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I concentrate EMP's more on immortals and archons. Sure if possible I also EMP templars, but tanks also kill templars fast. While you really want EMPs to kill archons and immortals fast.
Regarding ravens and seeker missiles, there is a significant delay before they will hit, you got quite some time to split them off. And the problem is HTs. They will feedback ravens without delay. So if you launch from shortrange you lose all ravens to EMPs (many before they launch), if you do it from long range he can just move back a bit and they all fail.
You are correct vikings are important, but their problem is (besides that toss air is pretty good against them) that if he doesn't go air it is really easy to overproduce them. I have lost at least as many games to toss due to viking overproduction as due to not enough vikings. Sure you can land them, but the result generally isn't pretty, and it was definately not a great investment of your resources.
The only reason I think mech works somewhat against toss is that it is only a minority that uses mech, so toss aren't used to dealing with mech. As simple example, luckily on ladder the vast majority of the toss attack directly into my army, while they could also have walked around my army and just gone for my base. And then I would have to unsiege tanks and run after a toss army that can turn around at any time. Also for example a group of raiding blink stalkers aren't exactly easy to counter with mech.
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On May 29 2013 04:31 Markwerf wrote:
Long story short, what is stopping blizzard from adding a little upgrade that buffs tanks and/or thors against protoss. Bonus to mechanical might be risky as it could spoil the fun in TvT but with careful consideration it can be done.
Because of smartfiring and the way units clump in the SC2 engine. If anything I wonder why Blizzard hasn't tried or been asked to try changing tanks to shoot a little shell projectile thing with a fast travel speed so that it would be possible to force tanks to "overkill", then maybe they could have more damage without breaking the game a la 2010 TvZ. Side effect would be PDD stopping tank shots, but that doesn't seem too terrible. Then if the T matchups become all cool and dynamic and shit and zealot bombing comes back and all these things, maybe Browder or Kim could have an epiphany like in the movies where all the events of the past 3 years flash before their eyes and they suddenly realize...
the colossus...
what the hell were we thinking...
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seems to me that unit that really needs to change is the thor. At least make its collision box much much smaller. Thors require so much baby sitting its annoying and even then they still get stuck behind this or that and become a giant paper weight when you desperately need them in battle. Why not give them the over step that colossus has....is there a reason that they dont get this? I guess you can argue that 20 scv's sitting under a thor would make it invincible but really the easy solution to that is just increase a scvs threat when healing a thor or dont even worry about it since storm would be hilarious
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I feel the biggest problem with mech atm is t he mobility (vs t and z) combined with the new big and open maps, there are almost no maps where u could splitmap and/or get a 4th base easy, so if u want to get a 4th base u are always spread out and its hard to defend and reposition to every path your opponent can attack from.
To make it more viable it would be good if u could be a litte bit more mobile and move out on the map a little bit safer and my suggestiuon would be to make Drilling Claws (widow mine upgrade) a "global" upgrade that would allow every mech tranformation to be faster (widow mines, tanks, thors, vikings maybe aswell).
Then u could move out more aggressive and defend on open maps better without a huge fear that ur opponent will catch u once out of possiotion and unsieged and just overrun u easy.
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I have found that using hellbat drops to soft contain protoss in their base while taking a fast third and getting relatively slower tanks is a safe way to start meching and get an early economic lead, as the protoss I play generally have a hard time dealing with hellbat drops, especially if they took a fast third. With a fast third, it isn't unreasonable to have a maxed out army in 13 or 14 minutes, and then you can just a-move the protoss (if you have been making vikings). This is just my experience with mech, and I have been practicing with teammates (high master/gm) who take very few games off of this style. Medivacs make HotS mech very strong in TvT, yet in TvP people don't seem to like (or have the mechanics) to keep medivacs all over the map, threatening the counterattack.
Everyone on this thread blaming blizzard is being absolutely absurd. They made the game, and if you want to play mech, then figure out the best way to do it. The fact that so much of this thread about the possibilities of mech is complaints about hellbats and tanks is so sad, as they don't realize the potential that these new units have.
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On June 19 2013 23:58 SuperYo1000 wrote:
seems to me that unit that really needs to change is the thor. At least make its collision box much much smaller. Thors require so much baby sitting its annoying and even then they still get stuck behind this or that and become a giant paper weight when you desperately need them in battle. Why not give them the over step that colossus has....is there a reason that they dont get this? I guess you can argue that 20 scv's sitting under a thor would make it invincible but really the easy solution to that is just increase a scvs threat when healing a thor or dont even worry about it since storm would be hilarious
Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the thor. I would rather them just get rid of it and replace it with a modified warhound. Not the a-move warhound from beta but a goliath-esque unit.
I always liked the way they looked and it is a shame they spent so much time/resources on the model/voice actor for the warhound and he isn't even present 
On June 14 2013 10:06 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:31 Markwerf wrote:
Long story short, what is stopping blizzard from adding a little upgrade that buffs tanks and/or thors against protoss. Bonus to mechanical might be risky as it could spoil the fun in TvT but with careful consideration it can be done. I believe Blizzard stated why in not-so-subtle manners. They don't want strategies that force turtling, resulting in boring and long games. Read "Situation Report" and how strong Blizzard's anti-mech sentiment is. You can't expect honest words out of a corporation's PR. But Blizzard said in many times in many words "No" to mech TvP. I think it's time to let it go until LOTV beta.
Such a shame really. BW TvP was by far my favorite match-up. It had so many unique features to it. Dragoons with range attacking bunkers while scvs had to repair (until the siege tank came out), vulture micro vs individual units and in major fights (deploying all the spider mines). Mine dragging from the protoss point of view. Terran trying their hardest to contain the P with tanks/mines/vultures/turrets/bunkers and the protoss busting out with the help of arbiters.
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On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz. So don't cry on a forum but analyze some reps and then do dat shit yourself for at least two months. Come back after those two months and write your opinion!
Well, that's just my opinion. I don't know where you're pulling my rank from, HTOMario isn't GM in HotS, he's top8 master like me and I'm at his MMR. So congratulations on pulling the league card.
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On June 20 2013 13:16 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz. So don't cry on a forum but analyze some reps and then do dat shit yourself for at least two months. Come back after those two months and write your opinion! Well, that's just my opinion. I don't know where you're pulling my rank from, HTOMario isn't GM in HotS, he's top8 master like me and I'm at his MMR. So congratulations on pulling the league card.
well he is Master this season doesn't mean he isn't GM in Host lmao, there was 3 seasons hots before
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I have been trying HTO mario's mech style. It is pretty strong. It is not like bio where you have to split you army so much and kiting non-stop. You can battle the protoss army head on.
But I do not feel it is like mech in TvT or TvZ, where you army is much stronger and can crush/lay siege on your opponent's army directly.
I have been thinking a mine, tank, thor, raven style. Thor + Raven will deny detections, Tanks will kill Protoss aoe units to protect the mines, as well as to siege. The mines will buffer the entire army, kill immortals...etc.
(Add Hellbats and Vikings according to protoss response)
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There's 2 problems. Pro players don't like thinking for themselves and don't try this enough. What Pro players don't try, amateurs don't copy.
Mech is not weaker than bio, but it doesn't work on a lot of maps.
I've been promoting the use of barracks as terran force fields in every single tvp mech thread i've seen up to date, but it seems like nobody wants to pick up easy wins. gg
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On May 24 2013 01:35 MockHamill wrote:
But the problem I see is this, in TvP mech have all the classic downsides of mech, but is not actually stronger than bio. A maxed out sieged up Terran army with lots and tanks and buffer units can still be a-moved over by the Protoss army, something that could never happen in TvT and very seldom happen in TvZ.
Protoss is actually stronger in a straight mid/late game engagement both compared to bio, and compared to mech. Only by hurting the Protoss players economy by splitting the army in many small groups and do simultaneous attacks can Terran gradually build up enough advantage to actually win the game. Bio is better against Protoss when split up, but mech is not.
This is categorically false. Even if it's pure immortals vs pure tanks, tanks still win (when army sizes are big enough, you can do a search for this having been tested), a more normal composition sees a one-sided landslide victory for mech vs Toss. Protoss cannot kill a mech army in (or even two) attacks.
The weakness of mech is that while Protoss sucks at harass, they have a very strong ability to all-in you where your army is not. The problem for mech is not the fights (Protoss are actually the worst vs mech in straight-up fights), it's blink stalkers and warp prisms.
Protoss can't directly take on the mech army, but it's much easier for them to just kill all of the Terran production and bases than it is for any other races.
Also, Terran bio + hellbats rapes the crap out of Protoss in the mid-game if Protoss doesn't have superior positioning (eg: Terran attacks into storms). Late-game Protoss gets too strong to attack into, but it's not really strong enough to attack Terran either if Terran composes their army correctly (which is IMO the hardest part of TvP).
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On June 20 2013 00:14 GoOdy wrote:
I feel the biggest problem with mech atm is t he mobility (vs t and z) combined with the new big and open maps, there are almost no maps where u could splitmap and/or get a 4th base easy, so if u want to get a 4th base u are always spread out and its hard to defend and reposition to every path your opponent can attack from.
To make it more viable it would be good if u could be a litte bit more mobile and move out on the map a little bit safer and my suggestiuon would be to make Drilling Claws (widow mine upgrade) a "global" upgrade that would allow every mech tranformation to be faster (widow mines, tanks, thors, vikings maybe aswell).
Then u could move out more aggressive and defend on open maps better without a huge fear that ur opponent will catch u once out of possiotion and unsieged and just overrun u easy.
Sorry but are u real GoOdy ?  Can you tell me what maps u veto ?
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I think it is sorta viable in the early-midish game. I have used it before and steam rolled protoss (that just massed immortal and chargelots). I know I am not top echelon tier terran but there is some viability in using mech (especially with Hellbats). I know Bogus (or Innovation) uses bio/mech in TvP all the time and he wins (Marauder / Hellbats).
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 20 2013 17:01 TigerKarl wrote:
There's 2 problems. Pro players don't like thinking for themselves and don't try this enough. What Pro players don't try, amateurs don't copy.
Mech is not weaker than bio, but it doesn't work on a lot of maps.
I've been promoting the use of barracks as terran force fields in every single tvp mech thread i've seen up to date, but it seems like nobody wants to pick up easy wins. gg
Are you insinuating that pro players haven't tried out mech TvP extensively? I'm pretty sure they would know better than anyone the shortcommings, and good things about mech. Obviously when they compared mech performance to bio in TvP, they found Bio superior. And it is superior.
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On June 20 2013 20:04 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:35 MockHamill wrote:
But the problem I see is this, in TvP mech have all the classic downsides of mech, but is not actually stronger than bio. A maxed out sieged up Terran army with lots and tanks and buffer units can still be a-moved over by the Protoss army, something that could never happen in TvT and very seldom happen in TvZ.
Protoss is actually stronger in a straight mid/late game engagement both compared to bio, and compared to mech. Only by hurting the Protoss players economy by splitting the army in many small groups and do simultaneous attacks can Terran gradually build up enough advantage to actually win the game. Bio is better against Protoss when split up, but mech is not. This is categorically false. Even if it's pure immortals vs pure tanks, tanks still win (when army sizes are big enough, you can do a search for this having been tested), a more normal composition sees a one-sided landslide victory for mech vs Toss. Protoss cannot kill a mech army in (or even two) attacks.
Just tested it with 25 tanks vs 20 immortals. If immortals are one blob tanks just win. If I split them into two groups and then a-move them (just to make sure they don't prevent each other from shooting), immortals easily win.
Anyway regardless of that, I have a nice composition for you that results in a one-sided landslide victory for toss vs mech. Air units...
I've been promoting the use of barracks as terran force fields
Do you have a replay of that? Because I pretty much cannot see that working ever. If you think toss has a huge mobility advantage vs mech, imagine having to wait on floating barracks. You have to siege up really early also, since otherwise those barracks will never land. Not to mention they also aren't exactly free. Honestly mass producing bunkers with a bio army seems more viable to me.
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On June 19 2013 22:43 Sissors wrote:
I concentrate EMP's more on immortals and archons. Sure if possible I also EMP templars, but tanks also kill templars fast. While you really want EMPs to kill archons and immortals fast.
Regarding ravens and seeker missiles, there is a significant delay before they will hit, you got quite some time to split them off. And the problem is HTs. They will feedback ravens without delay. So if you launch from shortrange you lose all ravens to EMPs (many before they launch), if you do it from long range he can just move back a bit and they all fail.
You are correct vikings are important, but their problem is (besides that toss air is pretty good against them) that if he doesn't go air it is really easy to overproduce them. I have lost at least as many games to toss due to viking overproduction as due to not enough vikings. Sure you can land them, but the result generally isn't pretty, and it was definately not a great investment of your resources.
The only reason I think mech works somewhat against toss is that it is only a minority that uses mech, so toss aren't used to dealing with mech. As simple example, luckily on ladder the vast majority of the toss attack directly into my army, while they could also have walked around my army and just gone for my base. And then I would have to unsiege tanks and run after a toss army that can turn around at any time. Also for example a group of raiding blink stalkers aren't exactly easy to counter with mech.
Why in the world would you try to chase down the toss army instead of going for a base trade? Your buildings can float and the toss cannot do that.
In my experience with mech. Hellbat Thor seems to kill the toss if they are going gateway HT or if they are going gateway void ray. I think what counters Hellbat thor the hardest are immortal/col builds or if they are going carrier gateway. If you make starports though you can pump out vikings if they are going heavy col and you can get ghosts for EMP if they are going heavy immortals and if you end up going air you have the benefit of already having your air armor upgraded.
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On June 20 2013 13:16 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 20:30 rEalGuapo wrote:On June 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
Honestly, bio is straight up better. A lot of P just don't play vs. much mech so I can see how it might seem strong, it would be a pocket composition at the most. Tanks just suck against Protoss. Says the mid to high Silver Terran that knows his shit. Some pretty bad Terrans got pretty damn far playing mech. That obviously shows how bad it is. Tanks suck? You suck using tanks. You played 5 Mech games over 2 months with no idea of what your build could look like and lost 4 of those games. Obviously mech sucks! Take a month, take half a year to figure it out and THEN you can know if it's any good or not, but maybe you are just not good with mech because your strengths are not in army positioning but in stutter stepping? But most of you played a single game of Mech sitting back in your base trying to get a good Tank count but die to a fast Oracle or a Blink all-in and run crying to your mommy. If you haven't tried it, you cannot know. If you haven't tried to make it work hard you haven't tried at all. So 99.9% of the Terrans saying "mech is bad because Immortal OP" just never ever tried. Fuck them. Decide for yourself and don't give up as soon as you see a tiny little problem. . . To sum up: Unless you gave it your honest best shot over a long preiod of time you don't know if it is better or not. If you gave it your best shot over a lont time you would be like HTOMario and run from mid Diamong into GM ezpz. So don't cry on a forum but analyze some reps and then do dat shit yourself for at least two months. Come back after those two months and write your opinion! Well, that's just my opinion. I don't know where you're pulling my rank from, HTOMario isn't GM in HotS, he's top8 master like me and I'm at his MMR. So congratulations on pulling the league card.
??
I'm top 100 grandmasters minimum this season. rank 70 at the moment I think. The only season I haven't been gm is last season because I spent a lot of time goofing off and trying out new things on europe.
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On June 20 2013 20:04 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:35 MockHamill wrote:
But the problem I see is this, in TvP mech have all the classic downsides of mech, but is not actually stronger than bio. A maxed out sieged up Terran army with lots and tanks and buffer units can still be a-moved over by the Protoss army, something that could never happen in TvT and very seldom happen in TvZ.
Protoss is actually stronger in a straight mid/late game engagement both compared to bio, and compared to mech. Only by hurting the Protoss players economy by splitting the army in many small groups and do simultaneous attacks can Terran gradually build up enough advantage to actually win the game. Bio is better against Protoss when split up, but mech is not. This is categorically false. Even if it's pure immortals vs pure tanks, tanks still win (when army sizes are big enough, you can do a search for this having been tested), a more normal composition sees a one-sided landslide victory for mech vs Toss. Protoss cannot kill a mech army in (or even two) attacks.
What?? Protoss ground armies can 1a 15-20 Tanks with ease. Only Ghosts can give Terran the upper hand.
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On July 01 2013 07:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 20:04 althaz wrote:On May 24 2013 01:35 MockHamill wrote:
But the problem I see is this, in TvP mech have all the classic downsides of mech, but is not actually stronger than bio. A maxed out sieged up Terran army with lots and tanks and buffer units can still be a-moved over by the Protoss army, something that could never happen in TvT and very seldom happen in TvZ.
Protoss is actually stronger in a straight mid/late game engagement both compared to bio, and compared to mech. Only by hurting the Protoss players economy by splitting the army in many small groups and do simultaneous attacks can Terran gradually build up enough advantage to actually win the game. Bio is better against Protoss when split up, but mech is not. This is categorically false. Even if it's pure immortals vs pure tanks, tanks still win (when army sizes are big enough, you can do a search for this having been tested), a more normal composition sees a one-sided landslide victory for mech vs Toss. Protoss cannot kill a mech army in (or even two) attacks. What?? Protoss ground armies can 1a 15-20 Tanks with ease. Only Ghosts can give Terran the upper hand.
Well... that's not entirely true. The biggest problem with a protoss army is the immortal buffer, as long as you can get rid of it efficiently and have decent splash the army will melt. For example hunter seeker missiles or widow mines could do the same thing.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On July 01 2013 07:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 20:04 althaz wrote:On May 24 2013 01:35 MockHamill wrote:
But the problem I see is this, in TvP mech have all the classic downsides of mech, but is not actually stronger than bio. A maxed out sieged up Terran army with lots and tanks and buffer units can still be a-moved over by the Protoss army, something that could never happen in TvT and very seldom happen in TvZ.
Protoss is actually stronger in a straight mid/late game engagement both compared to bio, and compared to mech. Only by hurting the Protoss players economy by splitting the army in many small groups and do simultaneous attacks can Terran gradually build up enough advantage to actually win the game. Bio is better against Protoss when split up, but mech is not. This is categorically false. Even if it's pure immortals vs pure tanks, tanks still win (when army sizes are big enough, you can do a search for this having been tested), a more normal composition sees a one-sided landslide victory for mech vs Toss. Protoss cannot kill a mech army in (or even two) attacks. What?? Protoss ground armies can 1a 15-20 Tanks with ease. Only Ghosts can give Terran the upper hand.
For a blue poster you're pretty hyperbolic at times.
It really does depend on what the army is. Pure gateway armies just die to that many tanks for example.
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EPT
