doing a reactor hellion expand into hellbat drops vs zerg and I can promise you that when this attack hits I will have my expo up, the bunker with the 2 marines and 4 hellions by the time the attack hits. My armory goes down at 5:15, which means the factory is finished at 4:10, with the reactor on shortly after. Hellions build in 30s, I could actually have 6 hellions when you hit if I chose to delay hellbats. I will have no wall either, so feel free to run in if you want: theres nothing that those speedlings are going to do. I give up a little bit of my scv count by delaying my expo a small amount in getting factory first, but since Im trading those few scvs for quick hellbats its really not a problem to make up that difference with the hellbat drops, both because I will either kill drones directly or force them into static D. This is an example of how an aggressive opening forwards my economy by slowing down his. The difference between the two is that my attack is much more likely to do damage than this 530 speedling attack. The bunker in question can cover my ramp and a portion of the mineral patches. It doesn't need 100% coverage on the nat because I can use the hellions to make up the difference. I believe this is possible on every single map, with the bunker placed somewhere between the geyser and the ramp.
The second barrel gets mentioned only because I know the hellbat timing; basically, there are some pretty strong harass options that this build would be hurt by in the midgame, and its worth noting that they will hit before you have your second barrel ready to go, which disrupts your timing. Something to consider.
I read and re-read my post and I dont see anything snide at all. It was specifically in response to the guy who said there was nothing you can do against the first barrel and to just accept it, when in fact there are plenty of options to stop it like this, and they arent even all that hard. This isnt theory crafting either, people do stuff like this to me all the time, its easily held. If the attack doesn't stand to do much damage, Z would be better off just investing in 7-8 more drones instead of the lings. Barrel 2 and 3 can be more effective, but with that much gas invested into banelings youd better do something big with them. I make no comment on the players he plays; Ive botched against speedling attacks before by not paying attention to my hellions, and if you lose the hellions you really are in trouble...but again, it aint hard to not lose the hellions if you pay just the tiniest bit of attention. I also make no comments about "this simply dies to this". Holding the attack is in no way a guarantee of victory, but its not hard to hold.
Basically this is something that might work up to gold league as intended, but beyond that youre probably better off going hatch first, and not doing the early ling attack. Put it this way: If you would in fact have been able to kill or cripple the other guy with 14 speedlings at 530, youre probably in good shape to kill him with a slightly later, more powerful attack, so its not like making the drones instead of the lings is giving up some great opportunity.
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On June 14 2013 04:13 unarcher wrote:
You forgot to put metabolic boost timing in build order
At 58 supply, you should add to produce a lot of overlords to produce the 21 roachs (I was supply blocked because I did not produce overlords in time)
You're right I forgot those, thanks for pointing it out. Updated build to include Zergling speed at 18 and 5 Overlords at 58.
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I like the thinking put into the 1-2-3 punch style you have here. It is not a for sure type of build but it does force a macro Terran to be honest and know how to defend several strong timings. It IS a very meta-gaming build as it approaches the matchup from the point of view of someone looking at the most common strategies and finding a build that while might be bad vs a range of strategies but is good vs the very common ones.
Some Terran Tips:
The biggest issue you can have vs a style like this is to lose a lot to the first barrel. The two most common openings that a macro Terran would be using are CC first and Reaper FE (both into reactor hellions and 3rd CC).
If you scout pool first from any player you should be building a bunker asap in a very defensive position in your natural and, ideally, be building your CC in your main. If you opened with a Reapers you should pull them back as soon as possible to help defend. They are of no use to you dead and the fact that he is on one base is enough information for the time being. I, personally, would have a bunker at the top of my ramp as well as one in my natural and I would be adding additional high hit point buildings that my build normally needs in a defensive fashion in case of a one or two base bane bust. Once I have 4-6 hellions, I would push out and take my natural and regain map control for the time being.
The second barrel is something that you should scout before it hits. Ideally, you have tanks. I am a biomine player and I will be getting tanks vs this. Additionally, extra bunkers and good sim city are needed. I can't stress enough how mines will not cut it (most of the time) as the splash damage in your army if the zerg goes for this timing. Honestly, vs pool first openings I would be very likely to go for some kind of 1-2 tank before hellion transition (retaking my natural once I have a tank instead of once I have hellions) as a pool first player is almost always going for a second timing if the first does nothing.
The last barrel is really just this builds refined way to end a game that the zerg is ahead in. If you take no real damage from the first two barrels this barrel will be very easy. If you trade with the zerg it can be a bit more even and if he does a lot of free damage to you it will be easy for him. The goal you should have as a Terran player vs a player that is going for this kind of end game will be to hit a pre-hive timing push. Be active in scouting so that you do not miss when the Hive starts. You should be aiming to do some kind of tank bio push that hits at the earliest at 170-180 food. Keep scanning or using a medivac to check for a hive and do NOT push if the hive has not started yet.
To put in the most simple way of thinking:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
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I like the style of the guide and there's so much detail. Thanks Tang!
Question - it seems that this would be significantly weaker versus heavy tank play given the units involved. How do you deal with tanks?
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On June 14 2013 04:38 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 21:11 konicki wrote:On June 13 2013 10:33 rikter wrote:
to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.
You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.
Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. An aggressive build is meant to forward your economy by slowing theirs, and this hits before your hellions are out especially if you built a bunker, and even if you did build a bunker, on very few maps can the bunker cover both your expansion and your ramp. I dislike how you put it in such a snide way as if he did no research into this and played against pure scrubs. When Leenocks 3-3 ultras came out, people like you were writing posts like, "omg, 2 base totally kills this straight out... duh" and it didn't and it doesn't. If you have a deeper understanding of the game you can write a better post than: "this simply dies to this". Youre missing my point: you aren't really slowing down much of anything if the attack does no damage. Im currently doing a reactor hellion expand into hellbat drops vs zerg and I can promise you that when this attack hits I will have my expo up, the bunker with the 2 marines and 4 hellions by the time the attack hits. My armory goes down at 5:15, which means the factory is finished at 4:10, with the reactor on shortly after. Hellions build in 30s, I could actually have 6 hellions when you hit if I chose to delay hellbats. I will have no wall either, so feel free to run in if you want: theres nothing that those speedlings are going to do. I give up a little bit of my scv count by delaying my expo a small amount in getting factory first, but since Im trading those few scvs for quick hellbats its really not a problem to make up that difference with the hellbat drops, both because I will either kill drones directly or force them into static D. This is an example of how an aggressive opening forwards my economy by slowing down his. The difference between the two is that my attack is much more likely to do damage than this 530 speedling attack. The bunker in question can cover my ramp and a portion of the mineral patches. It doesn't need 100% coverage on the nat because I can use the hellions to make up the difference. I believe this is possible on every single map, with the bunker placed somewhere between the geyser and the ramp. The second barrel gets mentioned only because I know the hellbat timing; basically, there are some pretty strong harass options that this build would be hurt by in the midgame, and its worth noting that they will hit before you have your second barrel ready to go, which disrupts your timing. Something to consider. I read and re-read my post and I dont see anything snide at all. It was specifically in response to the guy who said there was nothing you can do against the first barrel and to just accept it, when in fact there are plenty of options to stop it like this, and they arent even all that hard. This isnt theory crafting either, people do stuff like this to me all the time, its easily held. If the attack doesn't stand to do much damage, Z would be better off just investing in 7-8 more drones instead of the lings. Barrel 2 and 3 can be more effective, but with that much gas invested into banelings youd better do something big with them. I make no comment on the players he plays; Ive botched against speedling attacks before by not paying attention to my hellions, and if you lose the hellions you really are in trouble...but again, it aint hard to not lose the hellions if you pay just the tiniest bit of attention. I also make no comments about "this simply dies to this". Holding the attack is in no way a guarantee of victory, but its not hard to hold. Basically this is something that might work up to gold league as intended, but beyond that youre probably better off going hatch first, and not doing the early ling attack. Put it this way: If you would in fact have been able to kill or cripple the other guy with 14 speedlings at 530, youre probably in good shape to kill him with a slightly later, more powerful attack, so its not like making the drones instead of the lings is giving up some great opportunity.
thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build.
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thanks! You said it way better than I could've. I know from my games vs terran last season the early ling pressure is always worse than an economy build.
That is just so not true... Meaby its not greatest against cc first, but it is not unusable against it. Against reaper expand other hands its great as well as some of the gimmicky openings like 2 racks or 8/8/8 which are FREE win. Not every terran scv scouts, have good building placement or when they scout the pool first overreact and you can scout this and still be ahead/even. For enyone lower than master the disadvantage wont even matter that much, life fucking won games after going 10p which does nothing.
By the way i watched your stream and it dosent realy matter if you do hatch first or pool first the problems in your play are else where.
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How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build?
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Hatch-first is the more usual/standard approach to opening ZvT, and I don't think anyone is saying this will change any time soon. Still, let's not be so quick to condemn pool-first openings. There are different openings with different advantages, some players like Life even 10pool in ZvT. The worst-case scenario with any pool-first aggression is that you do slightly less than equalizing damage, in which case you move into the mid game at a slight disadvantage.
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On June 14 2013 07:09 jbuck92 wrote:
How do you recommend dealing with an engineering bay block in your natural when using this build?
Good question, it's annoying if you don't get on it right away. If an SCV comes that early, get a second Drone down there asap to prevent him from getting any extra time spent building the Engineering Bay. Also, you can send the expansion-Drone a little early so that if you see an SCV you can build the hatch on 16 instead of 17 just to be safe. But with 2 Drones, even if he starts a structure you shouldn't be delayed more than 15 seconds on the hatchery (and the expansion hatchery timing does not effect your first barrel since all those Zerglings are built from the main larva).
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On June 14 2013 05:26 vaderseven wrote:
1. Scout pool first => 2 Bunkers, 2nd CC in main, Tank before Hellions
2. Take Natural then poke with Hellions and maybe Scan => see roach bane => add 2 more bunkers and strong sim city in natural and 3rd and add more tanks
3. Scout for Hive timing while adding more tanks and upgrades and production etc etc => see Hive start => push asap once I have 6 tanks OR see later hive (after you have 170 food) => push once hive starts and maxed
I think the tanks are perhaps an overreaction.
Here's SeleCT crushing this build on ladder today (game starts at ~2:37:00): http://www.twitch.tv/selectkr/b/416413978
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This is so awesome! For the longest time I had really been wanting a 'build' for Zerg. It makes it a lot easier to learn a race when you have a sort of guide to your engagement philosophy and the purpose of your build. Although in the long run I would intend to learn a very reactive style for Zerg, this really helps to give a framework while I learn the flow of the race.
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EPT
